For the consideration of physicists.

[RandomHero]

Assuming an environment with no gravity or atmosphere, would a .46 guage string tuned to E ring indefinitely if anchored between tmo points which were incapable of absorbing the kinetic energy of the string? (These points are not a matter of debate, they are both impossible and my plans for the world's best saddle and nut material. ;D)

[Trey]

There is no such thing as perpetual motion, it cannot exist even in a vacuum, so I say no it would not ring forever.

[R]

the string might vibrate but you would not hear it ring since sound is a mechanical wave and cannot travel through space void of particles since there no atmosphere then there would be no air molecules to transfer the sound to your ears how long it would vibrate beats me

[JohnH]

Even a magnetic pickup placed nearby to detect the sound would draw a little energy from the string, causing vibration to decay. Without that, the decay would depend on damping within the material of the string. Not much for steel, but eventually this would convert the vibration into heat in the string, which would then radiate out into the greater vastness of outer space.

This would be the most boring guitar solo in the universe, because it has only one note, it goes on for ages and you can't hear it!

[jdtogo]

Johnh : now thats funny ! so if sound can't move in outer space ! why or how do we pick up sound wave from outer space ?

[RandomHero]

We don't pick up sound waves from outer space. Sound is a waveform disturbance in a molecular substance, that being a very loose definition. You can hear sound through air, water, or anything else made of matter. Space has no matter, therefore there's nothing for the waves of sound to move -through-.

[Trey]

We pick up radio waves from space, and other forms of radiation, not actual sound.

[RandomHero]

Indeedy.

[bam]

thus, it wont ring indefinitely since the kinetic energy is dissipated, after all.

[d34th4uall]

i don't think zero grav would make any difference. in order to ring, the string must have tension on it. that tension is what makes the string stop it's vibration.one kinetic force working against another.so in theory, a guitar string in a 0 grav vacum would lose its momentum just as fast as if you were in the deepest section of ocean, assuming the guitar wouldn't be crushed under the pressure.ha ha ha. I wonder how hard it would be to play 20000 leagues under the sea?

[UnklMickey]

admin said:

Assuming an environment with no gravity or atmosphere, would a .46 guage string tuned to E ring indefinitely if anchored between tmo points which were incapable of absorbing the kinetic energy of the string? (These points are not a matter of debate, they are both impossible and my plans for the world's best saddle and nut material. ;D)

RH,
if you aren't already enrolled in a Newtonian Physics course, you should be! You have posed an interesting question and your phrasing of it shows an intuitive (or perhaps actual) understanding of the mechanics involved.

i suspect you already know the answer, but are posing this question for the "ponderment" (did i just create a word?) of the other members.

O.K. so here goes:

lets assume that by RING you mean the vibration will continue on the string, because obviously w/o atmosphere and with a "perfect" nut and bridge, there would be no way to transfer this vibration outside the string.

this assumption complete, I am prepared to make the following statement:

the energy in this system is going to be EXACTLY equal to the energy that was put into it MINUS the energy that left the system.

so how would energy leave this system?

1 ---
the nut and bridge are "perfect" only if they are attached to an infinitely rigid and infinitely massive support (body/neck) .

otherwise when the mass of the string moves one way, the body/neck moves in the opposite direction such that the mass*distance of the string = mass*distance of the body/neck.

frictional losses in the supporting structure for the body/neck would turn this motion into heat and gradually remove energy from the system.

2 ---
no gravity?
interestingly, this is for all practical purposes irrelevant!


3 ---
no atmosphere?
no atmosphere is a more important consideration for loss if the system is designed to resonate and transfer sound to the air.

given the "perfect" nut, bridge, body/neck cited in the fist part of (1), the movement of the string in air would create some sound on it's own. hence a small amount energy would be lost in air. without air it looks pretty promising unless we consider . . .

4 ---
other influences.
since we have the system in a non-atmospheric environment, if we want to make use of it's movement by magnetic pickup, the signal generated by the pickup would cause a very small loss on the system and GRADUALLY cause the string to stop vibrating. otherwise the string should vibrate forever...

... but wait !


5 ---
is the string itself perfect?
you specified a .46 ga. string tuned to e.
i assume you mean a wound string -- i suspect this might be slightly worse than a plain string.
as the string flexes, heat is being generated. this robs energy from the system. the amount of energy lost this way is minuscule compared with the other losses we've covered.

Well! i think that pretty much covers it. did i miss anything?

[RandomHero]

Actually, this thought came to me when I was wondering, "What is the base-line for tone?" Because the only way we seem to have to describe the highly subjective matter of tone (which in my opinion, when broken down into frequency and spectrum analyzation, isn't that subjective at all,) is by comparing the tone of one instrument to the next. What is -the- sound made by a vibrating string without the tonal coloration of the hardware it's attached to, the wood beneath that, the fret material, and whatever else and whatnot? I know there will never be an answer, but it's a curious thought nonetheless

[eljib]

How about no atmosphere combined with a "perfect" piezo bridge? No magnetic pull to rob energy, right?

[Trey]

I think RandomHero thinks to much! LOL

[d34th4uall]

i don't think i've ever heard someone complain about how much someone thinks.about how someone thinks, yeah, but not the frequency

[damian]

I wanna play my guitar in space and find out!!!Peace damian

[Trey]

d34th4uall said:

i don't think i've ever heard someone complain about how much someone thinks.about how someone thinks, yeah, but not the frequency

People say that all the time down here, but regardless I was only joking ;D

[Ripper]

My cats breath smells like cat food!

[UnklMickey]

deepblue said:

My cats breath smells like cat food!

HUH? (is that a "Ralph-ism"?)

admin said:

We don't pick up sound waves from outer space. Sound is a waveform disturbance in a molecular substance, that being a very loose definition. You can hear sound through air, water, or anything else made of matter. Space has no matter, therefore there's nothing for the waves of sound to move -through-.

"...in space, no one can hear you scream."

[Mustang]

RandomHero, you do bring up some very good 'mind bubble-gum'. I was beginning to consider what effect the support system would have on the resonant frequency of the vibrating string. But I think that should be primarily a product of the distance between the supports and the tension in the strings which effects the characteristics of how the string 'moves' when acted on by an outside force. I would think that even without pickups to 'pull' on the strings, the vibration would deteriorate with time as the result of the string not being perfectly elastic. It does seem reasonable to think the support system could effect the 'coloration' or harmonic content.