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Post by yakkmeister on Mar 21, 2012 22:50:49 GMT -5
Hello wonderful beings of the internet community kind! I have been planning a tele build for a while and to make this happen I have decided the best cost-to-benefit ratio comes from this kit: www.byoguitar.com/Guitars/BYO-Custom-Shop-Tele__BYO-CS-T-KIT.aspxI intend to upgrade tuners to locking type, the nut to white tusque, the pickups to Tonerider Hot Classic and add the bigsby trem. Since I have a father who is an amazing artist in the Australian Aboriginal style, I have asked him to do (yet another) unique work of art on this build. That is important since the art will be done with a technique called pyrography. From Wiki: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PyrographyMy question is two-fold ... Can I french-polish over pyrography? If I use a dye to increase contrast of the grain, will this effect the shellac or solvent? Would I need a specific type of dye?
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Post by cynical1 on Mar 22, 2012 12:13:37 GMT -5
That is important since the art will be done with a technique called pyrography. Interesting. Never seen a guitar tricked out that way, so make sure and post some pictures once the artwork is completed. One question. Why would you want to use French polishing? OK, some purists out there claim the "tone" achieved by using French polishing is superior to any other finish. On an acoustic guitar they may have some credibility...initially. But as the finish degrades and the wood absorbs dirts, contaminents and moisture, said arguement is flawed. Long and short of it, French polishing, like oiling wood, is a short term solution to your finishing requirements. [gospel] All wood finishes are used to protect the wood from dirt, contaminants and moisture. The longer they do this the better for your wood. [/gospel] If you go with French polishing, which is just shellac and alcohol rubbed incessantly until the shellac levels out, you will find that sweat and oils from you will degrade this finish much faster than modern finishes. If you're game to constantly repair and reapply the finish then have at it. Otherwise, French polishing may not be what you're after. One thing that concerns me about using French polishing over pyrography is what the alcohol will do to the burnt wood, and how all the rubbing critical to the French polishing technique will effect the artwork. As far as the dye goes, are you spraying or rubbing the wood dye? Rubbing the wood dye, unless it's done prior to the wood burning, may introduce the same issues as the French polishing. As to which wood dyes to use, I would suggest two. TransTint Mixol Both work fine with water or denatured alcohol. The water is easier to use, as it doesn't evaporate as quickly, but it will raise the grain...probably not something you want with the pyrography. If it were me, I'd apply the dye prior to the artwork. You generally want to mix the dye light and apply several coats to reach your final color. Rubbing on the finished artwork just strikes me as a bad idea. And if you're damned and determined to use French polishing, then let us know how it went. For me, I'd go with a modern finish. It will be harder and protect the artwork for a much longer time. As far as losing tone based on your finish...well, that's a discussion for another thread...don't get me started... Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by yakkmeister on Mar 22, 2012 23:53:20 GMT -5
Hey Cynical1, Yeah, tone's not a issue. I'm not a fan of the whole 'this finish equals better tone' set, lol. I decided I would like to try french polishing for 3 reasons: 1: to give it a go 2: I love the deep lustre 3: it's easy to repair Caveats: I'm not likely to try and repair it ( lol ) and I really don't care if I use that or something else for the shiny In terms of rubbing on the artwork - that's exactly why I asked the question. I have 2 guitars that Dad has painted for me - one is in the gallery section (called epicifica) and the other is the Dano that I have been having incredible frustrations with rewiring Pics when she's all finished I chose my Dad's art because I have never seen a guitar painted in that style before and it is incredibly beautiful when done right. Also, there are a few guitars with pyrography but none in the Australian Aboriginal style (that I have found) My Dad takes incredible pride in his art (he totally sells himself short too) and I want to showcase his work in the best possible light. To this end I want the best finish to protect the art and make it really stand out. I am spending extra cash on getting a 1-piece swamp-ash body (I really like that grain) and I am actually pushing him out of his comfort-zone with this project. I know he'll make a fantastic job of it and the last thing I want to do is make him feel bad about his work by stuffing it up ... ! I think I probably don't want to risk the raised grain issue ... Do you have any tips for working with dye? I get the use it light and build up (easier to add more dye than take it off if you put too much on ) but are there other things I should be aware of? Is there a minimum/recommended level of equipment I need to make this work? What finish would you apply to it? I am not great with spray painting, but I am passable. My dad used to be a panel-beater and he's pretty fantastic at it... so there are skills available there... [edit] Sorry! Forgot the question about die application! I had intended to rub it - and yeah, I expect I should want to do it before the pyrography ... What I want to do is increase the contrast of the grain to get that holographic effect, sort of ... I just don't want it to look like a flat hunk of wood, I wanted some depth to it. [/edit]
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Post by cynical1 on Mar 23, 2012 0:32:11 GMT -5
As far as emulating the French polish look, there are many modern finishes that can do that. The easy way is to take a semi-gloss poly, sand it out with wet or dry down to 1500-2000 grit and polish it like lacquer. I do all my necks this way and you get a subtle luster along with a smooth slick surface. Standard varnish does the same thing, but poly tends to buff out better. As far as the dye goes...there are several ways to do it, and personal preference tends to dictate the preferred method. You can spray it or wipe it on. With alcohol you'll need to work fast as the denatured alcohol evaporates quickly. Different woods take the dye better then others. Spraying dye has a learning curve, just as wiping it does. The most important thing is not to saturate the wood and cause uneven sections. I prefer wiping it as I feel you have more control over the application and coverage. Those who favor spraying will tell you I'm full of it. The way I do it is to mix a set volume of alcohol with an exact number of drops. This way I can keep the applications even. I go deliberately light and wring most of the dye out of the rag. Long quick strokes work best for me, but I've had a little practice at this. I would suggest finding a scrap piece of ash to practice on. If you do shank it you can always lightly sand down the body with some 360 grit sandpaper and reapply as needed. You won't get all the dye out, but you'll only leave it in the "low" spots, or the portions of the grain that absorbs the dye best. A trick on quilted maple is to hit the top with a black dye, sand it, then apply your color. You get this effect: As far as what to finish the guitar with...man, there's a can of worms... Industry standard for Leo was lacquer. Automotive lacquer. It is cheap, easy to apply, polishes up great and is very easy to repair as each additional coat will melt into the previous ones. I would suggest a catalyst lacquer if you can find it down there. As long as we're talking automotive finishes, every modern metallic auto finish requires a clearcoat. These are tough, durable finishes that also polish up quite nicely. Most of the ones you'll find in auto paint stores do not require baking to cure. They also have a quick recoat time making your finishing time much quicker then polyurethanes. They're not cheap, they require a compressor and a spray gun, but the results are worth it. This is going to be a special instrument. Go cheap and you'll regret it down the road. If I missed anything feel free to ask. Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by yakkmeister on Mar 23, 2012 1:46:16 GMT -5
I have a preference to applying the dye by hand ... I have spray-painted before and I feel I would not have the control I think I would want. I like the idea of the clearcoats you mentioned - and yes, she'll be a special guitar so I want this to look absolutely amazing. I have access to automotive spray painting gear, so that should be groovy After reading your last post, I feel it could be beneficial to do an initial dye with a dark brown and then sand before a final application of a lighter brown. I would like to keep the light portions of the wood to remain light, so I expect that I would need to go over again with a cloth having just solvent on to lift the dye from the light portions? It's pretty important to keep the contrast between the wood and the burned parts, I'd hate to dye it too dark and lose the artwork! [edit] Looks like I can get the dye from StewMac - word is the dye they sell is the same stuff as the TransTint gear relabled. I'll wait for your advice before ordering dyes - I just dropped most of my paycheck on the guitar and some much better quality parts than the kit has [/edit]
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Post by yakkmeister on Mar 23, 2012 4:37:00 GMT -5
I was looking around the internet and found this ... www.ubeaut.com.au/dye.htmlWhat do you think? It's easier for me to get (it's in Oz) and should cost less due to shipping. I would, likely, need to do some tests to mix up a decent colour ...
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Post by cynical1 on Mar 23, 2012 7:45:36 GMT -5
I was looking around the internet and found this ... www.ubeaut.com.au/dye.htmlWhat do you think? It's easier for me to get (it's in Oz) and should cost less due to shipping. I would, likely, need to do some tests to mix up a decent colour ... From what I read this is a water based wood dye. This introduces the grain raising issue I mention previously. Water based dyes have become very popular with all of this "green" marketing feldergarb, but in saving the planet you will be adding additional work to your operation. It'll also add a bit of complication if you're going for a certain color, as every time you sand the raised grain you will be removing some of the dye. Ash is a uniquely grained wood that will absorb the dye deeper in the grain pattern. Using a darker and lighter dye can make for an interesting finish. I would wonder if this is what you're looking for, as the pyrography will darken the wood, and the darker accentuated grain pattern may take away from the artwork. I don't know the nature or design of said artwork, so I may be way off on this. And I don't know what the stock is like down there, but Mixol appears to be available here: The Goldleaf Factory Weyermann Nominees P/L. P.O.Box 912 Frankston Vic. 3199 AUSTRALIA Phone: Fax: +61 3 978 62247 +61 3 978 51145 info@goldleaf.com.auwww.goldleaf.com.auMixol doesn't make an Amber dye, but red or brown and yellow can get you there with a little practice. Remember to document your amounts to keep it consistent. Stew Mac is your best bet for the Transtint dye, but I'm guessing the shipping is insane. Behlen makes penetrating dyes, but I don't think you can get them down there without bumping against the shipping gouge. And I agree, do your dye first, then pyrography. And the automotive finishes are the way to go if you have access to the equipment. The only uncertainty I have on this is how deep the wood is burned, and how smooth a finish you're after. There are way to level the finish, but without seeing the finished artwork it's just a guess on the best way to do it. Interesting project. Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by lpf3 on Mar 23, 2012 8:39:47 GMT -5
From what I read this is a water based wood dye. This introduces the grain raising issue I mention previously. Water based dyes have become very popular with all of this "green" marketing feldergarb, but in saving the planet you will be adding additional work to your operation. It'll also add a bit of complication if you're going for a certain color, as every time you sand the raised grain you will be removing some of the dye. Happy Trails Cynical One There's a couple of things you can do to combat the grain raising properties of water. One, use alcohol based dye if you can get it without crazy shipping costs. Alcohol won't raise the grain but it dries very fast and applying it by hand takes some practice. Two, you can "whisker" the wood first. That is, wet the wood with clean water and sand back the raised grain. Do this a couple of times- and when you finally apply the water based dye, the grain will already have raised as much as it's going to. You'll have a lot less sanding to do on the dyed surface. BTW- that guitar is stunning. You'd think that they would have matched the grain better on the seam. Just sayin' -lpf3
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Post by yakkmeister on Mar 23, 2012 21:36:51 GMT -5
Cynical1: Yes that's pretty much what I am after, though without the subtle bust and, yes, a little lighter all over. That gold-leaf place has great prices on the Mixol stuff! I can safely say that I can take that option without much drama. Thanks for the find! So what colours would I need? I suspect a black and brown aught to do it? [edit] Buffing compounds ... www.ubeaut.com.au/eee.htmThis sounds pretty impressive ... Worth it? [/edit]
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Post by cynical1 on Mar 23, 2012 23:29:06 GMT -5
You're entirely welcome on the link...but it's all Google... Depends on what you're after. If you're just looking to accentuate the grain and add a little color then you probably don't want the black. Swamp ash has some dramatic grain contrasts already. It won't take much to bring that out. I'd say go with the Mixol Brown (# 3), Mixol Oxide Yellow (# 5) and maybe the Mixol Oxide Red (# 4). It's probably going to be a life time supply for you no matter what colors you go with, but this will give you some flexibility on nailing the shade you're after. Just remember to mix everything light and practice on some scrap first. The dyes will look different once they've dried. You can take some mineral spirits and do a quick wipe to get an idea of what the dye will look like under a finish. Sorry, son, but you ain't gettin' off that easy. Depending on the type of finish used you're going to need to let it "gas off". What this means is that all of the solvents will need to dissipate before you can start wet sanding and polishing. Rule of thumb is if you can stick your nose on top of it and not smell the solvent then you're good to go. Lacquer is normally 30 days. Poly is about 2-3 weeks. True auto finishes will depend on the type. Check the instructions that come with the paint\clearcoat for details. The polishing part is the most tedious part of the process. Here's how I do it. 1.) Allow finish to gas off. 2.) Start with 400 grit wet or dry. Sand off all gloss and make sure you can't see any sanding marks. Repeat with 800 grit, 1500 grit and up to 2000 grit if you feel froggy. 2.) Next use a micro abrasive pad and rubbing compound. If you have a powered buffer this can reduce your time, but if you're not careful you can burn the finish. I make two passes with the rubbing compound. 3.) After the rubbing compound repeat the same process again with polishing compound. Again, two passes. 4.) After that it's time for the swirl remover. Same process. I will make two to three passes with the swirl remover. 5.) On lacquer and auto finishes I also make a pass with some standard car wax. It adds a little more protection and really mirrors it out...makes the finish shine. This is how it comes out with lacquer: The next question you're probably going to ask is what type of compounds and polishes to use. Having used most of them over 30 years, the only one I use anymore is Meguiars. It isn't the cheapest, but it works. And works damn good. It's the fastest and cleanest one out there. Any good auto parts store should carry it. Aren't you sorry you asked? Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by yakkmeister on Mar 24, 2012 4:11:20 GMT -5
lol - not at all! I wanted to know how to do it properly, afterall Thanks! Oh! I totally forgot to ask! The burned bits will be depressions in the wood ... how would you suggest I fill them so the finish will be smooth?
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