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Post by zedsnotdead on Jun 28, 2012 21:47:11 GMT -5
Hi guys!! well, here's the story. A friend of mine doesn't feel very comfortable using the 5way switch leveler, so he is trying to use only 3PDT switchs, three of them for each pickup. This pickups are dual-blade humbucking pickups. What we are trying to accomplish is to use each switch for series - OFF - parallel using this diagram for reference:  (one thing I noticed... isn't that north finish/start displaced???) Well we are trying to design it, and here is what we have made so far:  So as you can see, we are "shunting" the outputs, before connecting to volume lug. But I expect this to be more complicated, because we this wiring, the tone controls will affect all the combinations, even if we ONLY have the bridge pickup ON, the 2 tone controls (for middle and neck) will affect the output, will they not? Can you help me with this? Do you have any other diagram or solution to accomplish this kind of pickup selection using switches? Thank you very much for your time. |
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Post by newey on Jun 28, 2012 23:02:17 GMT -5
No, the convention is to designate the "series link" between the coils as being both "finishes" together:  But you're better off to focus on the wire colors, and on correctly correlating the colors from your particular pickups to the diagram you use. Then you don't need to worry about all that "start-finish" stuff. As far as your diagram goes, I'm not sure about the tone pots affecting the "bridge only" setting, I'll await a second opinion on that. I did note that the two tone controls aren't wired the same way. One has the "forwards" wiring and the other doesn't. Not sure why you did that. Also, when switched "off" in the center position, the top coil of each pickup is "hanging from hot". This won't affect the operation of the switching but may (and I emphasize "may") be a source of noise. But, again, let's let others weigh in, there may indeed be a better way. |
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Post by reTrEaD on Jun 28, 2012 23:55:31 GMT -5
The North coil has to "hang from hot" when the pickup is switched off. The only way around that would be to use 3PDT or 4PDT switches. With a DPDT you won't have enough poles to disconnect it.
Same with the tone controls. They will always be connected to hot. Both of them. So they aren't "Neck" and "Middle" tone controls. They are just two knobs that both control the tone, regardless of which pickup(s) is(are) being selected.
Minor improvement: Just use one tone control and consider it a "master".
Major improvement: Use 3PDT or better for the switches and disconnect the unused north coils and tone controls when the pickups are switched off.
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Post by zedsnotdead on Jun 29, 2012 4:32:51 GMT -5
Thank you all for helping me. Im a bit confused... First: I thought the south finish and north start were connected together... it really is most logical to me... but then again, it's a convention right? Second: I think I was using a 3PDT... but it's a dpdt on-off-on allright. My bad sorry. So I understand there is no way I can accomplish this with 3xdpdt's only then? Can you suggest a different wiring for those dpdt?Well, I did thought that this tone controls were redundant given this connection diagram... I think you are right. Now, thinking about something a little different like a master bass and master treble (like those PTB wiring from G&L guitars), what about that? Can I do this with 500K pots? I am only asking 'cause I am looking at the G&L diagram and there is a 1M pot for bass cut (and I wonder why also)... here it is :  What do you think? |
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Post by newey on Jun 29, 2012 6:11:10 GMT -5
Yes, in the sense that either end of the windings of a coil could be called "start", and the opposite end then becomes the finish. But it is important to maintain the convention, otherwise the two coils of the HBs will be wired out-of-phase with each other.
It would appear that your diagram is using DiMarzio colors, if I assume that you have just mislabeled "start" and "finish". Correct? If so, as I said, just worry about the wire colors and all will be fine.
Our member ozboomer has built a guitar with a modified G&L tone circuit, and has experimented with cap values and so forth. I don't know that he ever tried it with different pot value, though. His schematic for his modified design is listed in a long post titled "ozboomer's module library" which is in the "Design Modules" sub-board listed directly above this board.
The reason for the 1M pot (my guess, anyway) is that, in this design, all pots are in circuit at all times, unlike a regular Strat where all three are only in circuit when in position 4 on the 5-way switch. By using a 1M bass pot, some brightness is retained in the circuit, as compared to if both pots were 500K.
Certainly, the scheme can be built with all 500K pots. It will sound a bit darker with 500K, however. Two 500K pots in parallel give an overall resistance of 250K, while one 1M in parallel with one 500K is 333K.
It's one of those questions of personal preference, and also depends on the pickups one uses. You may like it a bit darker.
The above discussion is what happens with both knobs set to "10"; the 1M pot will also make a difference as you turn that pot down, in conjunction with the capacitor value chosen. G&L may well have found that 1M is the best compromise on the value for that control, but recognize that all these decisions are compromises, since pots are only available in certain values.
And yes, your pots are DPDT On-On-On. These are often referred to as DP3T, which is technically a misnomer because the center position is not a separate "throw". But there are only 2 poles. This may be however the source of the confusion with a 3PDT switch.
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Post by zedsnotdead on Jun 29, 2012 9:46:16 GMT -5
It would appear that your diagram is using DiMarzio colors, if I assume that you have just mislabeled "start" and "finish". Correct? If so, as I said, just worry about the wire colors and all will be fine. No, when I was drwing this diagram I wasn't thinking of any brand specific color. Coincidence maybe, I guess... Our member ozboomer has built a guitar with a modified G&L tone circuit, and has experimented with cap values and so forth. I don't know that he ever tried it with different pot value, though. His schematic for his modified design is listed in a long post titled "ozboomer's module library" which is in the "Design Modules" sub-board listed directly above this board. The reason for the 1M pot (my guess, anyway) is that, in this design, all pots are in circuit at all times, unlike a regular Strat where all three are only in circuit when in position 4 on the 5-way switch. By using a 1M bass pot, some brightness is retained in the circuit, as compared to if both pots were 500K. Certainly, the scheme can be built with all 500K pots. It will sound a bit darker with 500K, however. Two 500K pots in parallel give an overall resistance of 250K, while one 1M in parallel with one 500K is 333K. It's one of those questions of personal preference, and also depends on the pickups one uses. You may like it a bit darker. The above discussion is what happens with both knobs set to "10"; the 1M pot will also make a difference as you turn that pot down, in conjunction with the capacitor value chosen. G&L may well have found that 1M is the best compromise on the value for that control, but recognize that all these decisions are compromises, since pots are only available in certain values. Makes total sense to me. I will search for his thread. Thank you. And yes, your pots are DPDT On-On-On. These are often referred to as DP 3T, which is technically a misnomer because the center position is not a separate "throw". But there are only 2 poles. This may be however the source of the confusion with a 3PDT switch. The switches work like the ones on the second column (that's why I called them ON-OFF-ON):  So, what can I do with these switches, apart of turning on/off the pickups? I mean could I at least use them to do some coil-spliting/series? I mean what would you suggest to do with them? Thank you so much!! |
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Post by reTrEaD on Jun 29, 2012 11:04:34 GMT -5
Hey Newey, better have another cup of coffee. Some of what you posted is a bit off. And yes, your pots are DPDT On-On-On. These are often referred to as DP3T, which is technically a misnomer because the center position is not a separate "throw". But there are only 2 poles. This may be however the source of the confusion with a 3PDT switch. Going by the text from zed, these are minitoggles. Apparently on-OFF-on. To upgrade, he could replace these with 3PDT on-off-on (or because they are more common 4PDT on-off-on) Yes, in the sense that either end of the windings of a coil could be called "start", and the opposite end then becomes the finish. But it is important to maintain the convention, otherwise the two coils of the HBs will be wired out-of-phase with each other.
It would appear that your diagram is using DiMarzio colors, if I assume that you have just mislabeled "start" and "finish". The labeling of start and finish in his diagram is correct. I feel very uncomfortable with the statement "either end of the winding could be called the start". It's misleading. While it is true that "start" doesn't dictate which end it hot or ground, "start" has a specific meaning. The beginning of the winding. The part that's buried under the outer windings, which are closest to the "finish". In a normal humbucker, both coils are wound in the same direction - clockwise. So to achieve hum-canceling, the start of one coil is "ground" and the start of the other coil is "hot". As far as the hum is concerned, the coils are out of phase with each other. The signal generated by the string would also be out of phase between the two coils, BUT we have one of the magnets flipped. Think of the reverse connected coil with the flipped magnet, as having an engine that runs backward, coupled to a transmission in reverse. It still drives the car forward. I think reading the "How to explain hum-canceling" thread might clear things up for zed. It's still a work in progress, but there's good info present. So I understand there is no way I can accomplish this with 3xdpdt's only then? Can you suggest a different wiring for those dpdt? No way to improve on what you have with the wiring of the DPDTs. You did the best that was possible, given the limitations of the switches. Now, thinking about something a little different like a master bass and master treble (like those PTB wiring from G&L guitars), what about that? Can I do this with 500K pots? I am only asking 'cause I am looking at the G&L diagram and there is a 1M pot for bass cut (and I wonder why also)... here it is :
[image]
What do you think? Bass cut would be an okay option, but I don't think the G&L circuit is all that effective with a 1Meg pot. Even less so with a 500k. I prefer the configuration of the bass-cut in this mess:  It's basically a treble-bleed circuit on steroids. Might need some tweaking of component values, but it should be more effective. |
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Post by newey on Jun 29, 2012 13:16:35 GMT -5
Yeah, my bad on the typos, I meant "switches" and "On-Off-On". I even noted the typos at the time, meant to correct both of them, and then hit "post" forgetting to do so . . .  As far as the "start-finish" business, I think we're both saying the same thing- it does matter that the convention be followed if the two coils are to be in phase. A more detailed description on my part would probably have been clearer, however. As RT said, the two "finishes" get wired together because both coils are wound the same (cheaper that way for the manufacturer, as both coils can come off the same machine); rather than an actual reverse winding, the connections are simply reversed. So, that's the reason zed's intuition was off- if it wasn't finish-to-finish, they'd be out-of-phase (since the magnets are reversed AND the wiring is opposite, so as to make the two coils hum-cancel.) |
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Post by zedsnotdead on Jun 29, 2012 13:58:34 GMT -5
Thank you all!
Regarding the treble-bleed "on steroids" ;D, well for what I see I would need 4 potenciometers (VR1 to VR4) but I only have 3 potenciometers... I was more into trying the G&L circuit first and check the result...
Ok, so with those 3 dpdt on-off-on switches I can't do better for a series-off-paralell. So what are these worth for? Can I use them for other pickup selection and/or configuration of coils? I mean i was expecting something more usefull for a on-off-on swtch besides just turning each pickup on and off....
What options or possibilities would you suggest? (if there is any...)
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Post by newey on Jun 29, 2012 15:15:21 GMT -5
zed- Don't misunderstand, you can use those switches. The "hanging from hot" issue may cause some noise, it may not. Or, it may increase the noise level but not appreciably. As a matter of good wiring practices, we try to avoid having hanging coils when it is possible- but sometimes it can't be avoided. This is one of those times. RT's suggestion to rejigger the tone controls (or try something else, like the G & L) is, as he said, "good". "Better" would be new switches, but if you already have these, you can certainly use them. If you try this, and the noise level is unacceptable, then Plan B (new switches) might be necessary. But in the meantime, if this is the scheme you know you want, I'd say go for it. And, please, if you do so, report back your results. We can theorize all we want on the "hanging from hot" issue, but some empirical results would help move the debate as well.  |
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Post by zedsnotdead on Jun 29, 2012 16:54:45 GMT -5
Thank you!!
Now... do you think I should use a different capacitor value for the bass-cut, instead of 0.0022uF? Should I try other values?
I am asking because of the 500K pot I will try (vs. 1M used in G&L schematic) before going to store and buy a 1M...
Any thoughts?
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Post by reTrEaD on Jun 29, 2012 17:09:42 GMT -5
Thank you!! Now... do you think I should use a different capacitor value for the bass-cut, instead of 0.0022uF? Should I try other values? I am asking because of the 500K pot I will try (vs. 1M used in G&L schematic) before going to store and buy a 1M... Any thoughts? The 2.2nF value on the G&L print would be a reasonable starting point. But I think you should try different values. Probably larger. "Season to taste." Regarding the treble-bleed "on steroids" ;D, well for what I see I would need 4 potenciometers (VR1 to VR4) but I only have 3 potenciometers... I was more into trying the G&L circuit first and check the result... If you want to use the G&L circuit, that's fine. But you don't need 4 pots to use the bass cut in the circuit I posted. Just delete everything associated with VR3, the mid-cut section. |
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Post by zedsnotdead on Jun 29, 2012 21:25:16 GMT -5
If you want to use the G&L circuit, that's fine. But you don't need 4 pots to use the bass cut in the circuit I posted. Just delete everything associated with VR3, the mid-cut section. Of course... I didn't noticed the mid-cut section on that circuit. My bad.  Thank you!!! Could you explain me why is there a R=100K after VR2? Well, I will post back the results of this as soon as I get it done, next week I hope. Still trying to figure out any other way to mess with those dpdt's... I know, I'm just stubborn enough to insist ;D PS: I have some doubts about cut-off frequencies, how does it all work. I think I will post my doubts in another topic... |
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Post by reTrEaD on Jun 29, 2012 22:45:42 GMT -5
The 100k limits the amount of cut and also keeps the bass-cut control from killing all volume when the pot is at full counter-clockwise. Without it, the CCW end of the pot would be at ground.
Best of luck with the DPDTs. Maybe someone else here has a clever idea, but I surely don't.
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Post by ashcatlt on Jun 30, 2012 11:50:50 GMT -5
I don't think the bass cut pot causes treble loss in the G&L scheme. This is in series to the output jack, and has a cap across it meant specifically to let the high freqs get around as easily as possible. A smaller pot here just means you won't get as deep a bass cut.
RT's thing does add some loading because it completes the circuit. From what I've read and seen and figured this way gives a more satisfying bass-cut action, though.
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Post by zedsnotdead on Jun 30, 2012 16:39:18 GMT -5
I don't think the bass cut pot causes treble loss in the G&L scheme. This is in series to the output jack, and has a cap across it meant specifically to let the high freqs get around as easily as possible. A smaller pot here just means you won't get as deep a bass cut. RT's thing does add some loading because it completes the circuit. From what I've read and seen and figured this way gives a more satisfying bass-cut action, though. Thank you! I'll try the G&L first and then if it doesn't work the way I expect, I will go for Retread diagram. I will just try G&L because I own a S-500 myself and I am more confortable messing with this diagram (although this wiring is for a friend of mine and his new strat). Well I just figured that since he is also shielding the guitar, that he might need some protection capacitor in ground circuit (to avoid electric shock), like the one on "quieting the beast" tuturial. Do you think a 22pF/3000V will do? Again thank you all so much! i will post results! |
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Post by JohnH on Jun 30, 2012 22:52:30 GMT -5
Going back to your switches, and desire to use three Dpdt on-off-on's:
As alluded to above, the issues with making them do series,off,parallel is that there are not enough poles to avoid hanging from hot. Also, it is not feasible to disconnect the tone controls properly (or maybe not at all), resulting in extra master tone controls rather than pickup specific. The switches need another pole each.
But if, instead of series,off,parallel, you could have a set up where each switch is series,off,single-coil, then it can all work out nicely with Your two pole switches. One pole connects the pickup hot in up or down positions (but not centre), the other does single coil tap in say down only. If you want tone controls assigned to particular pups, just hard wire them to the pickups before the switching, and they will get cut out fully when the pickup is off.
That's what I would do in your place, though I find generally that 3 position toggles are a bit too fiddly for me.
Cheers
John
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Post by zedsnotdead on Jul 3, 2012 14:09:34 GMT -5
Going back to your switches, and desire to use three Dpdt on-off-on's: As alluded to above, the issues with making them do series,off,parallel is that there are not enough poles to avoid hanging from hot. Also, it is not feasible to disconnect the tone controls properly (or maybe not at all), resulting in extra master tone controls rather than pickup specific. The switches need another pole each. But if, instead of series,off,parallel, you could have a set up where each switch is series,off,single-coil, then it can all work out nicely with Your two pole switches. One pole connects the pickup hot in up or down positions (but not centre), the other does single coil tap in say down only. If you want tone controls assigned to particular pups, just hard wire them to the pickups before the switching, and they will get cut out fully when the pickup is off. That's what I would do in your place, though I find generally that 3 position toggles are a bit too fiddly for me. Cheers John I see John, you are right. I am also fiddling with these switches and it does work for series-off-coiltap, as you said I must wire the tone control to pickup output before sending the signal. Anyway, I just draw a new diagram, using simple series-off-coiltap (instead of parallel, to avoid hanging from hot), using 500K pots, 0,47uF for treble cut and 0,0022uF for bass-cut. I am also adding a blocking capacitor, rated 22pF/3000V. It looks like this:  I also added some connectors to make switching the caps as simple as possible, and also for star grounding the circuit simplier. Do you think this will work? What about the blocking cap, will it work also? Thank you all! |
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Post by JohnH on Jul 3, 2012 15:33:42 GMT -5
Nice diagram - that needs more of a check than I can do this morning.
the blocking cap, if used, is much larger than 22pF. To be honest almost nobody uses them though, but have a look at the original GN site linked at top of page.
With the coil cuts, if you wish, you can choose to make one pickup cut to the other coil instead, so you can have your favorite two combos of two pickups to be hum cancelling
John
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Post by zedsnotdead on Jul 3, 2012 15:44:04 GMT -5
Nice diagram - that needs more of a check than I can do this morning. the blocking cap, if used, is much larger than 22pF. To be honest almost nobody uses them though, but have a look at the original GN site linked at top of page. With the coil cuts, if you wish, you can choose to make one pickup cut to the other coil instead, so you can have your favorite two combos of two pickups to be hum cancelling John Thanks John! About the blocking capacitor, I thought that it should the less capacitance possible to not influence the tone, and rated above 400V at least... thus 22pF 3000V. According to calculations that should be 120.6 MOhm @ 60Hz... edit: thinking about it, that really should also block the noise stopping it going for ground... and that's all the point of shielding. Hmmmm  |
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Post by reTrEaD on Jul 3, 2012 18:24:18 GMT -5
edit: thinking about it, that really should also block the noise stopping it going for ground... and that's all the point of shielding. Hmmmm Bingo! Zed you just earned this week's eureka award, for finding your way to the heart of the matter. A large "safety" capacitor won't protect you from an AC shock. A small one won't allow the shielding to work properly. And there is no "sweet spot" where all is well. Yes, a cap will protect you from DC. But it would take an extremely rare set of circumstances for you be exposed to DC at dangerous levels because of a failure in your amp. If you're concerned about AC shocks (as you should be), the best protection is to use properly wired outlets and a GFCI. If your amp, PA, etc doesn't have a GFCI built in, you can buy a power strip that has one. They are reasonably priced. John Atchley has some pretty good ideas on his GuitarNuts site. But I think the "safety cap" idea is not so good. |
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Post by zedsnotdead on Jul 3, 2012 18:30:18 GMT -5
Bingo! Zed you just earned this week's eureka award, for finding your way to the heart of the matter.  going-to-ditch-the-cap..... What about the diagram, will it work?? Is it ok? Seriously guys, I think I am a little paranoid with all this... |
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Post by reTrEaD on Jul 3, 2012 20:51:42 GMT -5
I think you're missing a wire from where all three switches connect together, to the CW terminal of the volume control?
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Post by zedsnotdead on Jul 3, 2012 21:31:13 GMT -5
They connect in series with the master bass-cut pot, and from there to the volume knob... I think it's ok, but then again I might be wrong.
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Post by ashcatlt on Jul 3, 2012 22:43:47 GMT -5
Wow, that was a trip! "Those aren't switches!" . I don't generally do wiring diagrams, and especially not on my medication, but I wanted to help. It looks to me like the bass cut is not wired like either of the schemes above it. That's not to say it might not do something. Heck, you might have found a better way to do it! But it ain't like the others. |
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Post by zedsnotdead on Jul 3, 2012 23:20:48 GMT -5
Wow, that was a trip! "Those aren't switches!" . I don't generally do wiring diagrams, and especially not on my medication, but I wanted to help. It looks to me like the bass cut is not wired like either of the schemes above it. That's not to say it might not do something. Heck, you might have found a better way to do it! But it ain't like the others. Well, i tried to do this: - bass-cut pot turned full counter-clockwise = shorting the output (right lug) to middle lug towards the volume knob - bass-cut pot turned full clockwise = forces the output go through the 0,0022uF cap (because of the added resistance 500K of the pot), and back to middle lug which connects to volume pot. Am I thinking wrong? |
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Post by ashcatlt on Jul 4, 2012 0:04:51 GMT -5
Well, i tried to do this: - bass-cut pot turned full counter-clockwise = shorting the output (right lug) to middle lug towards the volume knob - bass-cut pot turned full clockwise = forces the output go through the 0,0022uF cap (because of the added resistance 500K of the pot), and back to middle lug which connects to volume pot. Am I thinking wrong? Makes sense to me. Like I said, it just might work. I've never seen it done before, and I don't really feel like firing up 5spice right now. It's a free download, though, and we really need to have a sticky with like a tutorial on how to set it up for modeling guitar circuits and maybe a downloadable "generic passive guitar" scheme... Or you could try it. Either way, let us know if it turns out to be the awesomest bass cut control ever. |
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Post by zedsnotdead on Jul 4, 2012 0:16:35 GMT -5
Well, I just added those 3 square connectors to the G&L diagram and tried to made sure they are connecting the right pieces together.... nothing awesome about it... yeah, that 5spice tutorial would be awesome! not this, this is just me fiddling around something already done by G&L |
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Post by ashcatlt on Jul 4, 2012 0:42:06 GMT -5
If you want it to work like the G&L thing, you'll need to connect the wiper to one of the outside lugs. I always get confused which is which.
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Post by zedsnotdead on Jul 4, 2012 10:20:12 GMT -5
I just re-did the diagram. Shunted the outside right lug to the wiper in the bass-cut pot, and also different lug connection on treble-cut pot. Looks like this now:  So it looks something like this: Think I am missing a treble-bleed on the volume pot....  |
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