MBB Clone

[1150lefty]

Just got my Marshall Blues Breaker replica kit in the mail today. I thought that I would actually learn circuits and values, and try to remember formulas to try to keep my brain above water while attempting some electronics engineering courses online. It will probably change with my tinkering, but this is going to be the schematic I'll follow:

www.generalguitargadgets.com/diagrams/bluesbreaker_sc2.gif?phpMyAdmin=78482479fd7e7fc3768044a841b3e85a

Now, the hard part will be choosing whether or not to paint the box, and what color(s). Might lose sleep over this...

[1150lefty]

9 joints left and I'm pooped. Took me the longest time to get the values of the resistors and capacitors figured out, and then I found the bill of materials and all the color codes were there. So, I wasted a couple of hours. I also had interruptions and got hungry. ;D







I think I'll end up replacing the red LED with a blue one.

More tomorrow. Hopefully I'll be able to test it out. Can't wait!

[newey]

Nice build! +1!

How was your experience with the General Guitar Gadgets kit? I've built one of theirs and thought it was a good kit for the money.

[ashcatlt]

Seven joints left?!?! Crap on a crutch man, how many did you start with? A little bit to steady the hand, maybe, but...
;D

[1150lefty]

It's well worth the money I think. $60 compared to $200-400? I think I see where they get their prices for pedals these days, but I'd rather DIY than pay the extra money.

I'm still having trouble with my right hand and small parts. My brain condition is much better, but still not 100% and gets bad with fatigue. I'll finish tonight and see if I can play well enough to post a video. Been reading mods that some have done changing resistors/caps and adding JFETs, but I'll grind that axe when I get there.

[1150lefty]

I almost had to go to the hospital because my face melted off! ;D

After a long time cleaning whatever got on the tip causing a non-stick no-tin effect (maybe the solder that came in the kit?), I got everything buttoned up and the joint broke on the LED. Yes, this does affect the sound. Maybe a blue one will sound even better? I figured out that I cannot use my Boss power supply. Will try to dig one out later that I think I have that worked for my DOD, Arion, and Yamaha pedals. A 9v battery with low charge isn't as fun as the one that has almost full charge! P-90's sound like they hurt, and my Fender Strat sounds like it's playing through tubes even on my solid state. I haven't tried HB's or my Fender tube amp yet. It sure seems to me like it has true bypass. It pops when I turn it on and sounds the same as running straight into the amp when switched off.

Now, you guys know I'm not quite satisfied, so first thing will be adding more low frequency, and then maybe a touch more distortion. Haven't decided on paint, probably leave it bare. I have no regrets on this purchase and the learning experience is priceless.

I can barely hold the guitar with my right hand, much less play anything video-worthy. Sorry, you'll have to wait for the video.

[buzzy]

How about NATO green or camo with white army-type stencil writing?

[long813]

A tad late, but ...

Sept 23, 2012 21:40:30 GMT -5 1150lefty said:

After a long time cleaning whatever got on the tip causing a non-stick no-tin effect (maybe the solder that came in the kit?)

Do you clean and tip the tip properly? Many things can go wrong to make the soldering tip 'not work' anymore. It's WRONG for people to suggest sanding the tip to clean off the lay of oxidation. With correct cleaning practices, the tip will last years.

What I've been taught: tin tip, clean, solder, clean component, clean, tin tip, clean.

I got everything buttoned up and the joint broke on the LED. Yes, this does affect the sound. Maybe a blue one will sound even better?

Changing from red to blue LEDs could change the tone due to the difference in voltage drop between them.

Red ~ 2v
Blue ~ 3.7

So, if you just make a direct swap, components after the LED could be 'under-sourced' I don't know what the circuit looks like, but this could be good or bad or neutral. At quick glance altering R18 would be the one to try and make the voltage drop equivalent from Red to Blue.

Any updates on this by the way?

[1150lefty]

Updates?

Yeah - the thing is broken. I don't know what happened, but I'll just have to take it apart and perform the modifications that I should have done to it in the first place. For some reason, it won't output anything but noise when the swith is on. Otherwise, it bypasses flawlessly. I pounded on it a couple times and replaced the battery. It started working, but didn't sound right. Sounded good through my new cabinet, but something's definitely wrong inside that will take time to figure out.

The iron is fine. I think the solder GGG sent was bad or something. I can use the cheap stuff from Home Depot with no problem. The new tip gets hot in less than 2 minutes - I love it!

As for paint, I still haven't decided. I've gone back to my ME-50 and the digital model tones actually sound better. Geez, did I just say that?

One more thing to do when there isn't time...

[long813]

Nov 16, 2012 12:56:12 GMT -5 1150lefty said:

Updates?

Yeah - the thing is broken. I don't know what happened, but I'll just have to take it apart and perform the modifications that I should have done to it in the first place. For some reason, it won't output anything but noise when the swith is on. Otherwise, it bypasses flawlessly. I pounded on it a couple times and replaced the battery. It started working, but didn't sound right. Sounded good through my new cabinet, but something's definitely wrong inside that will take time to figure out.

Time to break out you ciruit analysis skills and trouble shoot!

The iron is fine. I think the solder GGG sent was bad or something. I can use the cheap stuff from Home Depot with no problem. The new tip gets hot in less than 2 minutes - I love it!

What does the label say on both?

It could be that GGG sent you non-lead solder and you have solder with lead in it now. Or, the stuff you bought now is 62/36 - it has a lower melting point. Much better than 60/40 IME.

As for paint, I still haven't decided. I've gone back to my ME-50 and the digital model tones actually sound better. Geez, did I just say that?

One more thing to do when there isn't time...

Nothing wrong with digital IMO, it's the quality of the digital effects that make all the difference. I do know a lot of high end modeling gear is amazing, but some of the cheaper stuff leaves a lot to be desired.

Where did you buy the kit btw? I don't know if it was stated in the thread (or I skipped over it).

[ashcatlt]

Sorry to hear that it has failed. I guess things got a bit hazy there toward the end of thoes 9 joints?

But seriously: What to do when it doesn't work. That site is quite a bit busier than this one, and I am absolutely sure there are people there with experience with this build - probably with this exact kit. Course, there are folks here with enough general knowledge to help given the info requested in that link, too!

[sumgai]

lefty,

Nov 16, 2012 12:56:12 GMT -5 1150lefty said:

..... I've gone back to my ME-50 and the digital model tones actually sound better.

The major problem with blanket statements like this is that they are misleading, to be polite about it.

Digital versus Analog is an ongoing battle between the cognoscenti and the unwashed, the latter of course out-numbering the former by 4 or 5 orders of magnitude. And retail sales drones aren't helping matters any, they either don't know squat, or they don't bother to spend a few moments to impart knowledge to the prospective buyer, thereby giving that person more ammunition to make an informed (and happy) purchase. Sad.

The long and short of it is this: There are two ways to get a signal from Point A to Point B (your guitar to the amp) - either with analog or with digital methods. In point of fact, the digital method isn't really getting your guitar's signal to the amp, it's merely using the signal to control something else. What's that you ask? Why surely you've heard of the.... synthesizer, eh?

That's correct, the tone you hear is not the original thing, it's something else made up entirely out of thin air. Your guitar is needed only to tell the synth what pitch, what volume, any pitch-bend data, and one or two other little items in that vein. So much for digital, let's look at analog.

Analog is just what it implies, a waveform that is essentially identical to that coming from the pickups, and then modified according to some analog control. A pot is a good example here, whether for volume or tone, or for amount of Chorus effect, etc. Contrast this with the stomp switch - is that an analog or a digital device? Answer: it's digital.... there are only two discrete states, on or off, thus it can't be analog, as there's no infinitesimal variability, like there is with a pot. Another example is any kind of overdrive - merely exceed the design specifications, and you've modified the tonality of your analog signal. Taken to an extreme, you get the additional effect of sustain, though it won't be clean in the traditional sense of the word.

So how come we keep hearing that Effect X is digital? Simple. Unless it claims outright to be a synth, then in fact it's merely using digital methods to exert analog control. Meaning, it's like using. a relay, where a low voltage controls a higher (and presumably more dangerous) voltage. Make no mistake, digital-to-analog conversions can be sliced almighty thin, thus imitating any real world ability to find just that exact amount of Chorus, etc.

So what we have is a digital circuit doing something, and then applying those results to the analog signal. Best example is our friend the Chorus pedal. It consists of two or more oscillators (come on, I'm not gonna do all the work here - look it up yerownself), each applying a control voltage to an active filter circuit. When your guitar's analog signal is run through that filter, without the Chorus turned on, it sounds merely like it's one single tone (likable or otherwise). But if you were to manually twist a pot back and forth so as to control the frequency response of that filter, then you'd have a manually operated Chorus pedal, right?

So why not automate that pot's constant change-of-rotation, thus saving our wrist for more important stuff.   That's where the digital oscillator comes in. Turn it on, feed the output to the filter's frequency controller (replace the manual pot), then sit back and enjoy.

Bottom line: we've modified the analog signal, but at its heart, its still our pickup's output signal, in original analog form, only modified to change some frequency characteristics. The fact that we did it with digital controls means that we actually have a hybrid system going, but how many buyers want to hear that crap? As soon as the salesman complicates things with this kind of knowledge, the eyes glaze over, the wallet closes back up, and the no-longer-potential customer bolts for the door.

Moral of the story: the KISS principle applies even here.



But wait, what if I laid out this set of Ginzu knives, now how much would you listen to my drivel?

;D


As it happens, what I've just described is indeed a modeler - it takes your signal, applies filters to change it in some way, then outputs the results. The filters to be applied are almost infinite in variety. Literally, I can make a Strat, any Strat, sound like an old-time jazz box. Or even a fully acoustic guitar, one that doesn't even have any built-in electronics of any sort.

Want a Les Paul with P-90's? (Or three of 'em? Or four? ) No issue, got it right here. Want a Telecaster Thinline (with Fender split Humbuckers)? Got ya covered. A Danelectro just like Link Wray used? Ho hum, you're not testing me very hard here. How about a 12 string Rickenbacker? Oh please, stop with the easy stuff, all right?

But importantly, all of these results are easily obtained with any guitar signal, not just some special kind of Fender-only Strat pup. That's the heart and soul of modeling - apply filters until we get the tone we want. And in many cases (Roland/Boss for sure), we get modeled amplifers too (complete with speaker boxes of all kinds). That crazy variety just went into overdrive!!   How cool is that, eh?

But again, it takes money to make this kind of thing sound more than merely acceptable, but to sound convincingly indistinguishable from the original (whatever's being modeled). Not to mention, it also has to be reliable - gigging musicians don't like fiddling with broken stuff.

HTH






sumgai



BTW, for those who might be wondering.... I can assure that you yes, everything that can be done with digital controls can also be done with analog control systems. However, things like reliability and raw cost have a way of making digital come out the much more desirable path to take. As a simple experiment, try using a simple single transistor to make an oscillator. Easy, you say. Yep.... until you go to repeat the process, time after time, after time.... after time. And while the components may have acted the same on the test bench before leaving the factory, I can guarantee you that heat, age, mere usage, shock, other environmental factors, all of these will combine to make your 'special analog control circuit' worthless to the customer in a heartbeat. The dial markings might be only a little, or way off, who knows. How do you compensate for that with analog stuff? With lots of other components, that's how. I'm sure it's obvious that adding those 'error correcting' parts will add to the cost, so I won't bother to mention that aspect. Not so for digital stuff - all the necessary error correction circuitry is already built-in, and you're pretty much assured that unless the customer starts soaking the effects device in beer every night, it will always be dialed in correctly.

[1150lefty]

Well since you put it that way SG (no, I didn't read all that but feel where you are coming from), I should have said my manhood now resides in purse my wife lost in a closet somewhere. Even us "purists" can be woo'ed by toys. I'm sure the MBB Clone will sound more real once I get things worked out.

[sumgai]

Nov 17, 2012 1:02:32 GMT -5 1150lefty said:

Well since you put it that way SG (no, I didn't read all that but feel where you are coming from), I should have said my manhood now resides in purse my wife lost in a closet somewhere.

Are you perchance channeling Sam Kinison, especially the segment between 0:37 and 3:30?





Sorry if I hit a little too close to the mark.......




sumgai

[1150lefty]

I miss him. RIP Sam.

I did go back and read that in case I missed something. I don't get offended very easily, especially on the internet. No worries. ;D

[buzzy]

Having just sold my ME-50 to get back into stomp boxes I thought I'd better read this thread..

I have to say reading SG's post has really cleared things up for me and now I see why my (mostly basic analogue) FX sound better, albeit after a lot more knob-twiddling to tease out the sound than the ME-50. I usually end up backing things off to improve the sound which says it all really. I think you definitely have more control with stomps and of course you get to pick and choose who's products alter each aspect of your sound instead of having it all done the Boss way, I don't like their fuzz as much as my Fuzz Face clone for example...

Anyway I would try to stick with the stomp boxes and get the BB working or buy an old Boss SD-1 or similar to replace it.

Cheers, Buzz.

[1150lefty]

I originally bought the ME-50 because I was too poor to buy all the stompboxes I thought I needed. Actually, my wife bought it for my birthday. The first one developed a ghost noise and had to exchange it fo a refurb unit. It was a pain to get all my presets back, but I have ONE now and I wrote it down in the manual this time.

Now it seems everybody thinks their pedal is the new sliced cheese and you will pay what they think it's worth to get it. I've even seen used pedals going for over what they used to cost. This is also one of the reasons I got the MBB kit. The ME-50 won't come close to the MBB + Randall amp distortion, but it has all the toys I hardly use and creates long hours of messing around when I should be practicing.

[long813]

Nov 19, 2012 9:54:07 GMT -5 1150lefty said:

Now it seems everybody thinks their pedal is the new sliced cheese and you will pay what they think it's worth to get it. I've even seen used pedals going for over what they used to cost. This is also one of the reasons I got the MBB kit. The ME-50 won't come close to the MBB + Randall amp distortion, but it has all the toys I hardly use and creates long hours of messing around when I should be practicing.

A lot of it is just the magic pixel dust they are selling. Look at the price original Ts-808's TS-9's go for. When you analysis them, All new TS808, -9 -5, -10 are easily modded to be the same. Actually, a TS10 you can probably pick up for 20$ or less used bc people hate them.

[sumgai]

Well, I certainly never entertained the thought of 'offending' anyone, it's probably obvious that I could have, should the necessity arise.... which it hasn't, and probably never will. What I saw was a teaching opportunity, and buzzy confirms that I made the right call, thanks B. ;D

All-in-one units do have two deficiencies - they're 'fixed' in that you are dependent on what they can do, no outside 'help' (from another effects box) within the signal chain, only before or after the all-in-one device. And they're a single point-of-failure - if any part of it goes out to lunch, the whole kit-and-kaboodle is down for the count. It might cost no more to repair it than anything else, but the cost to replace it, for just one failed function, that's galling to say the least.

There is also a shortcoming, the 'twiddling' time to both learn the basics and to search out "That Tone", which may not even be in there in the first place. But for sure, if you don't try to find it, then it won't be there for you at all.

Stomp boxes are cheaper, both to buy and to repair/replace. Hell, some players carry spares, just in case - only anal professionals carry a spare all-in-one unit to a gig..... and usually, only those that have been personally burned by a failure.

Now, I can't let it pass that many modelers can be modded to allow an additional outside effects box to enter the signal chain, somewhere in the middle.... I've done it to my own VG-88. And that comes after the fact that I can re-arrange the order of the various effects in the signal chain at any time, and store that order as part of a User-Preset. (Again, I'm speaking from Roland/Boss experience.)

But my final misgiving with Roland units in particular is that they all slavishly conform to the original intent of a distortion pedal - they imitate an amp/speaker setup that has some kind of tonal "coloration" of its own. Hence, there are no fuzz boxes - you can't go "gimme a TS-808". If you want to sound like a Mesa Tri-Rectifier, then you choose that instead as part of your signal path. If you want to add distortion before that amp, you can do it, but it's labeled as a generic distortion, and at least in Roland's case, it's in polyphony - they call it "Hex Distortion". Make no mistake, that's a much more classy tone, chords ring out as clear as single notes, but you actually have to work to make it sound like your favorite distortion pedal, essentially finding the combination of control settings that sound muddy, just like the original effects box.

But the capability is there - if you can stand the 'single point of failure' possibility, and then the time spent searching for "That Tone", and finally the purchase cost, then there just might be a modeler in your future.

HTH




sumgai

[1150lefty]

I revisited this last night when I was bored and cranky. Seems the pedal doesn't like to work with low battery power (duh!), and there is a bad joint on the board for the ground. While I didn't fix it at that late/early an hour, I got to doing some research and most of my "goodies" links where everybody did my homework for me are not working. Now that I have 6 things going on at once, I'll update as the updates come.

[1150lefty]

I hope 1/4 watt is okay. That's the size that looked right.

R10 470k - more gain

C8 & C9 .022 - more bottom end on the tone control

C10 1uf - less bright (might be better to wire in a switch?)

R1 3M - the switch pops horribly with 1M, and I thought this might quiet it down when OD is switched on.

Most of the mods I found before were for the original Bluesbreaker, and also for getting tones closer to the Guv'nor pedal. None were for the true bypass. New research has produced these results; some with squealing issues. I will use the R10 (330K for a little more gain) and C8/C9 (true bypass wiring) mods suggested by GGG first and go from there. I want more gain and better tone control. It seems that with more gain comes more of the over-pronounced treble, so the "less bright" value might come into play.

[1150lefty]

All I ended up changing was R10 for more gain. It can get a little dirty now! It was the only real "kick" that it needed. If anyone can tell me if there is a need to mess with the tone caps, send me a good audio quality video or clip.

As for the switch pop, it went away on its own (scratching head). Maybe the switch needed to be broken-in? The ground (common -) wire wasn't the culprit, as were not many of the joints I suspected. The wire for the volume broke loose while I was soldering and made for a bit of a change in tone and attack, maybe a little off the gain too. I found another wire that came loose from somewhere, but the GGG site is closed today so I am using that as my excuse to slack-off and do some housework. That short went away for now, but will probably take rebuilding from scratch to find it.

Now, I will have to work on a new callous for my middle finger - wore the other off testing this pedal! ;D