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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2012 8:20:03 GMT -5
Hello, is there any way, according to your experiences, that adding neck relief *does not* impact string action at the higher frets?
I mean, is there such a neck bow profile that would make the above happen?
If yes, is such a profile considered "common"?
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Post by long813 on Oct 15, 2012 8:56:27 GMT -5
Hmm. Where to begin.
I'll start with explaining how to check the neck relief and then we'll see where that gets us.
When you check the neck relief, you press the first and last (some say 14/17) fret down. From there you check the 7th fret, essentially the mid point between the two anchors, to see if the neck is either bowing down (big gap) or bowing up (no gap, but gap on either anchor).
Now, it could be in your case that the neck it bowed up, so there is a higher action at the higher frets, but there should also be higher action in the lower frets as well.
Also, I just re-read your statement. I'm not sure which way you are coming from, diagnosing, or trying to change the action. But, the neck relief is NOT the method to fix your action. You should use the truss rod to set the proper amount of relief - some like a flat board, most others like a little relief.
After the neck is properly adjusted, go to the nut to make sure the height is OK, then adjust the saddle. It's the nut and saddle that should be the contributing factors in your guitar's action.
It could just be a simple requirement of adjusting your saddle, lower it a tad.
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Post by cynical1 on Oct 15, 2012 9:14:53 GMT -5
Hello, is there any way, according to your experiences, that adding neck relief *does not* impact string action at the higher frets? No. Any bow, regardless of direction, will have an impact on string height. Physics is. You can use a shim in the neck pocket to minimize the effect if the condition is not something that can be remedied through the truss rod or bridge adjustments. If I understand your question, the answer is a dead flat neck profile. This is something you will need to continually monitor as seasonal changes will occur in most parts of the world and your neck will most likely move with these changes. If you goal is the lowest action on the planet than expect to be reviewing your setup on a regular basis, or find a very good tech in your area and just bite the bullet. Without beating the same dead horse we've beaten on before, guitar setups are always a compromise to achieve one benefit at the expense of another. Dead flat may offer you advantages way up on the neck, but will have a potentially detrimental effect as you move down the neck depending on the style\technique employed by the player in question. No. Most guitars\basses will have some bow to them. Back bow is commonly considered to be a bad thing. Dead flat is usually a shredders neck profile and constant diligence is the price you pay for playing at warp speed. Happy Trails Cynical One |
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Post by 4real on Oct 15, 2012 15:28:31 GMT -5
Hello, is there any way, according to your experiences, that adding neck relief *does not* impact string action at the higher frets? I mean, is there such a neck bow profile that would make the above happen? If yes, is such a profile considered "common"? Feels like a 'leading question' where it is leading is a little obscure... The neck angle and relief and how thick and low a string is vibrating (which detirmines how much room the string needs to vibrate before it hits the frets) along with the playing style, a softer touch will usually mean you gon't get an explosive attack to the note that requires room to move before settling down, etc. Every player too likes a different feel, often on different parts of the neck...there is no one 'best' neck profile... There are no-nos though and some things that are wise and others to consider...  It is possible to make or have a neck relief and neck angle where the higher frets 'rise' or the flatness leaves little room, often then really good guitars are desisgned to ahve some 'fall-off' at the very higher frets to allow room for the string to vibrate, with out that, in some places, the end of teh board will effectively rise and so fret out. So the neck is a subtle S shape of sorts. You are unlikely to want a 'twist' in the neck though. The thing is, that if you look around various players, action and neck relief and all that varies a lot. There is no 'holy grail' or bragging rights really about the lowness of an action per se, just what works for you and what you want to do with the guitar. 'Shreding' guitars tend to be very limited in what they can do, in my experience. They can do the fast thing because the strings are so light and low that you can pull off and hammer on easily with those thin wires, especially with higher frets, and it is 'faster' because the effort and time it takes to depress a note is far less and so makes for less 'flams' between teh left and right hand. However, it will compromise other aspects. Thicker strings will increase output and the body of the tone as well as intonation, with a higher action a crisper attack and so be great for rhythmic stuff. You might reach a compromise, but you can't really ahve everything. For some players, the 'ultimate' is that easy action that allows super fast running around of scales, which is cool, but often musically...well...each to their own. Once one gets to a certain 'speed' I feel that you will often just be going through the motions as there is a limit to how fast one can actually 'think' about what one is playing. The best players use such speed as a 'gesture' musically in my observation. An audience that looks for and hears speed above all else, often looks upon that kind of thing like watching a 'sport' and a guitar as some kind of weapon perhaps. There came a time where the speed and not the imagination and innovation and the 'music' became more important to some than what a player was trying to say. In the end, it's reduced to how 'fast' one guy can play over 'what' they play...the instrument to how low an action and such, over say 'versitility' and that kind of thing. Anyway, a little aside...but not sure what you are reaching for or if there is a problem or trying to win a debate on some other more infantile forum perhaps. ... There is a neck relief where the higher action is in the middle of the board and gets lower at the high end, consider neck relief in combination with the neck angle. But there is no 'perfection' for all players and only generalizations withon certain styles of play and players. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2012 0:59:45 GMT -5
4real I always enjoy reading you man! I know all the theory, physics, maths, geometry needed to address this question that i posed. I was referring especially to the "hump" profile and roughly also to the "rise in tongue" profile (although the latter is not the typical manifestation of the problem) as shown here :  In those cases adding relief makes a bow in the center of the neck and does not contribute to higher action in the higher frets. So the question was if those two cases are considered normal. Are they considered common in med-high end guitars? Are they considered common at all? If yes at what percentage ? It started off as an answer to a thread in a greek forum, where the "master" DIY luthier was "teaching" the masses with some unbelievable BS. It made me so nervous that I answered a little harsh, and now i face ban. Not a problem. The same dude was blatantly teaching young players that: 1) adding relief adds action only to medium/lower frets. 2) REMOVING RELIEF might eliminate buzz in the higher frets. Those two statements (standing alone, with no other assumptions) are blatantly false. I just wanted to verify this. |
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Post by sumgai on Oct 16, 2012 11:36:02 GMT -5
pyrros, Two things: 1) You're correct, you do already have all the facts at your disposal, and insofar as I can tell, you've related them correctly. Yon bozo is just that, a clown with an ego the size of The Hindenberg. But please, allow me to suggest an alternate method of putting him down: simply request that he reconcile his (wrong) statements with those from many, many other websites and forums. You might say "Hey, I'm wondering here, who's statements are correct - yours or all these other folks?", and then list off a half-dozen links (or more, if you're feeling really mean-spirited  ). That should shut him up. 2) If I didn't know any better (oh, wait... I don't know any better!), I'd swear English is your mother tongue - most of the time your grammer and spelling are better than mine!  How come is that, pray tell?  HTH sumgai |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2012 12:12:26 GMT -5
Thanx sumgai!
If i do what you propose, the guy (along with the army of admins/mods) will come up with some word-play and try to shut me down.
Being a greek (or whatever ethnicity in the greater middle east region) has some serious "brain" (read : retardation) toll. I am really ashamed. I am ashamed that i have to become an animal even to be able to express some basic human thinking.
It is the fate of the middle eastern man....
PS
about grammar/spelling there is spell checker in firefox, drop a line if you need any help with that.
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Post by 4real on Oct 16, 2012 22:18:06 GMT -5
Thanks, lucky I type fast! It seemed like that kind of question, probably not winning the 'debate' and that the mods are likely more concerned about being 'harsh' (to which one might appologise and watch that in future, regardless of others statements) than either party being 'right'. Most forums, some a lot more than others, are driven largely by ego's, this forum is a lot clearer than mojo, misinformation and abuse than some. However, a lot of that is from being a small community and a specialized nature. It would not be appropriate to use GN2 as an authority on many of these kinds of technical things, now a wiring thing, perhaps... The general set up is a small relief (not sure why it's called a 'hump' here, I would think of that more as a back bow thing)... All these things are illustrating a traditional acoustic gutiar neck and 'tounge'. On a bolt on neck, the tounge is less of an issue, but still some 'fall off' at higher frest can be advantageous. But some things need to be incorporated into the build and fretting perhaps, not just something one can 'adjust' out with a truss rod. Regardless, what people prefer is up for the player to feel comfortable with. I can't see any reson why one would want a 'back bow' for instance, asking for trouble. Upbow much the same, unless one plays first position strumming perhaps. Strainght has it's limitations, the string needs room to vibrate. My suggestion as to such problems, even though english is a second language, is perhaps to find a forum or forums that will accomodate and give sensible discussion and supportive learning environment with out the posturing. This is rare, and it takes a community and rules and good moderation...and the care of members to want that kind of thing. But, lots of people like to use such meeting places to get a little 'virtual fame' and authority or to push bragging rights (which often in itself creates misleading information and mojo). This is the character of such places, like most of YouTube. The guitar community, some segments more than others, are obsessed with 'competition' and so there is some 'cut and thrust'. Here it's tended to be different. There are people that have particular skills or have done things and projects and references to those things that they can contribute. We are all learning from each other and generally whateer some one wants to say, wire, there are nutz that will contribute to make that happen if possible. This is relatively rare it seems. Nothing anyone says really is an 'authority' on things, there is some humility here and open to challenges. I guess it depends on the kind of community that you want to be a part of and what one does to foster that kind of environment. I'm not sure what forum this is and perhaps the number of greek language forums are limited. Certainly it seems as if that the more 'select' a language, the less international scrutiny and variety is offered. Here you see people from all across the world, some even more. You are from the mediteran, some of us are from Oz (my home town has a huge greek community) and others on the opposite side of the globe in the UK..and who else...oh there are a few from the USA...and a few from other parts of the world too. (oddly, few if any women as is typical on guitar forums...hmmm). I've had people report to me some of the stuf that's been lifted from me or others and posted in portugal say, thinking that the community would not see the plagerisim, and that kind of thing seems common, or so it seems. Anyway, winning 'points' is generally not worth it, mods are likely more concerned with conduct than on being right, and perhaps that is not a 'home' for you, you know. just to be complete... To this uestion, yes it is, it is common to ahve a neck relief, and is usually necessary, the string is only 'straight' when at rest, when vibrating, it is eliptical. The neck needs some relief to accomodate this, neck relief provides for this generally. A lot of guitars are bolt on, so the tounge rise is less of an issue, though unless the correct neck tilt is allowed for with a shim, this can be simulated because the neck and set up is too flat. It may be that this is what the guy was trying to say. You can get 'lower' in the higher region of the neck (and all over) with some relief. You can't do that with a dead straight neck and so the strings will need to rise all the way along to avoid 'fretting out' and so, higher on the higher frets. So, does that make sense, without seeing what this guy was suggesting, he may indeed have been suggesting this, so you could indeed be alittle 'wrong', as this was an open question and so did not put forward your opinion on such things for criticism. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2012 1:09:01 GMT -5
4real, thanx, your input on the forums is much appreciated.
Surely i agree that some neck relief is mandatory if we want to have a fairly low action and at the ability to play chords at the lower (left) frets, without major buzz. But my point was not this! I explain :
I think that you miss-interpreted the "hump" profile with that "controlled relief" profile. By profile i do not mean the shape that the truss rod gives to the neck, but rather the variable shape (or how the shape of the neck operates) as a function of turning the truss rod. So i put it more in its "dynamic" sense, rather than a certain "snapshot" in time.
Now, maybe my english is not as good as sumgai thinks, cause only sumgai understood what i wanted to say.
Let me rephrase my question more explicitly :
1) Lets say you buy a guitar (new), and this guitar belongs to the medium-high segment lets say it costs over 700 EUR (about 900 USD or AUD). You measure the relief at lets say 9th fret (with 1st/19th fretted/capo'ed) and you find this to be 0.7mm. You also measure string height at 21th+ fret (with the string open) and you find it lets say 2.5mm, low E.
Now you turn the truss rod clock-wise and reduce the relief to lets say 0.2mm. You measure again string height at 21th+ fret (with the string open again) and you find the string height exactly the same!
Would you keep that instrument?
2) is there any "sane" possible explanation that would justify the following scenario?
"We have buzz at higher frets (17+). We reduce relief, and we experience less buzz"
Personally i find 2) impossible in 100.00% of the occasions.
Well those dudes were saying just this :
a) generally, truss rod adjustment does not impact string height at higher frets (<-IMO 100% false)
b) there is a slight possibility (the word "slight" was introduced later) that reducing relief might reduce fret buzz (<- IMO 100% false as well, there is no such case)
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Post by sumgai on Oct 17, 2012 1:30:18 GMT -5
If i do what you propose, the guy (along with the army of admins/mods) will come up with some word-play and try to shut me down. Sometimes you just have to bite your tongue, if you want to keep swimming in their pool. Rest assured, there'll come a day when Mr. Mouth gets a Royal beat-down. If you're not the one to deliver it, what's the difference - he still got corrected, and that's all that matters. Here, have a laugh, and then forget about it:  In searching for that image, I found these lyrics to a song on Soundclick, hope you find them appropriate: Someone's Wrong On The Internet © 2010 Greg Swartzentruber I know it's getting' late now dear But there's something I gotta do I'm almost done; a couple minutes hon I'll be up to bed real soon You see, Someone's wrong on the internet I gotta try to set him straight Someone's wrong on the internet Something's wrong with his fool brain Soon as I get through to his head I'm gonna hold you close in bed But someone's wrong on the internet I won't be up too late I know its 2 AM now dear This troll still just don't get it He's outta line, I gotta change his mind Think I'll try this other method You see, Someone's wrong on the internet I'm gonna try to set him straight Someone's wrong on the internet Something's wrong with his fool brain Soon as I get through to his head I'm gonna hold you close in bed But someone's wrong on the internet I won't be up too late B~ I'll be fine at work tomorrow I can take a nap at my desk I'll just click over once or twice To see if this fool is still obsessed You see, Someone's wrong on the internet I'm gonna try to set him straight Someone's wrong on the internet Something's wrong with his brain Soon as I get through to his head I'll be holding you close in bed But someone's wrong on the internet I won't be up too late (Don't bother looking for the actual tune, it's terrible - and the guy can't sing, either.  ) I didn't make myself very clear. I'm not worried about grammer and/or spelling, I never took less than an "A" in class for those things. What I was asking about is how come you can write your posts in English as if you were thinking in this language? If I had to guess, it seems to me that when you were very young, you lived in an English-speaking country for at least awhile. sumgai |
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Post by 4real on Oct 17, 2012 2:06:05 GMT -5
It's not likely your english, more my brain, been having a tough time and typing off the cuff... Ok, well from a superficial reading there, I'd ahve to agree. If you straighten a relief, all the strings will come down...it's geometry...so I agree with you 'slight' might happen if there is an area where the fretgoard lifts, maybe...or needs perhaps a change in neck angle say on a bolt on...but generally I agree with you there too...though, I've not seen the context of the discussion. Thse things are not in isolation, neck releif needs to be considered with other adjustments like overall string height and angle. On some guitars where there is no way of adjusting the higher frets, say on an acoustic or les paul, you cant control for a lot of that with a truss rod, so yes I can see where it is possible that some of these senarios are possible. Let's see. You have a Les paul, fixed to the 15th fret or there abouts and mighty stiff in that area and unmovable beyond that. You can't 'shim' it and the truss rod does not operate over the whole neck... Yeah, I can imagine where this effect might be observed, but it needs to be put into the concept of other adjustments. It is possible that the result of neck relief creates and 'up tounge' situation and the whole action would need to be raised not to fret out. Reduce reief and lift the strings a little, you well may get an overall and certainly high end reduction in string height. You cant consider things like relief without the other things that will need to be adjusted to make it work. On aspect one, havinga bit of a brain fart I will admit. If the guitar is an LP type, again. That end of the fretboard is fixed and immune to the truss rod adjustment. I the bridge hight remains fixed, well then...you adjust 1/2mm, which is tiny (for imperialists), and measure the highest fret on a fixed part of the bridge...well tehre may well be a difference, perhaps a 1/4mm but now we are getting to a hairs breath of difference...is your measureing tools really 'that' accurate? Would I keep or buy that guitar. Well, I've been shopping about of late looking for $1k plus guitar, and played a few and I got to say, very few to none of the instruments, even far higher examples, are set up in terms of action and feel, anything like what I would consider 'playable'. Only a few have I considered extremely good...that was a $6k+ taylor limited, there have been a few in that range to be fair, but I wasn't going to touch em LOL. Thing is that these kind of tiny things are a little over the top in my opinion. A race to the 'lowest action', there is more to how a guitar feels and plays than that, it does not detirming things. I've had the opportunity to see things come and go and affected by these 'fads' I can tell you. Most of my guitars are a mixed bunch. The lowest, flateest, thinnest, fastest guitars was/is my serverely 'worked' LP I played since the seventies. However, it is a bit too easy to play if that makes sense. The rush for this kind of feel can be a little excessive I found. It was also a bit of a victim of teh 'brass' era. A time when they inlaid brass under the bridges and brass nuts and...ell brass everything, mine even has brass pickup rings (going green, lol, but it does look kind of cool)...bit jumbo frets and super low actions and flat boards. Some people even shaved the necks down like some ibanez wizard thing. Wait a few years and we discover that 'brass is a tone sink' and the PAF's in it are desirable, that people are going back to stiffer 'baseball bat' necks (looking at you beck) and all that kind of thing. I'm not sure what the reply was that you gave that was a bit 'harsh' that it set the mods onto you, but I suspect that is the problem, not how right you are or not in the information. I suspect as far as they are concerned, they don't care about that kind of thing. Back away from it with them, though of course free to discuss it here. .. But hey, I understand the obsession and the pitfalls. I also understand a desire to contribute to a forum in your own language and regional interests and such. Not everyone speaks english or expreses themselves in it as well as you. I can say though, I happened aross an Oz forum recently and got pretty p  d at the kinds of things being discussed, so don't think that this is uncomon or regional. In fact, one wonders if every forum goes to this kind of evolution. There will become prominent people in any foruma and there will always be 'experts' within a community that will no more and so hold more 'weight'. In such a male dominated kind of thing as guitar forums (I know women play guitar, they might not like the culture though) there are going to be those driven by ego, that's not a dirty word (as the Oz classic goes). Many though become dominated by a handful of those personalities. Fortunately here, there is a small community and a very narrow interest (guitar wiring) and where people are more skeptical and can salve their ego by actually being helpful, and not promoting too much GAS and such. It will equally accomodate someone that wants to go 'nuts' with a wiring scheme if that's what is desired and try and work that out...but will be equally see the benefit of a guitar with no visible pickups. On my guitars, there may be stuff 'under the hood' but there was admiration for the attempt to make things clean aund unfussy and functional. However, their would be equal praise I suspect if it was festooned with switches...know what I mean. This forum, tends not to be typical. There are many well known foums that are honestly 'not welcome' and some completely dominated by certain regions of the USA for instance that are suspicious of foreigners and alternate views or innovations...very conservative. Here, being helpful and making things happen, I think, tends to give people more kudos than the number of posts or points scored in some forum debates. But there is also an underlying humility as well, we are not experts in gutiar setups, though most of us can think through a delema and have a little experience. Often that is more useful than self appointed experts. I know there are people charging a heap of money calling themselves guitar techs that have not worked as many guitars as I have in the last 35+ years...I still wouldn't call me an expert all the same! The internet is a world wide thing, but some just dont want that. Some are 'brand' specific. Some are 'metal' or 'country' or whatever dominated. Most are gear oriented it must be said, though there are a few interesting playing ones. One I frequent these days regularly, is completely asian dominated and it is really hard to navigate around the pictograms to even join...but it has some great stuff in it and friendly people. ... Anyway, if there was an easier way to draw on the computer than I have, perhaps I could ahve illustrated things better so that both is kind of true. I clearly lost the firefox spell checker too in the last crash/upgrade...will ahve to get on to that! |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2012 2:17:50 GMT -5
make myself very clear. I'm not worried about grammer and/or spelling, I never took less than an "A" in class for those things. What I was asking about is how come you can write your posts in English as if you were thinking in this language? If I had to guess, it seems to me that when you were very young, you lived in an English-speaking country for at least awhile. sumgai HA HA, absolutely fantastic lyrics! Now about english, its mostly from reading books + mailing lists. But english OTOH is one of the easiest tangz! |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2012 2:23:31 GMT -5
4real wow !!! i have to get back to read this.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2012 2:59:07 GMT -5
Yeah, I can imagine where this effect might be observed, but it needs to be put into the concept of other adjustments. It is possible that the result of neck relief creates and 'up tounge' situation and the whole action would need to be raised not to fret out. Reduce reief and lift the strings a little, you well may get an overall and certainly high end reduction in string height. You cant consider things like relief without the other things that will need to be adjusted to make it work. you nailed it man.... But : a) is "up tongue" considered typical? is it considered feature of the expensive instruments? How can it happen when this part of the neck is screwed (or glued in) the body? Maybe this thing happening denotes a much worse and heavier malfunction of the instrument? A problematic construction and a bizare function of the truss rod mechanism ? b) the same guy who was driving me nuts was also tearing his clothes apart that the truss rod does not have *any* impact on the right-most (higher) part of the fretboard. go figure. Anyway, about the rest of your text, it is so nice that i cannot commend anything! |
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Post by 4real on Oct 17, 2012 7:24:03 GMT -5
well, depends on the gutiar, on an LP or an acoustic, it can't move higher than where hte neck is set ito the single cut design. On a fender, you have the whole neck and the ability to mess with the neck tilt as well. It won't matter if the truss rod goes the whole length, the body and neck joint is holding that area fast.
So, potentially one could have relief and then a flat spot, or potentially a relief with slight back bow that would also result in an effective slight 'up tounge' situation...
But know this is not something that one would want designed int an instrument nor expect, but things are not how they used to be in terms of quality of woods, selection and manufacturing.
It's not really the manufacturing either, the CNC machines in china or where ever are as good as any other and the progaming that runs it. Wood is not quite how it used to be though and alternatives are not as stable as others. When I hear aobut 'tonewoods' for instance, we are talking about timbers that are suitable for musical instruments...that is that they are able to be worked but incredibly stable and strong.
When you consider the uneven strain on the neck of a guitar and all that. That more is not made in alternative materials or at least reinforcement that can withstand that kind of thing, it is amazing that this kind of thing is not used more for such structural things. But, we are a conservative bunch, so wood it is. If it is mahogany, well some brittle, chippy kiln dried timber that one can loosely call mahogany is used...because that is what the market demands more than anything.
One cool thing about doing up some of these older instruments, like my squiers, they can be improved to pro standards, but at least I know that if the wood was going to move, it will have done so by now.
But, I've not looked at new guitars in a while, I live a long way from any such shops. But have looked around lately and not overly impressed, for myself, even in high end instruments. I guess at a certain level, I'd be looking at getting a competent builder to build what I want in a guitar. But hey, it is not inconcievable at that kind of range, that one could make one's own, there are good parts if you can live without the 'name' and all that.
I'm not sure if the discussion has been about your new guitar, anothers guitar, or just an overall general principle. But these things are typically a complex of things and it is all too easy to look for one thing and have forgotten aobut another. Buzzing, high frets, when it could be something else entirely, like neck relief or a bushing coming loose and getting a sitar effect from lack of down pressure on the bridge. Dont worry, it happened with me with my tele kahler thing...turned out to be a domed intonation screw lifting the string just behind the bridge. A little shim was enough to lift it. But of course, you have to go through everything else again to adjust around the neck angle.
But if so. that seems to be a very low action, at least on the low strings, even with a longer scale, to accomodate thick strings and low, low tunings. I can only go from my guitars. I just reached over and pushed my guitars neck here back and it flexed enough to fret out from perhaps a 2.5mm action on an open string, 12th fret. That guitar has a 56 on the bottom I think and can, though loose, tune down to B or even C with a fender scale.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2012 8:20:44 GMT -5
It was about a general guide that a person put out. The public stormed in to praise their savior, and i simply (publicly) freaked out with what i read. I underlined what i consider wrong (in civil speech) and got ranted and attacked excessively. I guess in some guitar forums in Iran or Afghanistan the climate would be better. We are talking about unbelievable attacks. One other guy at youtube (guitarist), came into my channel (completely unknown and uninvited) started his ranting and after 2-3 posts later he started threatening my family and such. The amount of hatred in these guys should be cause for permanent treatment in some institution. This level of hate makes them incapable of doing any normal work.
Maybe i should start experimenting with higher action heights. The clarity and tone is much better!
Thing is i have run out of time... Things run so fast...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2012 9:17:32 GMT -5
Sometimes you just have to bite your tongue, if you want to keep swimming in their pool. Rest assured, there'll come a day when Mr. Mouth gets a Royal beat-down. If you're not the one to deliver it, what's the difference - he still got corrected, and that's all that matters. If that was the case that would be excellent, but have you ever wondered the case that guys like Mr. Mouth are ... the majority? If you could only see the zombies coming in to attack. One after the other! and no-one with *ANY* argument!! and of course all of them negative... |
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Post by 4real on Oct 17, 2012 15:59:13 GMT -5
Sometimes you just have to bite your tongue, if you want to keep swimming in their pool. Rest assured, there'll come a day when Mr. Mouth gets a Royal beat-down. If you're not the one to deliver it, what's the difference - he still got corrected, and that's all that matters. If that was the case that would be excellent, but have you ever wondered the case that guys like Mr. Mouth are ... the majority? If you could only see the zombies coming in to attack. One after the other! and no-one with *ANY* argument!! and of course all of them negative... Thanks Sumgai, well said, with less words  I have sympathy, if this is the case, time to get out of the water. This is the manner of things I am afraid.... There is a thread currently and for some years at a prominant forum, that is contributed to everyday and so sits at the top of the list...every second post mentions me in derrogetory terms, even as they replicate the work on DIY sustainers that was done on another forum, with little success, as it turns out. There are obseessive people about, this is the same guy under another name. He must have a google search on me, as he's been here under numerous names too as well. Some people don't let go. But, this too is a virtual world, as it happens, my second (after an introduction on this forum) ever post on the internet, 10 years ago last year, was just to say I was interested in this tech and thought about explorign this thing, anyone interested. My ramblings and experiements and failings made something of a chear squad it seems and the 'sustainer ideas' thread, though locked from abuse along with almost every other there...one of the biggest bug-bears that this guy has is that there is the monika 'mr DIY Sustainer' on the posts here, a tag that was given to me and would identify posts here as related to my real name that I naiviely used orginally at the start. My YT account has also come under scrutiny and jeering, resulting in a public revelation of my email address and anything that I watch on YT, not that I post things other than random praise for things I like. These people are trolls and sicophants and...yes ther are obssessional people that will keep this up for decades apparently. So, with that in mind, back away. It sounds like a bad place to be. Also, look to oneself as well and learn from the experience as best one can, this kind of thing happens in the 'real world' too... The internet is a wonderful but savage place where real people interact under the anominity of psudonyms that for many, devolve into...well I am sure you have seen the results...a kind of fantasy level and behaviour that would tend not to be put up in the real world, though the ability to do that, often leaks out into the real world...so there are 'risks'... In this case, you challenged the 'top dog' and the pack decended. In my case, I was seen to be a 'top dog' and so a target for challenge and resentment. Reality is that I was interested (obsessed perhaps) with an aspect of the guitar and stubbon and fanatical enough to work it through in public, with all the blind alleys and personal idiosyncracies that are inevitable to each of us, and although it did eventually 'go some where' there are those that don't like all manner of aspects. Some, that it 'ended' or didn't go where they wanted or far enough. Others, that they did not get the attention, or that I did and felt that for my deficincies, I didn't 'deserve' the notoriety. After bombing anything I might type across any forum, they now have found their own home...well more precisely one guy under several names and some assorted sycophants, and replicating the original thread...sigh...it is time to look away, but it's like some car accident...and even with generous instruction to replicate what I have done, still ahve not got those results after all this time! It does not matter who I am in reality, it does not matter what other things over ten years that I might personally experience...because to many and especially people that have grown up with this kind of tech and culture...internet life becomes real life. The reality is that it is a sick sad world with lots of people in it, and these are some of them. But in particular in forums like these male dominated obsessional on rare and select topics. It is not different than people that are obsessed about a football game and is their only topic of conversation, it is just more nerdy and weird in it rareity. However, the internet provides an avenue, in a whole world, you will find some kindred souls for the most obscure interest. I mean, you and I am on a guitar wiring forum (on opposite sides of the globe)!!! Try if you can to see things in a little perspective too. The internet and guitar forums, some better than others, is full of crap and mojo and all kinds of stuff. Over times, forums develop a kind of 'character' as well. Here, it explicitly says in the names that we are 'nutz'. But what does it really matter what these people thnk or the notoriety of their "saviour"...you know. It's an obscure forum with a notable lack of interest to women...there's 50% of the population right there. Add to that, there are minorities of the populations that can't afford these kinds of pursuits or access to them. Some may join to pursue things in a virtual world that they do not actually pursue in the real world, so they become virtual experts. I think it can be instructive to reflect and take stock from time to time. Nothing wrong with being 'nutz' about soemthing and learnign what one can. But applying it, not for some virtual expert status on some obscure guitar forum, for your own ends or to help others reach for their goals where you can, is I think, a better stand to take. Anyway, a bit of philosiphy there. GN2 is an exception to many of these things, at least declares it's obscure interest, and generally there is a humility that we are all limited and a bit of a hack on a lot of things, in the nicest possible way. Beside, in the bigger scheme of things, it is a trivial thing that the real majority wont understand why it is so damaging to yourself, though I understand why it is... ... Yeah, clarity of tone... I guess we all have different goals and if you are developing as a player, you will find such things change along with your interest and breadth of interest musically...and so too the kind of things one values in the tools to create it. Take a listen and look and read about a variety of guys you like. I was listening to hendrix's latest (valley's of nepture) yesterday (more albums by far since he died at 27) and recalled an interview with Jeff Beck about him. At the time he was playing 8's and hendrix said, how do you get a good sound with those...back now plays 11s typically and a super high action and a weird floating traditional strat trem. Hendrix, got that slinky feel and sound with thicker strings, and tuning down to get the best of both. The think is to think for oneself and let what you strive for be directed by the instrument. Give up the lowest, fastest, common genre law and mojo and deveop and try a few things, perhaps a few guitars even. This is not a 'competition' in reality, or at least it shouldn't be. There will always be people that appear 'better' in some ways. If you can indulge... I found this player that I like and see that he entered some 'guitar idol III' competition... Well, I admire his sound and technique, but also depth of composition and melody. Ok, well...i was curious, who won then... Yeah, well 'cool' I suppse, though the low action and overplaying effects the end result adversely to my ears. Who's 'better', well someone's got to 'win' in that context I guess. Who knows how one can really 'judge' such stuff...or compare... One of the reasons I'm interested in this 'new wave' of acoustic solo players is that on so many levels, so many players are coming up with new and interesting and musically enjoyable tunes and techniques and approaches to the instrument. I've not heard that kind of thing in electric gutiar that, while there are great players, nothing much has caught my ear musically and for quite some time people seem to be locked into the 80's or something and following the trends which is stopping this kind of thing emerging with that instrument (Maneli is an electric player too, btw) In this 'world' there is an appreciation of innovation and difference generally. Jon Gomm has had amazing success for instance, another approach again... ...I got to see and meet him and had him play within 2' of me LOL. That guitar is a great example of the form following the function. Interesting, one of his biggest influences is Vai and he does a bit of shredding, but that guitar has evolved to what he wants to do. He has two guitar strapped, I think 5 pickup systems and mics in it, he has a big 'pad' duct taped to the back to keep it at just the right angle and stable on the straps and prevent noise against his body...and huge strings, tuned down a tone from which he 'downtunes' from there. And a relatively high action compared to typical shredders. Two tuners are banjo pegs for bending with them. I dare say that few could play it, it must be an extremely 'live' instrument, but live he has perfect control over the thing. SO, yeah, think about what you might be aiming for, consider what is required to do that and experiement. Forget the 'mojo' and what others i might desire, lose the 'competition' and enjoy the instrument and the journey with it. When I saw him, he asked if there was any guitar players in the audience (he does a bit explaining how he does all that at once by breaking it down)...to which someone yelled out something like, I was till now. He called on this kind of thing (which is common these days), as an artist like this would wish to inspire. He said that some of his favorite players 'play like they have boxing gloves on'...ever heard of John Lee Hooker! And you know he is right, this is not a competition, except with yourself. Think like this, and you may well find yourself 'breaking some rules' and in the process, find something that really catches your imagination, perhaps even those of others... |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2012 2:46:24 GMT -5
man your text is huge, and more huge is the truth that it bears. (yes i read it all!) I wish i had time to comment to all those nice things you said. Just one comment, i cannot get it how zombie trolls intended to harm a person that writes in your manner. Now about action : you are absolutely right, i will : - send the partscaster and the ancient aria strat copy rest back in my home town, (after i give them a proper refret : aria deserves this) - keep just two of the axes (carvin dc135/kramer 210) in shredder-ready state - make the ibanez arz800 blues friendly, and increase the action (or just put 11's LOL!!!, ok, i will raise the action!!) <--- this has a fantastic sound with higher action : 1.5mm/2.0mm @12th high/low E, now it is at 1.2mm/1.7mm) - and .......... buy a new fender american standard for strat tone? do you find this stupid (the last one?) |
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Post by 4real on Oct 18, 2012 3:48:29 GMT -5
Well, I thought I'd share that with you, and sum's post and graphic is worth considering too. It's hard and one is affected by such things, but in the end, rise above it and row your own course...
That's a lot of guitars in a recession, or is it a depression yet...out of my league LOL...even as I embark on a new guitar quest...
It depends on what you want to play, you know. Personally I really like strats for all kinds of reasons and a grand and diverse history for all kinds of music...surf, country, all the way through to hendrix and my fave trem system...
Presently I am heading acoustic or acoustic electric you know. My tele was my main guitar for a while there, but the strat always felt more 'comfortable' to me, I don't know what it is about a tele that makes it feel so differnt and a challenge.
However, I used to be very much a 'one guitar guy' for perhaps 20+ years. As a teen I thought the way to go was to get the 'best guitar' possible...late 70's so the start of modding and a few trends that I too fell 'victim' and an odd time. I was able to buy a Les Paul, about '69 or perhaps later second hand for $500 back then. I played that one guitar for everything, rock bands of course, but I even did a duet with a girl singer, a jazz band...even surf for a bit. The theory being is that this is a world class guitar, the sounds are in it, now get to work.
I'd modify that philosophy later, but it took a long time. That period was a time of punk and then bands like direstaits and then the 80s with the likes of EVH and the strat and variations were 'king' and here I was lugging around soemthing that weighed like 2 house bricks. It wasn't really tioll 'slash' came along that it came back in vogue...though I grew up in an era where the LP was the rolls royce, kossoff, page, even beck, etc...
The LP was not that practical and now too valuble to late out and have not played it in years.
In the gallery you can see my 'take' on the big three LP, tele, strats with a twist and to my kind of thing which included a lot of subtle trem stuff...
These days, as I say, I am going the other way, away from pure electrics, and while the jazz box thing was a really interesting project, it is not possible to get that to a higher enough quality for me, but the ideas worked really well and unique and could one day turn into something a 'different'...
Acoustics and acoustic electrics do have a cool factor and I've always played my old epiphone ($40 in a market way back when) and I've not found a guitar that feels better to me, or much like it in the low end. It's showing a little too much were though, time to get serious int hat direction me thinks. But, I am still interested in amplification and tinker and some projects in mind, even for that kind of instrument. Anyway, it is cool to have a guitar at hand that does not require amplification and to woo the ladies, etc...this is a big 'growth area' and there are a heap of amazing players out there, often bringing across 'electric' techniques and developments in designs too, though far harder to 'build' of course.
So, sure, strat, why not. But don't just collect these things. The 'tinker' in me would be to try and make a silk purse out of a sows ear, or at least try and make something that will do the things that I want in terms of feel and sound without the 'hype'. That's why my "fenders" are high end squiers and such, built up with new pups and most hardware. For me, I'd found a heap of things that I 'like' or demand in a guitar. Noiseless pups with their own character, perfect intonation and tuning with the trem, locking tuners...that kind of thing. What you might desire could be different and over the years, your taste in music and sounds will change, as will the 'fashions' change too you know.
Don't get too much GAS you know! I've been researching my 'new guitar' now for months and while I thought I'd decided, just had a last minute change of heart on it...so who knows...the search goes on.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2012 7:03:07 GMT -5
!!! Fascinating your guitar history man!!!! Mine started about in 1984 with the aria (strat copy), you know, classic rock, metal, then came the thrash era, i formed a thrash band in 1990 and crushed my aria in the elevator, (broke a tuning key), also i had dropped it from a bridge once as well, by mistake, as a matter of fact i felt as well lol. I had a concert so i bought whatever was beef-ier at the store : the kramer 210. Years passed and about 2000 i got the Carvin used left hand, converted it to right (floyd rose, switches , pups) everything. At 2010 i started with the partscaster project and joined the nutzhauz!! Then i broke my wrist then i spent all summer 2012 almost certain i should buy a real "les paul" and a real strat. I was considering spending 3000 for those two (1600 LP traditional + 1400 fender american deluxe). Then i came across the ibanez, and it sounded very good in comparison to the les paul studios and epi les pauls. And also decided to stick to my partscaster and make a proper "strat". Then i started to not like my partscaster, cause of the sustain problems (all the others Aria, Ibanez, and especially the Carvin (neck-through) and the king of them all Kramer 210 (bolt-on) have amazing sustain). So i thought that Aria is too old and the neck not so strong and the russ rod's access is from the heel side  . Also the partscaster i thought will never be perfect, and i hate the headstock writing "FENDER" when it is a very cheap chineze imitation (btw very good neck ... but not perfect.. bought it for 75 euros, shipping included from china). So i thought my partscaster ... has smth missing... At times even the Aria sounds better... SO i decided to retire those two guitars...... and stay with 3 (Carvin/Kramer/Ibanez)... i mean even the 3 of them are a pain to maintain correctly.... and i dont even play that frequently .. i mean getting home late and having to teach smth the kids, or watch some tv silent with the wife  and then str8 to bed to rest for the next day..... you know work/family routine life, not much time for party.... and i have already spent too much time with this problem with the ibanez.... but damn i want a strat.... i am terrified at the thought of de-strat-ification!! |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2012 7:23:23 GMT -5
also wife likes a lot, either the bluesy low mids of the ibanez (clean, middle position, tone at 5) or position 2 of the strat for pink floyd "crazy diamond" sounds.
So i think i must stop drop tunings and shredding and focus on something that is pleasant to others as well. (and avoid greek or <insert your bad forum here> forums, and stay tuned to the GN2)
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Post by 4real on Oct 18, 2012 14:23:05 GMT -5
There you go, one more karma point for what it's worth  Obviously on a site like guitar nutz it is a recongnition that the guitar or even some obscure aspect of it can become an obsession and becomes a part of one. But it does sound like you are putting things in prespective on the forum thing and I know that can be hard to do...but a skill to develop, I know I've not done it. Still, it does allow people from all over the world to have and share conversations with like minded or interested people. I also see the comment about the wife and kids to be heartening. You know, this is something that, even if they are not so interested, the purpose of the things, to make music, usually is or could be. Who is the audience that you most want to reach in this pursuit? Yourself, sure, others that have to share your time and resources...or some guys that you might not even like or know to be accepted into that 'tribe' by your knowledge of guitar or how 'good' you play as set by others (ie, how fast one plays, how many stretchy jazz chords you can play, how little 'theory' one might have under one's belt and still sound good). These are important things to think about and I think there is some responsibility there too, to help others close to you understand why this is such an important part of one's life and identity. It is after all a fair enough question for them to ask "what about us' and the next thing you know, you are in another 'competition closer to home, if you know what I mean! Besides, playing for non-guitar players or thinking like that can be more enjoyable and reset one's priorities. The majority of people really do like a good melody or a catchy bass line...or just a beautiful 'shimmery' chord...or so it seems, or perhaps I am just getting old... |
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). That should shut him up.
How come is that, pray tell? 
)
and then str8 to bed to rest for the next day..... you know work/family routine life, not much time for party.... and i have already spent too much time with this problem with the ibanez.... 