A little experiment

[boilermaker]

I've got a Strat that I built (a friend cut the body) and wanted to do something differant with it. The basic idea is a Tele in Strat clothing; eg, two pickups, two pots, 3-way switch.

The thing is that the pickups that I intend to us are a Gold Lace Sensor and a DiMarzio HS-3. I don't know what these are going to sound like in the "together" position but I'm wondering if anyone has any suggestions about whether to use 250k or 500k pots and what sort of value capacitor to use (and whether I should add a resistor to the mix)?

[zjokka]

hi there,

the telecaster-setting is indeed a very interesting mod for a strat. but there really is no reason to put in only 2 pickups if you can switch the middle pickup of. Big part in the telecaster sound is the bridge, so you might want to consider that if you have to buy one anyway (also cheaper than strat tremolo system of course).

I see no reason not to use 250k pots, 500k with tele might be too thin. But what would be a really great experiment is to use real telecaster pickups. Do think that with a tele bridge and tele pickups, it would really sound and be a tele. Maybe that's what your looking for. As for the cap, I would start with a 0.022uF and just take it from there.

do let us now how it ends up.
Johan

[boilermaker]

Thanks for the suggestions but part of the reason I want to use these pups is that I already have them... Besides, I wanted to try "Strat" pickups in a Tele configuration. Except that instead of it being set up as Neck/Bridge it'll be Neck/Middle. I'm not really looking for a Tele sound; just the two and two set up. Since these aren't "standard" pups I thought a simple layout, like this, might be interesting. Personally, I've never been much of a fan of bridge pickups either in a Strat or Tele; too harsh and brittle for my liking. The only time I use the bridge pup on my Strat (wired for 7 combinations off a 3-way switch with master tone) is on the neck/bridge position.

Another thing that I have to decide is which one to put at the neck and which one in the middle... Right now I'm leaning toward the Lace at the neck and the DiMarzio in the middle...

[zjokka]

How much do the pickups read on the multimeter? that could be indication for pot and, consequently, cap value...

Else, I don't quite understand what your trying to do. The position of the pickups (strat N and M) that you use will have way more influence on the sound than than the type of pickups. Remember that pickup don't 'have a sound' but transmit it. If you take your bridge pickup off your strat, there's nothing tele about it. Using Neck and Bridge pickup (which you say you like) has at least the spacing between pickup like a tele.

Your original post didn't indicate you were talking N + M.

Apart from the master tone control, your experiment will not give you any new tones you don't already have on your strat. Just different pickups and different guitar. You don't need to sacrifice N+B on either guitar.

but I might be missing something...

Johan

[boilermaker]

All I'm doing is putting together a Strat with two and two (pups/pots). That's what I meant by Tele. Not like a Les Paul. I'm not trying to make it look or sound like a Tele. I'm just eliminating the bridge pup from the Strat configuration and using one volume and one tone with a 3-way switch, a la a Tele.

But, of course, the DiMarzio is a stacked HB and the Lace is, what, a pseudo-HB (?) which is why I thought someone might have a suggestion about pots and caps and resistors and which one they thought would be better suited to which position...?

[RandomHero]

When it comes to pots, it all depends on what kind of tone you like. I've seen production model guitars with 500k pots for single coils and 250k pots for humbuckers, it all depends. Traditionally 250k pots bleed more treble to ground, so they're used with SCs to take out some of the bite. 500k pots retain more of the original signal, and since a lot of PAFs and other humbuckers aren't heavy in the treble frequencies, you want to retain as much of them as possible.

Another option you might try if you like a -lot- of "glass" in your tone is a 1meg pot. It keeps almost the entire signal from your pickups. It would make a similar sound to having your pups wired directly to your jack; no treble attenuation at all.

Keep in mind that treble counts for noise too; 250k pots are going to make a guitar a lot quieter than 1Meg pots, because they'll bleed off the treble-oriented hum and noise coming from your pickups as well.

It's been a while since I messed with tone caps so someone else will have to fill you in on those... hope I helped!

[boilermaker]

Thanks, Randomhero. In terms of tone I prefer a certain warmth and thickness but definately single coil-like. For instance, on the Strat with the 7-combos/3-way switch/master tone I have a set of Texas Specials with 500k volume pots and a .1 microfarad cap. I like that size cap in this set up because it really turns the tone quite velvety without making it sound muffled.

From what you say I kinda like the idea of 1 meg pots. Certainly worth a try.

[UnklMickey]

zjokka said:

The position of the pickups (strat N and M) that you use will have way more influence on the sound than than the type of pickups.

i agree. in addition, some of the "tele-ness" come from the covered neck pup, the severe angle on the bridge pup, the mounting of the pups and of course the plank itself.

a neck / middle combo is gonna sound like a strat on 2. especially if the pups are mounted on a plastic pickguard over an open cavity. guess that would be "half a strat in strat's clothing".

if the bridge pup sound is too harsh or brittle for your taste, maybe move it a bit farther away from the bridge, but still closer to "bridge" than "middle".

other possibility, keep it in the bridge position and use a 2pole switch to have either:

a -- multiple tone pots, one that is active only when bridge-only is selected

b -- a pre-selected resistor/cap network that is active only when bridge-only is selected

wait, one more, try adding a resistor in parallel with just the bridge pup, as you start loading it down, about 100k ohms, it'll lose a lot of the highs before the mids and bottom go away, to find the value that works, just bypass the cap on your tone pot and turn it down to where you like the sound. then remove the bypass and measure the resistance. put a resistor of that value in parallel with the pup.

U.M

[UnklMickey]

that's twice today that i've walked away in the middle of writing a reply and sent it after other info had changed. sorry boilermaker, that last post referred to old info.

U.M.

[boilermaker]

FWIW, the body that my friend cut for me is alder with a flame maple lam top, rear routed. But the flame was way too subtle so I made a pickguard out of some nice vibrant quilted maple (1/8th in thick). Because my friend had also drilled the pots in the wrong place I had to make the pickguard an odd shape (a bit like the Strat Elite). This is why I decided to go for just two pups and two pots. So, there's not a lot of body cavity routing and the only plastic are the pup covers.

I don't know how much of a differance all of that makes but, again, the essence of my query is with regards to the oddball pup choice and what value pots/caps and/or resistors people might suggest. Not whether it's a Strat or a Tele...

[zjokka]

boilermaker said:

The only time I use the bridge pup on my Strat (wired for 7 combinations off a 3-way switch with master tone) is on the neck/bridge position.

Sorry but how do you get 7 sounds from a 3-way switch? Even with a pushpull you would only be able to access 6....

boilermaker said:

Another thing that I have to decide is which one to put at the neck and which one in the middle... Right now I'm leaning toward the Lace at the neck and the DiMarzio in the middle...

If you have the pickups and are sure you want to use them, just try it. Looking at the pickups won't tell you which is best suited in which position.


I would concentrate on finding some way to make the strat bridge pickup more to your liking. That would be an improvement. I also don't understand why you replace the stock 5-way switch with a 3-way... the 5-way can do anything the 3-way can.

Why don't you look for a way to make your bridge PU sounds acceptable, less britle and harsh?

Johan

[RandomHero]

7 sounds include the stock 5, then N+B, and N+M+B.

[boilermaker]

Johan, the 7 combinations off a 3-way switch is a very straightforward mod that works by making pot #1 into volume for the neck and bridge pickups only; pot #2 is volume just for the middle pickup; and pot #3 is master tone. All you need is a 3-way switch because it works thusly:

Neck Only: Pot #1 = On; Pot #2 = Off; Switch in 1st position
Neck/Middle: Pot #1 & #2 = On; Switch in 1st position
Neck/Middle/Bridge: Pot #1 & #2 = On; Switch in 2nd position
Middle Only: Pot # 1 = Off; Pot #2 = On; Switch in 2nd position
Middle/Bridge: Pot #1 = On; Pot #2 = On; Switch in 3rd position
Bridge Only: Pot #1 = On; Pot #2 = Off; Switch in 3rd position
Neck/Bridge: Pot #1 = On; Pot #2 = Off; Switch in 2nd position

= 7 combinations. And let's not forget Master Tone (even on the Bridge pup!). I've been using it for years and while it takes a little getting-used-to it really does provide some very interesting variations without having to use strange pots or switches. I did find, some time ago, that 500k pots help with the dynamic range and I, personally, prefer the .1 microfarad cap.

Here's a link to the diagram:

img.photobucket.com/albums/v211/DamoclesDominion/WiringDiagram.jpg

With this modification I can get a tone, that I'm comfortable with, off the bridge pup and that's why my both of my 3 single coiled Strats are wired this way. This "experiment," however, is all about a simple two pickups layout with a couple of oddball pickups. If I want to "eliminate" the bridge pup from the equation, what's wrong with that?

[UnklMickey]

boilermaker said:

...This "experiment," however, is all about a simple two pickups layout with a couple of oddball pickups. If I want to "eliminate" the bridge pup from the equation, what's wrong with that?...

Absolutely Nuthin'!

i don't presume to speak for Johan, but as for myself, i certainly got the wrong idea as to what you wanted the result to be, from that "tele in strat clothing" phrase in the initial post of this thread. then from the later posts on this thread, it became painfully obvious that i had read WAY too much into that.

the neck and middle environments aren't all that different from each other so with the same pickups in each, you don't hear as much difference between them as you would between middle and bridge.

but, since you will have VERY different pups in the N and M positions the pups WILL sound very different from each other.

if you have the 6k version of the lace gold w/ standard magnets, i would GUESS that the hs-3 will have way more output and be much "meaner".

since the environment in the middle (this is where you'll put the hs-3?) is so similar to the neck it might be necessary to lower the hs-3 considerably more than the lace, so that the hs-3 doesn't overpower it when they're used together.

re: the .1 uF cap. -- i think you and wolf share the same preferrence for cutting deeper into the mids on the tone cut circuit. wonder if opinions from him on the pots & resistors for the pups might also be more in tune with your tastes.