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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2013 1:49:54 GMT -5
Hmmmm, lets re-analyze the situation once again. So it seems super-vee charge their shorty version of their standard block an additional 26 USD with regards to the standard full size block. So in order to get the *same* material-amalgam as the standard, but in less mass, you gotta pay an additional 26 USD. Obviously pricing here has to do with deviation from the company's main product line and not material, tone or anything else. I guess we gotta suspend this, till i get the unit and do a proper review. In the meantime you can spend your time here, discussing something else (if you have anything to say besides praising wudtone 24x7). Probably Wudtone offers a good product. However, the market here is so small and the reviews so rare (even for bladerunner) that it is hard for someone to pull the trigger just because someone else wrote so. Don't get me wrong, if you had a proven presence here and you had wrote in this thread before i made the choice, most probably i would follow the advice. Bit its just not easy to convince me on your 4th post, and *after* i have made the order. You could say e.g. : well good luck, you might consider this or that, etc... but it seems you crossed a certain neutrality line here, hence all the heat thereafter.
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jojoguitar
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Post by jojoguitar on Jul 1, 2013 3:56:47 GMT -5
Hmmmm, lets re-analyze the situation once again. So it seems super-vee charge their shorty version of their standard block an additional 26 USD with regards to the standard full size block. So in order to get the *same* material-amalgam as the standard, but in less mass, you gotta pay an additional 26 USD. Obviously pricing here has to do with deviation from the company's main product line and not material, tone or anything else. I guess we gotta suspend this, till i get the unit and do a proper review. In the meantime you can spend your time here, discussing something else (if you have anything to say besides praising wudtone 24x7). Probably Wudtone offers a good product. However, the market here is so small and the reviews so rare (even for bladerunner) that it is hard for someone to pull the trigger just because someone else wrote so. Don't get me wrong, if you had a proven presence here and you had wrote in this thread before i made the choice, most probably i would follow the advice. Bit its just not easy to convince me on your 4th post, and *after* i have made the order. You could say e.g. : well good luck, you might consider this or that, etc... but it seems you crossed a certain neutrality line here, hence all the heat thereafter. Hey there, I'm not neutral, I have always loved solid steel blocks, all my guitars are fitted with them, probably always will be. We all have bias, opinions, it makes forums what they are. As far crossing lines is concerned, I didn't tell you, you have issues with maths. I do hope I have proved to you, I don't have issues with Maths. I don't spend much time on forums. In this thread I saw misunderstandings / statements about the Wudtone option that were completely wrong. I had hands on experience to know that. I also found use of abusive terms such as snake oil, feldergarb offensive!. As you say info is rare, even the contributors with a proven presence can be full of bulls??t, so I contributed as best I could to give you truthful, more detailed and meaningful info. I don't think analysis is needed, I don't mind what you do with the info. My recommendation still is, ignore the opinions and reviews, try both and see which meets your needs as "they are different in their approach/feel in use/sound/ look" as well as cost etc. I wish you much enjoyment from your guitar. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2013 4:11:36 GMT -5
no worries, bro, same to you.
PS
Many members here have spent countless hours trying to help people (am i usually on the helped side rather than the helper side), and the members you imply are definitely among them. Man, lighten up a little! its only freaking geetarz here, its not nuclear physics or politics of any kind. Peace. I wish you a nice stay here at the forums!
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Post by sumgai on Jul 1, 2013 10:03:45 GMT -5
Well. This has certainly been fun! jojo, I gotta say this, you do have your points and you know how to articulate your arguments, but gd is right, you have been a bit more forceful that our usual contributors in expounding the virtues of the Wudtone product. That's not so bad in itself, and I wouldn't say that you've been unfriendly about it, but sometimes you do call the kettle black, so to speak. Just my take on things, of course.  As to your comment "... use of abusive terms such as snake oil, feldergarb offensive!", you've proven your point about not being neutral, that's for sure.  Each of us is entitled to our opinions, and whether you view any expression of such opinions as well-founded or otherwise, they remain valid for the person expressing them, just as yours do for you. I'm sure you understand that factoid, but I wanted to get it out there for other readers of this topic, especially those have not yet registered as fully qualified Nutz. (Hint, hint. ) Fortunately, this is a rather democratic forum, and not autocratic in the least. You finding offense in what I said, and then lightly lambasting me for it, is quite acceptable. In fact, doing so is encouraged - that's the nature of discovering the truth, discourse between parties with different viewpoints. Which explains why I don't "enter the fray" and try to swing you over to my side - my side is not your side, and we'd both be the poorer for my attempting to persuade you to abandon your views. Speaking of viewpoints.... Funny thing is, I had a customer into my shop a few months ago (thanks, gumbo!) with a Super-Vee on his Ibanez. Asked me to tighten it up a bit, as it was too loose for him. Go figure. Fortunately, it's a big world out there, and for each player with a different (and highly personal) playing style, there's probably a company making just exactly what he/she wants. The only stumbling block between them is, usually, the price. Well, that and the ability to connect between them. Thankfully the Internet is sweeping aside those impediments, slowly but surely. All in all, this is a good discussion, exacly what we're here for. Contributions from new members are highly sought after, regardless of timing in any particular individual's purchasing decisions (take a bow, 'dude....). jojo, do stick around, please. Just keep in mind that greekdude's fiery attitude is part of his heritage, and that he's calmed down a lot since he first showed up here in The NutzHouse. If you think he was getting a bit too personal just now, you should've seen him a year ago - we nearly had to hose the place down with Seconal! That's it for now, but I'm staying tuned to find out what gd thinks of his own Super-Vee. HTH sumgai |
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Post by jojoguitar on Jul 1, 2013 18:30:35 GMT -5
Well. This has certainly been fun! jojo, I gotta say this, you do have your points and you know how to articulate your arguments, but gd is right, you have been a bit more forceful that our usual contributors in expounding the virtues of the Wudtone product. That's not so bad in itself, and I wouldn't say that you've been unfriendly about it, but sometimes you do call the kettle black, so to speak. Just my take on things, of course. As to your comment "... use of abusive terms such as snake oil, feldergarb offensive!", you've proven your point about not being neutral, that's for sure. Each of us is entitled to our opinions, and whether you view any expression of such opinions as well-founded or otherwise, they remain valid for the person expressing them, just as yours do for you. I'm sure you understand that factoid, but I wanted to get it out there for other readers of this topic, especially those have not yet registered as fully qualified Nutz. (Hint, hint. ) Fortunately, this is a rather democratic forum, and not autocratic in the least. You finding offense in what I said, and then lightly lambasting me for it, is quite acceptable. In fact, doing so is encouraged - that's the nature of discovering the truth, discourse between parties with different viewpoints. Which explains why I don't "enter the fray" and try to swing you over to my side - my side is not your side, and we'd both be the poorer for my attempting to persuade you to abandon your views. Speaking of viewpoints.... Funny thing is, I had a customer into my shop a few months ago (thanks, gumbo!) with a Super-Vee on his Ibanez. Asked me to tighten it up a bit, as it was too loose for him. Go figure. Fortunately, it's a big world out there, and for each player with a different (and highly personal) playing style, there's probably a company making just exactly what he/she wants. The only stumbling block between them is, usually, the price. Well, that and the ability to connect between them. Thankfully the Internet is sweeping aside those impediments, slowly but surely. All in all, this is a good discussion, exacly what we're here for. Contributions from new members are highly sought after, regardless of timing in any particular individual's purchasing decisions (take a bow, 'dude....). jojo, do stick around, please. Just keep in mind that greekdude's fiery attitude is part of his heritage, and that he's calmed down a lot since he first showed up here in The NutzHouse. If you think he was getting a bit too personal just now, you should've seen him a year ago - we nearly had to hose the place down with Seconal! That's it for now, but I'm staying tuned to find out what gd thinks of his own Super-Vee. HTH sumgai Hello Sumgai Thank you for sharing your thoughts, glad you had fun. With respect, you entered the fray with your opinion with "I can safely say that this product is a solution looking for a problem. Or to be more blunt about it, it's all snake oil and feldergarb." I think it would be better if folks offered some evidence / reference to their inputs of info, knowledge or better still real experience if they express opinions on products, especially if the person expressing that opinion also feels the need to go on to rubbish the company, accusing them of having products that are questionable or snake oil as you put it. It would help me if you are able to clarify what inputs led you to formulate the opinions you entered the fray with, about the product and company. |
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Post by cynical1 on Jul 1, 2013 19:03:21 GMT -5
Hello Sumgai Thank you for sharing your thoughts, glad you had fun. With respect, you entered the fray with your opinion with "I can safely say that this product is a solution looking for a problem. Or to be more blunt about it, it's all snake oil and feldergarb." I think it would be better if folks offered some evidence / reference to their inputs of info, knowledge or better still real experience if they express opinions on products, especially if the person expressing that opinion also feels the need to go on to rubbish the company, accusing them of having products that are questionable or snake oil as you put it. It would help me if you are able to clarify what inputs led you to formulate the opinions you entered the fray with, about the product and company. JJG - I believe sumgai has addressed your concerns about his comments, offered his opinions, and suggested we all move on. Far be it for me to speak for the big guy and I'm sure he'll be back to address your concerns. However, let's move it along. We got your point. This is an Internet forum. People offer opinions, suggestions, vent their spleen...and occasionally rant. Some of us have been here for years and know the qualifications of members and staff. You get a pass on being new. Spend some time reading the amount of content and knowledge housed here and you should be able to discern the feldergarb from fact. If you feel a snub or slight, try a PM to the member you feel stepped on your toes. We watch flames and outright attacks, and we are not bashful about dropping the ban hammer should someone get out of line. As our distinguished resident counselor might be heard to say, "Asked and answered. Next question." IMHO, the Wudtone is a quality piece of gear. I like the hardened steel used in fabrication. Everything I've read about it points to a well thought out and first class fabrication. The only problem I have with it is that it still holds on to a fundamental design flaw Leo introduced. It still uses a wear point to make the pivot. Time and use will cause it to suffer the same fate as any friction device. I could be wrong, but I believe this is the direction sumgai was going. If it works for you, and you're happy, than that's cool. Some people swear by Floyd Rose, Kahler, original Trem-Leo... Long and short of it is if it works, and you like it, great. HTC1 |
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Post by andypwudtone on Jul 2, 2013 15:25:42 GMT -5
Dear Cynical1,
I hope I am welcome here. I spotted an increase in referrals from google analytics to our site ( thank you for that ) and having looked at your forum, read the thread , I do think in the circumstances, it is right to reply.
Firstly, thank you for your kind words about the Wudtone Constant Pivot Bridge. I understand that the only problem you have with it, is that you perceive it holds onto to a fundamental design flaw. I hope you do not mind but I think it is important to cover this misunderstanding.
I absolutely agree, Leo's design introduced a fundamental flaw, the result of which causes the bridge plate to slide up and down the mounting screws ( which we call bearing screws) and operate as a friction device. This is the cause of both wear and instability of tuning, because the plate doesn't always return to the exact same position/angle.
The Wudtone Constant Pivot plate appears at a quick glance with six screws to share similar characteristics, but in design it is fundamentally different: the differences eliminate any sliding up and down on the bearing screws. It has recesses on the top surfaces of the plate and machining underneath around the bearing screws, all of which ensures it pivots on the bearing screws in the same place, all of the time, 0 - up to 18 degrees of tilt, just like a ball of a ball bearing, rolling on a bearing surface with no sliding.
So eliminating any sliding up and down on the bearing screws, eliminates the primary cause of wear. In this respect the Wudtone Constant Pivot plate isn't a friction device, it is working, with a constant pivot point as the ball of a bearing does. I hope you can accept this engineering principle and explanation. There are other factors to give you even more comfort in terms of time and use causing it to suffer. The Wudtone Constant Pivot Bridge Plate is made from special carbon spring steel with a hardness of 1570Nmm2. To give you some idea how hard this is , if you went at it with a HSS drill you might mark it but you would get nowhere trying to drill a hole in it. The metal of the bridge plate is actually harder than that of common bearing screws even though they are usually hardened and tempered as well.
So in summary, the original flaw with Leo’s design we seem to agree on, has been designed out so that the Wudtone Constant Pivot plate actually operates as a bearing device, not a friction device. The cause of wear and most important for our customers, cause of tuning problems, are eliminated. It is reasonable to say , as with any bearing, time and use will cause it to suffer. I think the worst that can happen is , maybe in 50-70 years time ( it is a guess) you may need to replace £2.30 worth of bearing screws because the harder material of the bridge plate itself will be fine. You can hold me to that claim if you wish! I hope that puts your mind at ease. Can't change the past but let’s not ruin the future worrying about nothing!
Thank you for taking the time to read this.
With regard to sumgai. I simply think there are knowledge gaps. Hopefully this has helped to fill them. I do feel it is unprofessional to make such defamatory comments in the absence of any real understanding.
My residual concern is that readers stopping at that post will gain completely the wrong understanding and impression of our product and company. If there is anything more I can do, or you can do, to help address this, that would be helpful, please let me know.
Furthermore, if greekdude would like to PM me, I'm sure we can find a way for him to know for sure which is the best for him. Proof of the pudding etc. At the moment Wudtone is a bijou artisan enterprise, we don't have to add VAT, customers don't pay distributor mark up, hence the goodies like, cold rolled steel , quality steel nickel saddles can come without an $80 upcharge. Our aim is to simply keep it that way and delight customers one after another.
kind regards
Andy Preston - Wudtone.
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Post by newey on Jul 2, 2013 16:37:55 GMT -5
andypwudtone- You certainly are welcome here! So, Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2! We don't have anything against people posting things concerning their commercial endeavors so long as they are up front about their commercial interests. Several product developers have "picked our (collective) brains" from time to time. So long as they're up front about it, no problem. Same with your bridge design. Presumably, your point addresses Cyn1's concerns, but I'll let him speak to that. With respect to your statement regarding sumgai's comments: His comments concerning "snake oil and feldergarb" referred to your marketing, as per your website. He didn't say you had a bad product or accuse you of being a shady businessman. "Feldergarb" is a term used liberally here, coined by the late ChrisK, to describe over-the-top marketing-speak. To call his comments "defamatory" is a bit much, IMO. Plus, sg was clearly stating an opinion, and statements of opinion are not defamation. As to whether it was "unprofessional", well, we're all (mostly) amateurs here . . .  sumgai's point was that, when set up properly, the original 6-screw trem is just fine. He also makes the (obviously true) point that, at any given time, only two of the 6 screws are actually doing anything. And, your website does have a number of rather over-the-top testimonials, mostly anonymous. I would classify statements like "the best thing since Leo Fender" to be feldergarb, frankly. I say that not having the slightest doubt that the quotes in question are actual quotes. Yes, someone stopping halfway through this thread might be left with a false impression, but you have ably defended your product and its features. If the suggestion you are making is that I should go back and censor someone's posting because you disagree with that person's opinion, well, that's not going to happen. On a more philosophical level, I'm always amazed that there's never much controversy around here, until someone mentions either sustainers or vibrato ("tremolo") bridges. Then, all of the sudden, the floodgates open and controversy inevitably ensues. As someone who tightens all my vibrato bridges down tight and then throws the arm into the case, I'll confess to not understanding the passions involved . . . |
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Post by sumgai on Jul 2, 2013 16:53:04 GMT -5
jojo, Let me reiterate: Fortunately, this is a rather democratic forum, and not autocratic in the least. You finding offense in what I said, and then lightly lambasting me for it, is quite acceptable. In fact, doing so is encouraged - that's the nature of discovering the truth, discourse between parties with different viewpoints. Which explains why I don't "enter the fray" and try to swing you over to my side - my side is not your side, and we'd both be the poorer for my attempting to persuade you to abandon your views. and; To that you replied: With respect, you entered the fray with your opinion with "I can safely say that this product is a solution looking for a problem. Or to be more blunt about it, it's all snake oil and feldergarb." I think it would be better if folks offered some evidence / reference to their inputs of info, knowledge or better still real experience.... (emphasis mine) and; Ya know, I'm guilty here of being lazy. I've been an inmate of the NutzHouse since Dec 2005 (the Roster is off by a year), and only 4 or 5 other core members have been here longer, JohnH and lunnalta being two that I can think of off hand. Due to that time in grade, I tend to think in terms of people being able to read past postings on given topics, and realizing that any qualifications of those posters have already been vetted by the community at large. OTOH, newbies don't always want to read the past archives, they need to have an answer mosh-kosh, and who cares what the responders' pedigrees might be. A careful balance should be struck by posters, but then again, if I had to lay out my C.V. every time I posted, I'd be about 1.5 postings into the "new reules", and I'd give it up for a lost cause. Refer to my first statement, just above. Long story short, c1 has already given you the heads up that I'm more than qualified to render my opinion on these topics. Take my word for it (or don't, your call), I'm an EE, with several years of experience in other Engineering disciplines. But even without that background, one - make that anyone, can apply common sense to a topic, and see that c1 has expressed it correctly - the Wudtone product still has a set of at least two friction points, and again, take my word for it, no amount of treating that steel is going to eliminate, or even significantly reduce, the potential for eventual failure. Wudtone's actual claim is tuning stability, as well as "tone". Let me address that last part later, OK? Tuning stability is a result of many things, but at the bottom line, like all other aspects of the guitar, it's the player who determines what's necessary and what's not. In my case, before I had to stop playing, I used the stock vibrato bridge on my 2005 Strat without any problems - never so much as a cent out of tune, no matte what I did - up, down, wiggle, bash... it all came back to properly in tune. But I could hand that same guitar, with the same strings, to a cohort who had a very light touch, and whenever he "whammy'ed", he'd be off a quarter-tone or worse. I never did figure out how that came about, but I simply chalked it up to "different players, different needs", and let it go. Sleeping better at night is high on my list of priorities, let me tall ya. So, how come different people feel different products fulfill their needs more succinctly? Read the above, but keep in mind, cost is also a factor, probably a big one. Emulation of one's Heros is also a factor, and I'd hazard a guess that this mindset of emulating said Hero probably overrides cost considerations, a lot. Sad, but then again, I'm not my brother's keeper, nor his wallet's keeper. Both of those come down to what Chrisk used to call "feldergarb", a near-German word that can be translated loosely as 'deceptive'. MarketingSpeak was another Chrisk term, and he used them interchangably whenever he saw the need. Which as often, as your Archival rummaging will tell you. In essence, he didnt' suffer fools gladly (he was too young yet), so he pointed out what he knew, and could prove with devastating logic, foibles that were constantly being foisted on guitar buyers. Sort of like outing Monster Cables for being the crazily-overpriced products they are, but in the guitar realm. From that, it's a short step for most Nutz to put two and two together, and come up the real answer and not what the Marketing People want you to believe. Call us all cynical if you wish, but then again, most of us have our wallets fairly intact.... and that can't be all bad, can it?  Now, let's address tonality issues such as sustain and Tone. That last is capitalized because it's why we're all here - we're in search of The Magic Mojo Tone, or whatever you wish to call it. greekdude wants sustain, and places a premium on that factor. I want clean, and hold humbuckers in disdain. But do note, I've contributed my share to Humbucker-centric discussions, even given my personal prejudices... after all, they're just another avenue to expressing one's inner Muse, aren't they? Indeed. So I don't withhold my input, even if I don't have much personal experience with them, in my own personal guitars. Which brings us to your last comment, what are my experiences, etc. Well, I can tell you one thing - unless you're eligible for Medicare, then it's a sure bet that I've been playing longer, working longer, learning longer and in far wider-reaching disciplines, gaining more experience out of this country and in living within other cultures, the list goes on. But take this to heart, if nothing else I've said - I am not gonna reveal all my personal data just to satisfy your curiosity as to my opinions about anything I express herein, particularly the Wudtone products and company. Doing so would render null-and-void all my reasons for posting as "sumgai", eh? (And for the record, at least 5 members here have met me face-to-face, some of them at my home, and 3 others also have my personal home phone number. Hopefully that relieves you of any anxieties on that score.) I hope you've not taken this as a slam, I don't think you're the kind to do so, but I gotta put it out there for anyone who reads this in the future. I didn't take offense at your calling me out on "defaming Wudtone", I don't blame you for that - you're curious and want more info. Easy, we're all in that boat. But at the same time, I need my personal space, and I'm hoping that we can compromise here. Otherwise, I'd have to write a book on metallury, another one on mechanics and physics, another one on psychology (of how one interepets what one senses, in this case music), another one on.... oh, phooey, my brain just farted. Time to go see if I took my meds this afternoon. If I've left anything unaddressed, just ask, please. sumgai p.s. I've searched for the patent application, Google doesn't seem to be able to find it just now. I'll look for it again later. p.p.s. I see that in the time it took me to write this, a new member by the name of andypwudtone has registered and posted. Let me see what he has to say.... BRB OK, I've read it, I'll respond separately. In the meantime, Andy if you're seeing this, Welcome to The NutzHouse! |
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Post by 4real on Jul 2, 2013 18:09:58 GMT -5
Twenty plus years ago, I made my own modifications and such, such as replacing some screws on the existing traditional fender design trems with ball bearings sitting on washers on the guitar and held down by a couple of screws as normal and the whole trem floating. Seemed to work really well and cheap. I ahd an interesting experience with my Khaler Tele which has astonishing tuning stability. I pulled it out of it's soft cas after 18 months to find that even though the strings had been depressed with the arm still atached as usual, the guitar sprung back virtually in tune!  Khalers are incredibly solid and the guitar is too as there is no string cavity which pulls out a lot of wood where you least want wood removed...the strings don't 'rise' with the trem action and in many ways have a feel like a bigsby but with a range further than a floyd. Not cheap though! More modern two point tremolos are fine too, there is no riding up on the screws and such, a big improvement over the origianl design, stronger and the screws more adjustable and sunk deep into brass bushings...  This is the original 'Squier' short cut block with solid saddles that came with the guitar and works great, even in this full floating adjusstment. (I notieced that Wudtone mentions players like Jeff Beck but they actually use this kind of system, adjusted exactly like this to get those sounds and techniques)...the only real 'mod' to this was the Emu leather bounding of the block to look cool and stop 'bnaging' of the block against the guitar if used to the extreme. Honestly though, the real problem with tuning is not really at the bridge end at all IMHO, but far more at the nut and tuners.  Conventional nut with locking fender/schallers and good roller trees...or even better...LSR and locking tuners and no trees as with modern fenders and for players like JB...  On less fender like guitars, a stright string pull and a Tusq graphite nut can also work ok with a little ingenuity...  I suspect that things like saddles have a bigger effect on the 'tone' than people have mentioned here...I put 'string savers' on a cheap strat and found a huge improvment in sound and sustain and perhaps tuning stability...I never seem to break strings, but perhaps that too! And sure when I hear words like 'sustainium' or 'unobtanium' use, well...one can only wonder. Andy, welcome and yes, a cool 'improvement' for those wanting to retain the vintage look, but there are so many options, all of which are no doubt worthy. If people are looking for mojo in the guitar world, there is not shortage of it out there, but really, a little common sense and most systems can work and the style of use of the trem and what people might expect from it is a huge wide canvas...most systems can be made to work and have their fans. |
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Post by cynical1 on Jul 2, 2013 21:01:03 GMT -5
Andy -
It's always refreshing to see a manufacturer show up here. And you are more than welcome to stick around as long as you like.
As I said previously, I like the hardened steel idea and the machining is first rate. I still hold to my initial observation that your design, while a significant improvement over the original Leo design, still presents a friction pivot point. Of all the friction pivot point tremolo units out there, you's is probably one of the best. Rather than toss words back and forth, here's a video I found of your trem unit in action:
I get the point you make that the baseplate doesn't travel along the barrel of the mounting screw. It stays in position rather well in the video. Based on what you say about the hardened steel I would expect significantly more service life than a standard Fender unit and an improved tuning stability.
It does still leave the baseplate firmly against the wood body, and concentrates the wear on one spot of the mounting pin.
Again, to me, this is an improvement, rather than a redesign of the pivot point concept Leo floated decades ago.
Again, this is a first class piece of machining and a step forward from the original design. I've been around machinists for 40+ years, so I feel qualified to offer that. To me, in my opinion, it does not hold the same advantages I see in your completion in the use of spring steel to eliminate the friction point pivot entirely.
Hope that clarifies my original statement.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2013 0:05:25 GMT -5
Interesting data by all.
Personally I agree with SG (on being a little lazy on this), to say it in my words I find that SG slightly exaggerated, I find the official Wudtone's response justified.
My main opinion here, is that Wudtone is a small company (and rather unknown) and as such maybe we should be more supportive, or at least less critical against such companies, to bring better balance in the final judgment, since those companies (as all small entities in nature) might face, besides the obvious competition, also negative advertising, usually not being able to defend themselves in the marketing department.
Now for me the ultimate test would be : measurement of time in seconds that the same digital tuner will keep sensing the note on the 12th fret, G-string of the exact same guitar, with the wudtone (standard edition with no additional callaham saddles) and the same with the super-vee. Another one would be natural harmonic, dive bomb style and then pulling the trem-arm up, for G string 14th fret and measure the seconds that it sustains.
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Post by JohnH on Jul 3, 2013 2:58:34 GMT -5
I never paid much attention to trems until my recent strat with 6 point trem. To start with it was too scary to use more than 15 seconds from end of song. But it's now a lot better after lubing the nut and ignoring the string trees for g and d. But it could certainly be better.
I found the close-up vid on Wudtones site to be very informative. The poor vintage trem us being pryed by the screw head going up and against the body going down, forcing it to slide on the screw. Andy's 'strat'egicly placed recesses fix this issue.
All the trem plate needs is some localised metal to metal bearing contact on two points, with nothing else hard interfering. Other ideas might involve notches, washers and shims, shaped and placed appropriatly
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Post by andypwudtone on Jul 3, 2013 3:35:35 GMT -5
Andy - It does still leave the baseplate firmly against the wood body, and concentrates the wear on one spot of the mounting pin. Again, to me, this is an improvement, rather than a redesign of the pivot point concept Leo floated decades ago. Thank you, just to add. Although, not shown in the video ( apologies for that). We include a stainless spring steel shim.  This fits like a washer underneath the bridge plate. It improves the sensitivity of the tremolo ( further enhances clarity and sustain by spreading the load onto the body). The design criteria was to eliminate the sliding up and down ( the major cause of wear) which causes the tuning instability whilst retaining/enhancing the character and preferred tone of an original vintage plate with better spec materials. ( I realise that is subjective, but it is most common preference from our inputs). Hopefully, you have no real concerns re expected life. We are happy to stand behind our claims, kind regards |
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Post by cynical1 on Jul 3, 2013 8:09:20 GMT -5
Well, the stainless steel plate solves the problem of the baseplate wearing its way into the body. As I've said before, working to improve an existing design inside of a finite footprint is a challenge...which generally adds to the levels of complexity to solve the original design problems. I don't dislike the Wudtone unit, I just don't see it as anything more than what Leo would have done, if he had decided to spend the money and do it right.
To offer the competition fair time, The Bladerunner has taken the Leo footprint and come up with an idea that, IMHO, solves the friction\wear surface problem by removing it from the operation of the unit.
We could argue materials, tone blocks and saddles down to the minutia. To me, throwing money into a re-design of an existing system only takes you so far. Throwing out the old design and coming up with a new solution to improve functionality without adding to the complexity will always get my vote. Opinions vary.
OK, I'm through. I've said my piece, and I'm just going to wait for Greek to get his unit and listen to his impressions.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by 4real on Jul 3, 2013 14:27:23 GMT -5
OR... The two point system does away with the 'vintage' thing altogether adding only two very small knife edge, bevelled on two sides, hardened steel points of contact sunk well into the body (Via larger brass bushings) and height adjustable and easily able to 'float'... And this IS how players like Jeff Beck set up their trems for both up and down movement. This kind of set up is not for everybody, but such players like Beck and Henderson are mentioned and yet use such systems and set ups and are the standard used in modern strats. Obviously this would require modification to switch from the more traditional strat to a 6 screw 1950's vintage design...or designing the guitar to work that way in the first place. Not that you can't set up these variations on the traditional design to float by decreasing spring tension, but you don't have the additional adjustment of the height without shims and you have more friction with multiple screws and nowhere near as strong as a big solid 'post' of a two point bridge, and more points of contact compared to a knife edge on the curve of the posts. HOWEVER...even a tradtional trem Mexican strat can be SETUP to sound, sustain and play great with very simple things... Here's the great Carl Verheyen demoing just that and how to set it up to do this... In my opinion and experience, if you ahve the technique to handle it, such floating setups, when done right, will allow the loosened strings to go back and through the 'zero point and return if anything gets 'stuck' or need a little 'stretch' to settle back into tune. It also allows notes to float around a note, not just 'down' which is the thing about a trem like a bigsby. It's not necessary of course and both of these trems could work as floating and set up in this way I guess. But, as can be seen, a lot can be done with the traditional design and without fancy blocks and hinges and all that and work very effectively with attention to the setup. I don't hear a problem with 'sustain' in Jeff Beck or Carl's playing here on a stock mex-strat, tuning problems and the like. What I do see is a great attention to detail and technique and sound. I suspect that attention to this kind of detail will reap the rewards as much and likely more (as that is required anyway) than all this pursuit of 'sustain' and such through 'exotic' or 'special' blocks and hinges and the like...sure they may make a little difference and certainly a little to tone but who is to say what is advantageous or the 'right' sound or dare I say it 'tone' anyway. Both these and countless other variations are all worthy and one can experiement with the basic principles to modify or improve the standard trem as well, such as the idea I mentioned of floating the trem on ball bearings as I mentioned earlier (C)... ... As for the 'tuner measurement of sustain' this is flawed on many levels, everyone's tuner for a start has different sensitivites. A more true indication of what is happening, not just sustain either, would be simply plug into any standard good interface into a recording program and trying hard, or using a spring loaded pick as the JLD Bridge Dr did) and record the result. This will show accurately how long a note lasts and graphically against a previously recorded 'before' sample, but also show the 'shape' of the note and therfore some idea about the way the energy of the note disapates. Other tools like a spectrum analyser could show no doubt, the effects on the tonal shape and harmonic content through the life of the note as well.   Unfortunately it is not showing the whole life of the note and the peaks charts are off the graph so the details are not shown and this shows this low E string is louder and more responsive, but what of the other strings etc. But, if all that is really that important, this kind of thing seems the more important and accurate way of 'testing things'... I don't think you can look at 'sustain' as something separate from the other elements, there is only so much energy in the system and generally there are going to be compromises somewhere, perhaps the more physics and engineering minds here can think that through better than I, but as a method and to rule out confirmation bias and weigh up the pros and cons of what has been achieved I suspect that this is more to the point. While the JLD in this examplehas shown that the bass string is louder, is that because the resonance of the instrument has changed? Does a steel block last longer because there are less damping factors...in a system that is balancing on springs anyway, maybe, to what extent and how does it reflect in the harmonic content and evolution of the note? ... Anyway, all worthy 'products' but the original can work amazingly well and there is a reason that this contraption has been around and effective for so long. It does strike me as a little obsessional about the 'gear' with little attention paid to the setup and making the system work. I'm not buying quite the 'no need for locking tuners and special nuts' gambit that I ahve heard in some videos related to these things (Guitarworld supervee review for example) as, while there are ways to attach/lock the strings and such with conventional tuners, they are a hassle and nothing like as good as true modern locking tuners and hanging in the nut and tree's are a major cause for tuning instability with these things, not the bridge itself as a rule. In part I went 'flaoting' originally with cheap strats and standard tuners, to be able to pull the strings through the 'zero point' and any 'sticking' if required, but with a 'whole system approach' (locking tuners, LSR or graphite nut, low friction trem and most importantly, a good set up) I don't seem to ahve any problems at all. I'd encourage people who have not used the trem to the full extent, if they want to use it at all, to spend the time to set it up to be most effective for them and perhaps give it time and adjust technique to suit what it has to offer. |
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Post by andypwudtone on Jul 3, 2013 14:39:44 GMT -5
andypwudtone- You certainly are welcome here! So, Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2! His comments concerning "snake oil and feldergarb" And, your website does have a number of rather over-the-top testimonials, mostly anonymous. I would classify statements like "the best thing since Leo Fender" to be feldergarb, frankly. I say that not having the slightest doubt that the quotes in question are actual quotes. On a more philosophical level, I'm always amazed that there's never much controversy around here, until someone mentions either sustainers or vibrato ("tremolo") bridges. Then, all of the sudden, the floodgates open and controversy inevitably ensues. As someone who tightens all my vibrato bridges down tight and then throws the arm into the case, I'll confess to not understanding the passions involved . . . Thank you I enjoyed reading your response, you have made me feel very welcome, there are things I take away from it. Quickly to cover the topic of sumgai's comments as I'm sure it has had its air time. I understand the meaning of feldergarb as "nonsense, garbage, or rubbish" and also that the term snake oil is used as a reference to fraudulent goods. A person using those terms in reference to Wudtone "I can safely say it is all snake oil and feldergarb" is making a false statement that harms the reputation of Wudtone. That is why I think it is defamatory. re over-the-top testimonials. They are all received from customers, indeed the last customer from USA had this to say " Got the bridge plate yesterday and all I can say is WOW! The fit and finish are spectacular, my Callaham trem block fit perfectly as did my Raw Vintage saddles. Best of all, the tone is stellar and it really does work as advertised. I've had absolutely no tuning instability regardless of how hard it is used; it returns to pitch every time. Thanks for a great product and customer service. Regards,Scott Cramer, Manhattan Scott paid £46 plus delivery as all he needed was this, www.wudtone.com/shop/?wpsc-product=wudtone-cp-constant-pivot-bridge-plate as it is compatible with standard blocks saddles etc. I do take on board the quotes at the top of one of our web pages don't have sources adjacent to them, so I will deal with that . If you read down you will find the sources mentioned. I do think the testimonial with reference LEO has a risk we don't need to take for the USA market, so thank you for engaging my thoughts on that. re " someone stopping halfway through this thread might be left with a false impression, but you have ably defended your product and its features. If the suggestion you are making is that I should go back and censor someone's posting because you disagree with that person's opinion, well, that's not going to happen." No, I would be disappointed if you censored anything. re "On a more philosophical level, I'm always amazed that there's never much controversy around here, until someone mentions either sustainers or vibrato ("tremolo") bridges. Then, all of the sudden, the floodgates open and controversy inevitably ensues. As someone who tightens all my vibrato bridges down tight and then throws the arm into the case, I'll confess to not understanding the passions involved . . . " I enjoyed this very much. Good job we have trems to spice things up a bit. I find most folks with vintage style trems don't use them for all the reasons discussed. Indeed, I was you not that long ago. I once owned an early 50's strat, it was either decked or unplayable but it had good tone. In the hopeless search for a replacement, I ended up going back to the basics, sourcing real light ash etc, taking all the good stuff whilst adding an update to the finishing side and the flawed hardware. I didn't at the time realise just how satisfying it would be to create my own holy grail guitar, nor that it would become more than just a passion but here we are and thank you for listening. Got a wine waiting and a 2yr old who wants to beat me at Scalextric. kind regards. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2013 1:32:34 GMT -5
As for the 'tuner measurement of sustain' this is flawed on many levels, everyone's tuner for a start has different sensitivites. A more true indication of what is happening, not just sustain either, would be simply plug into any standard good interface into a recording program and trying hard, or using a spring loaded pick as the JLD Bridge Dr did) and record the result. I think we have been at this before, quite a while back, 1st, if you notice i am talking about same tuner, same guitar, same person, same room, same house, same day, same everything except the tremolo bridges. 2nd, The monitor, and the hardware especially in laptops can act as the ultimate hum-buzz source. Can you believe that i have managed to de-activate my digital caliper, (make it display crazy unstable results) just be approaching it to my laptop? Now, would you go this way to measure sustain for single coil equipped guitar? Also by using the computer, (especially in non-realtime OS's, and your windows is certainly not one) you introduce a whole lot of other factors as well, CPU load, memory swapping in and out, programs competing in the scheduler, etc... Using a specialized device like a digital tuner is MUCH more consistent and reliable way. Of course human ear is superior, this is what counts after all, but the digital tuner test just seems to never fail for me, it always is consistent with that the ear senses. |
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Post by sumgai on Jul 4, 2013 1:58:01 GMT -5
Andy, Normally I sit back on this forum, and just let it flow with as little hindrance as possible. Usually, I post when I see something that's either unsafe and likely to cause harm, or when I see that one's wallet is about to undergo a cashectomy. Sure, once in awhile I also engage others for a bit of humor, but by and large, I like to not interfere. You need to know that since we're not speaking face-to-face, it's hard to marshall my thoughts into coherence and pertinence vis-a-vis the topic at hand. I've rewritten this posting several times now, and I'm still banging my head against the wall as to how to tell you politely that I'm not gonna back down, nor retract my statements, and yet how can I say that without sounding like a smug, smarmy a__hole. Terrible dilemma, even if I weren't the Administrator here, let me tell ya. Long story short is this: I've been around the block, almost too often. I've seen this scenario play out so often that I could probably write a book about it. But I don't, and you wanna know why? Because it takes all kinds, that's why. What works for you and yet doesn't work for me, that's only a statistically improbable sampling. Taking it to the streets, so to speak, that's the only way to prove what works and what doesn't. But the rub there is, like newey and others have pointed out, and as you have somewhat agreed, MarketingSpeak has a way of interfering with common sense. So I've learned to accept that little fact of life, and that I can sleep with it in full operation, 24x7 - no longer phases me in the least. All I can do now is say "if 50 millions buyers like it, then it must be good enough.... for them." That won't make it right for me (providing it never was in the first place), but then again, I don't have to buy the products for all of the 50 million users, just like they don't have to buy for me the product that I like because I think it works best for me. Thank Gawd for that! I say, go forth and sell the thing. If you make a million euros, congratulations and my hat's off to you! But by the same token, please don't expect me to participate in promoting your product - put simply, I don't believe in it, and that's makes for the worst kind of salesman. Better to have a naysayer who's honest about it than a shill who's only in it for the money, and doesn't stick around to face the awkward questions when things don't go as expected. In closing, I need say only that everyone's opinion here is respected, regardless of differences in espoused viewpoints. Like the others who have mentioned it, I look forward to hearing from you, and others from Wudtone, regarding how to accomplish the various goals expressed by GuitarNutz. Engaging members in lively debates is one thing, but directly answering a question where one is well-qualified, that's the epitome of what we're all about - members helping members. Thanks for putting up with my randomly spastic utterances. HTH sumgai |
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Post by jojoguitar on Jul 4, 2013 2:54:41 GMT -5
friction\wear surface problem Even I can see how Wudtone have taken out the cause of wear and tear with the original one. I can't see why you keep coming back to it as a problem, when, all it probably/maybe involves is the replacement of six mounting screws beyond my lifetime. My opinion but there isn't a wear and tear problem. throwing out the old design and coming up with a new solution to improve functionality I don't dislike the Bladerunner, but I don't actually agree that throwing out all aspects of much loved design = improved solution. Unless you have hands /ears on experience, I doubt you will get to feel / hear the disadvantages. If you look at the video carefully you can see the pivot point is set further back. The radius of the arc is slightly shortened and also the angle at stable position more upright. This means that with the same degree of tilt, the saddles move further forward. This has the effect of reducing the sensitivity of operation. In use you also have to counteract the torsional strength of the piece of metal. So although it has great tuning stability it feels a lot less sensitive, relatively stiff. I know, guitarists like me, are very precious about the feel of everything about their guitars, necks, frets you name it bassists less so. Just my opinion. I've mentioned already the slack problem I experienced with the Bladerunner, I would have thought in the process of producing a new solution, if they had done their homework on the issues guitarists had with the original they would have engineered this problem out. As a guitar player I want as much sensitivity as possible to control the trem action. I certainly don't want slack in it. That is before you get to tone and as I've already explained. I didn't like the change in tone character which I attribute to the light alloys. So as I said very different beasts in their approach/feel in use/sound/ look" as well as cost etc. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2013 4:19:01 GMT -5
I've mentioned already the slack problem I experienced with the Bladerunner, I would have thought in the process of producing a new solution, if they had done their homework on the issues guitarists had with the original they would have engineered this problem out. As a guitar player I want as much sensitivity as possible to control the trem action. I certainly don't want slack in it. That is before you get to tone and as I've already explained. I didn't like the change in tone character which I attribute to the light alloys. So as I said very different beasts in their approach/feel in use/sound/ look" as well as cost etc. jojo if you go to the first page i had asked Cyn1 about this screw on the bottom of the super-vee block, and he replied here this is about controlling the floppiness of the trem arm. So i might think that the problem as homework has been dealt with. Now, I am indeed concerned about the weight of saddled/block (for which you assume it is alloy, but i have found no online indications for this, unless we can label as alloy any unknown material), as you have numerous times mentioned, but OTOH at least from reviews this combination seems to increase sustain for some reason. We all have heard about the neck-wood harmonics and how they can create dead-spots or even kill notes at specific frets, right? Maybe its a combination of block weight, wood weight, etc. I will have to find out if it works for me. There are many parameters out there. This specific guitar of mine, at times feel great, at times it feels less ballsy than my other strat. I just wanna give it some ... well ... "tone" at specific notes. I want it to sustain at the high frets. Lets see how it turns out. Maybe this guitar being assembled by me piece by piece, maybe has construct-related limitations. I bought the neck from China directly : a scalloped 21-fret mapple fretboard neck, yngwie style, for about 100 USD. I bought the body from USA for 120 USD, but i guess it was also cheap chinese alder body.Neck feels right. Fits like a glove. Of course it had no lacquer, fret work was bad, but the mechanical parts worked fine (double action truss rod), and it felt well built, and nicely shaped. Body feels a little light. This guitar is on the light side. It is extremely comfortable to play, and my hands never got soar from it. Can't claim the same for the ibanez LP copy with the wider neck. OTOH, we know of super-light american-ash strats that sustain like hell, right? So maybe more heavy does not mean always more sustain, its a huge combination of parameters. |
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Post by jojoguitar on Jul 4, 2013 5:51:44 GMT -5
I've mentioned already the slack problem I experienced with the Bladerunner, I would have thought in the process of producing a new solution, if they had done their homework on the issues guitarists had with the original they would have engineered this problem out. As a guitar player I want as much sensitivity as possible to control the trem action. I certainly don't want slack in it. That is before you get to tone and as I've already explained. I didn't like the change in tone character which I attribute to the light alloys. So as I said very different beasts in their approach/feel in use/sound/ look" as well as cost etc. jojo if you go to the first page i had asked Cyn1 about this screw on the bottom of the super-vee block, and he replied here this is about controlling the floppiness of the trem arm. So i might think that the problem as homework has been dealt with. Now, I am indeed concerned about the weight of saddled/block (for which you assume it is alloy, but i have found no online indications for this, unless we can label as alloy any unknown material), as you have numerous times mentioned, but OTOH at least from reviews this combination seems to increase sustain for some reason. We all have heard about the neck-wood harmonics and how they can create dead-spots or even kill notes at specific frets, right? Maybe its a combination of block weight, wood weight, etc. I will have to find out if it works for me. There are many parameters out there. This specific guitar of mine, at times feel great, at times it feels less ballsy than my other strat. I just wanna give it some ... well ... "tone" at specific notes. I want it to sustain at the high frets. Lets see how it turns out. Maybe this guitar being assembled by me piece by piece, maybe has construct-related limitations. I bought the neck from China directly : a scalloped 21-fret mapple fretboard neck, yngwie style, for about 100 USD. I bought the body from USA for 120 USD, but i guess it was also cheap chinese alder body.Neck feels right. Fits like a glove. Of course it had no lacquer, fret work was bad, but the mechanical parts worked fine (double action truss rod), and it felt well built, and nicely shaped. Body feels a little light. This guitar is on the light side. It is extremely comfortable to play, and my hands never got soar from it. Can't claim the same for the ibanez LP copy with the wider neck. OTOH, we know of super-light american-ash strats that sustain like hell, right? So maybe more heavy does not mean always more sustain, its a huge combination of parameters. Hi there, no worries, I saw what cyn1 had mentioned. Ironically this adjustment it is trying to deal with issues with the same flawed design approach (ie underneath ) as the old block design but with more a little more complexity. You take off the back plate of your guitar , take out a little grub screw and adjust a plastic screw ( be sure use the right size screwdriver as it is quite soft stuff), this tries to nip the end of the arm inserted to adjust the rotational stiffness. Screwed in it stiffens the rotation of the arm but it doesn't take all of the slack out you get using the trem, moving the arm up and down ( as opposed to rotating) . Adjusting the soft screw, back a bit the arm rotates easier ( it wouldn't do swinging arm though and neither does the Wudtone) ) and you have more slack in use. The problem is always going to be there because threads always have slack. The threads for the arm are at the top of the block ( like an original fender block) and there is nothing above the threads to support the arm ( unlike both Callaham blocks and Wudtone Blocks). The extent of the slack problem is going to depend on the amount of slack in the threads. Folks know from experience how the threads wear in steel blocks and there are some quite hefty forces involved if you are SRV like in your playing. Hard to say how quickly wear will make the slack worse with their lighter block material. Having experienced the difference in feel, sensitivity using a trem that has zero slack, I ain't going back. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2013 6:32:01 GMT -5
jojo, something starts to become fishy here. Sorry to say that, but I can't pretend as to what i feel reading you. You act and write far from the typical neutral 3rd party who has used a product and tries to offer an independent review. The arm slack is far from people's main problem with strat. Tell me one single serious trem user who likes their trem arm stiff and stable. Most have them hanging down. A stable trem arm stands there as an obstacle to the player. The trem has to be there only when you need it, not always. Only some ibanez players like it stable in some floating setting application, but it ain't the case with most strat players. Now, bashing super-vee for a supposed trem arm thread wear? come on.... How the hell do you know that their material is softer than yours (it is obvious that you work for wudtone) or callaham... Did you do any tests? Anyway here is that Super-vee claim for their blocks : So it seems that super-vee sustain-wise regards the brass block a downgrade from their own proprietary material "sustainium", and your so much praised +40 USD upgrade ultra super-duper steel block .... a downgrade from the brass one. It seems that my lexicographical analysis some posts ahead wasn't so far from the actual thing!  Same with the math analysis. There was no way on earth that more expensive would mean better quality, since they charge their shorty version +25 USD from the standard. And not only that, they go out and claim that their proprietary standard material is the best overall. So, i don't buy the "cheap alloy, lets face it they are cheap, etc..." in the slightest. Thanx man, you made me more confident for choosing super-vee!! |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2013 7:13:54 GMT -5
Confirmed, the material of the super-vee block *is* aluminum. They claim so on their facebook page. However, I haven't any doubts that it will sound great!
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Post by 4real on Jul 4, 2013 7:14:04 GMT -5
As for the 'tuner measurement of sustain' this is flawed on many levels, everyone's tuner for a start has different sensitivites. A more true indication of what is happening, not just sustain either, would be simply plug into any standard good interface into a recording program and trying hard, or using a spring loaded pick as the JLD Bridge Dr did) and record the result. I think we have been at this before, quite a while back, 1st, if you notice i am talking about same tuner, same guitar, same person, same room, same house, same day, same everything except the tremolo bridges. 2nd, The monitor, and the hardware especially in laptops can act as the ultimate hum-buzz source. Can you believe that i have managed to de-activate my digital caliper, (make it display crazy unstable results) just be approaching it to my laptop? Now, would you go this way to measure sustain for single coil equipped guitar? Also by using the computer, (especially in non-realtime OS's, and your windows is certainly not one) you introduce a whole lot of other factors as well, CPU load, memory swapping in and out, programs competing in the scheduler, etc... Using a specialized device like a digital tuner is MUCH more consistent and reliable way. Of course human ear is superior, this is what counts after all, but the digital tuner test just seems to never fail for me, it always is consistent with that the ear senses. Yes well, that does not make it right or that it is the best method...but since you ask about this suggestion... #1 applies regardless #2 single coil guitars are not unrecordable, switch the recorder on and move away if necessary. also...there are no zero latency recorders, this makes no difference because the recorded wave form will ultimately be true even if delayed in the recording of it. and...the human ear is highly subjective, not superior What I am proposing is that by recording the wave form, you can get a graphical representation of a note. This will be extremely accurate in time and show the whole waveform in great detail for analysis, not just of the sustain, but the harmonic content and 'shape' of the wave and changes made. Further, it can be recorded directly without sound and amps and effects and other things that could influence things. A clip can be captured, trimmed very accurately to the absolute length and on separate tracks to be shown side by side. You can run a spectrum analyser over it and see the changes in 'tone' and waveform, not just the length of a note, if the visual representation is not enough detail (you can zoom in after all). This is where the 'tone lives' especially in the shape of a note and a lot can be learned from that kind of thing. One could even capture a note from a guitar sound that you do like and hold it side by side with your own and literally see the difference. You can see the 'bloom' of an LP or the harmonic 'burst' of a tele and such experiments are not only instructive, but can aid in the kind of direction you perhaps would like to go in.  One major benefit is that it gives something for others to see and analyse as well, so aid in discussion. When you ask for direct comparisons with others as you have, one can do so with some added accuracy and take out factors like amps, effects and the 'ears' and the like and be meaningful in a discussion. The above video shows a lot of wave clips of mark knophler... ^^ As for the noise and such, sounds like other things going on perhaps, hard to tell. If the guitar is so sensitive to interferance, it is something perhaps to address down the line. Noise is important to me, but I have a laptop and formerly a big CRT monitor and yet still was able to record signle coild guitars and although most of my guitars these days are noiseless, most also have splits and such too that are single coil and yet, still quiet and able to be played within reach of the computer. It could be noise generated in a multi-effects box perhaps if that is close, I don't know your set up, but the caliper thing suggests that the computer will interfere with even simple digital electronics. For a true representation, one should go direct to the computer anyway, thus bypassing any 'effect' from having the effect as an interface. You can even add effects like distortion to the clean true form to see how it reacts with such things. When I ahve offered clips of guitars, I've tended to record without amps or acoustic sound and although extremely clean, it does give a true indication of how the guitar actually sounds, and for many years I was running a 386 without any audio interface into audacity, so it can be done. ... In other factors mentioned. There are all kinds of ways of making a traditional trem arm suit the player. Teflon tape in the trem arm threads is effective and a very old 'fix' while one can cut a little pencil eraser and insert it into the hole for the am to screw into which also works, if a tight fit, wont fall out. One can even add a screw into the block for adjustment if one wanted to along with perhaps a bit of nylon or similar (kitchen cutting boards make a nice plastic to rub against the arm for instance)... To get even more support and adjustment, one could thread a 'collar' or nut to the arm to screw down on the plate as well, all kinds of things are possible to have the arm as required. ... Most of my trems are khalers which are very different designs that offer a lot of options and solutions. When operated, the strings never change height as they roll on a separate bridge that is locked tight but adjustable in all directions (width, hieght and saddle placement, even alteration of the distances between different strings if you want). It avoids the spring cavity completly, just a very small cavity under the unit for the cam system and so leaving a lot of wood and strength in the guitar between the bridge and neck. Adjustments to the arm swing, spring tension and such are made through the top of the cam with a single allen key. The newer hybrid models can even be locked to a fixed bridge. The pivot is a very strong roller bearing with no play and easy action. The edges of the bridge are smooth and comfortable and damping and such on the bridge will not cause problems with tuning by pushing on the mechanisim. Everything where the brige saddles are, are rock solid and locked and will not move. They are quite heavy, but then they offer a lot of mass and transfer of energy into the body.  On my LP above, there was even room to find a thumb screw to lock it accurately with a few twists if required (say a string change or needing to tune down). There are a whole range of accessories one can do to mod the things if so inclined, different cam block materials and springs and saddles...even things like a post that goes inside if you want 'down only' so you can do things like dropped D and such. The strings top mount into claws, so not through the block. The fine tuners are accurate and useful even if not locking. Comes with a string lock if you like that will work with the existing nut (I use locking tuners myself). The qualitiy of plating and engineering is quite astonising, but that is reflected in the price of course. Ok, so not for everyone and I still like the modern fenders...however, there are more 'advanced' trems (or at least different designs than just a reworking of the vintage thing) that are worth considering if these things matter as much as these discussions seem to warrant... |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2013 7:43:43 GMT -5
Nice ideas and valid points 4real, I admit i have not taken the time to read it all. Maybe you could move your post to a sustain-dedicated thread?
PS
My God, Marko Knophler did get old! he seems like Jon Malkovic.
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Post by jojoguitar on Jul 4, 2013 8:54:28 GMT -5
your so much praised +40 USD upgrade ultra super-duper steel block . Don't take my word for this or fall out due to my choice of words to describe the lower cost alloy option. Google : Aluminium or rolled steel block, make your own mind up about that choice. I know that cold steel blocks are common upgrade that folks find makes the most difference, as far as sustain is concerned. Folks like the vintage vibe of the same material as in the original strats. I don't think Supervee would offer steel if it didn't. Google : trem arm slack and you'll plenty of info about trem arm slack, you might also find some teflon plumbers tape works as a fix but you have to keep replacing it. eg www.tdpri.com/forum/729614-post22.html |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2013 9:57:22 GMT -5
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Post by 4real on Jul 4, 2013 13:09:08 GMT -5
Google : trem arm slack and you'll plenty of info about trem arm slack, you might also find some teflon plumbers tape works as a fix but you have to keep replacing it. eg www.tdpri.com/forum/729614-post22.htmlLOL...yes, but you can't quote a guitar forum as fact, who breaks the arms off in strat blocks really, goodness gracious! I'v used aluminium in most of my guitars, even my latest project, there are so many variations of both materials... But throwing about costs and manufacturers mojo marketing speak and made up words like "sustainium" is as usual, so reveals the confirmation bias. Honestly, all these options and more will work and even where they sound different, will not necessarily sound bad, those aspects are just a matter of taste and choice and so 'subjective'. But, there is so much confirmation bias in these discussions that it is embarrassing her on this forum honestly. My trem block is better than your block is so childish too. Once someone has invested in something, the tendency is for them to convince themselves that it is the right and best thing, no one wants to find they 'bought a pup' and will defend it regardless as long as it funcions. People will hear it too, that is how mojo works...and why the scientific method was developed... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias www.spring.org.uk/2013/06/the-confirmation-bias-why-its-hard-to-change-your-mind.php |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2013 2:21:32 GMT -5
Without pretending to be a metallurgy expert here, not even an amateur, my knowledge is close to absent, it is astonishing how many pages i found around the web, but also in vivo experience (alloy wheels in cars being more expensive than standard steel-iron ones), suggesting that Aluminum is more expensive, equally strong, and lighter than steel (in short preferable). Aluminum can be as strong and stiff as the hardest steel (steel is just upgraded iron, of course pure aluminum is not so strong either, needs processing before it reaches the desired properties), for most practical applications. Problem is price. Cars made of aluminum are more expensive than cars made of steel. Marine vessels made of aluminum are more expensive than steel ones, etc...
Given that paradigm, i would go and claim that the aluminum block by super-vee has no reason to be less expensive than brass or steel. In these quantities material does not matter. Its no gold, or silver in the first place. What adds to the cost is the machining process.
So all the arguments of jojo regarding costs, but also regarding durability of the material, and wear rates (aluminum vs steel), for which he almost methodically didn't even once miss to append the word "cheap", can be safely thrown to the garbage can.
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Each of us is entitled to our opinions, and whether you view any expression of such opinions as well-founded or otherwise, they remain valid for the person expressing them, just as yours do for you. I'm sure you understand that factoid, but I wanted to get it out there for other readers of this topic, especially those have not yet registered as fully qualified Nutz. (Hint, hint. 
Same with the math analysis. There was no way on earth that more expensive would mean better quality, since they charge their shorty version +25 USD from the standard. And not only that, they go out and claim that their proprietary standard material is the best overall.