|
|
Post by 4real on Jun 24, 2013 13:42:59 GMT -5
Just a quick post. Thinking of installing a 'bridge doctor' into the guitar. I can see, particularly after the last string change, a slight 'belly lift' in the top. It's quite a big guitar top so not completely unexpected, and solid wood and lightly braced. Any opinions on this concept? I'm thiking if might lower the action a bit which of course has slightly lifted a touch and prevent it getting bad further down the line even if not needed yet and improved tuning stability when altering tunings, as the top might flex a little less perhaps. A promise of improved bass and sustain is nice as well. They are used in high end breedloves as standard...they work much like a 'violin post' to connect and brace the top to the sides and using leverage to pull the top back to 'flat' against the pull of the strings... Thoughts? www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Special_tools_for_Bridges/JLD_Bridge_Doctor.html?read=reviews#reviews |
|
|
|
Post by JohnH on Jun 24, 2013 17:03:48 GMT -5
An interesting device. I wonder why acoustics dont usually have such a sound post? If its main job is to pull the top down, then it must be in tension, hence the need to drill through to attach it, at the bridge and on the back? What do you make of the long horizontal stick? I expect that this type of gadget is the sort of thing that the inventive folk on Philip Island can redesign and improve on.
|
|
col
format tables
Posts: 474
Likes: 25
|
Post by col on Jun 24, 2013 18:24:16 GMT -5
Hi John,
I was wondering the same thing. The .pdf linked from the instructions tab (from the linked page above) explains that the 'long horizontal stick' is affected by an adjustment screw. Looking at the image (above) I assume that that the strings produce an anti-clockwise turning moment, but adjusting the screw will effectively lengthen the long stick to counteract the effects of the turning moment. The sound post is not in tension. The long stick is in compression.
|
|
|
|
Post by 4real on Jun 24, 2013 19:14:00 GMT -5
Well, generally good reviews, typically as repairing bellied tops. I does change the sound amke the thing louder. It activates the sides and back through the tail block which is pretty strong. You do need to drill for a screw in the back of the bridge. It's made of spruce an fairly small and light weight. Mixed feelings about it technically, but breedloves have a lighter braced top and have great sustain and 'piano like' sound which is nice and use these from new. I could use a little better bass volume too, especially with the lower tunings. But, if the top is already moving, and so the action rising now, that's not a good thing so feel like it might be worth 'the drilling' to keep it flat and stable. Yes, there is an adjustment screw and it is apparently important to 'tune' the tension. To take out a belly, if it is bad, takes a while to gently pull it back as well. The 'rod' is very light and prone to breaking, it might be the 'failsafe' feature they mention, the rod goes before the top. I imagine though that tuning stability would also improve, especially if the tension is being change and more midrange and sustain is a likely consequence...so will be interesting. I want this guitar to last a long time, so anything to keep it happy and safe. This guitar is likely a good candidate as it has a decents sized bridge and a slight curve around the soundhole to avoid collapse there, and generally light bracing. But it is a big wide soundboard so I suppose it is not unusual to see it starting to move as it settles. I will need to finish these elctric things first, and thinking of using the conductive foil trick too, to ground the strings before I add this thing into the guitar... www.jldguitar.net/richer/body.htmlAnyway...only about $25 from Stew-Mac for the permanent install version which I believe is preferable in many wyas. The single screw that mounts it is hidden by an inlay, so got some black dots, just in case I don't like the look of the pearl one they give you, I beleive breedlove do that and the mounting is invisible... |
|
|
|
Post by 4real on Jun 24, 2013 23:14:10 GMT -5
Hi John, I was wondering the same thing. The .pdf linked from the instructions tab (from the linked page above) explains that the 'long horizontal stick' is affected by an adjustment screw. Looking at the image (above) I assume that that the strings produce an anti-clockwise turning moment, but adjusting the screw will effectively lengthen the long stick to counteract the effects of the turning moment. The sound post is not in tension. The long stick is in compression. I don't think the 'vibration direction' has any bearing on things. The top will move due to the vibration of the string regardless and the vibrations will be complex. The device works as below...   www.jldguitar.net/warped_tops/fixtop.htmlIt's a kind of cantilever effect. So the back of the bridge is pulled down axis-ing just forward of the actual bridge which pulls up under the string presure. This is leavered into the tail block through the rod. Here is a pic of the tail block of my guitar I took when I had the strings off...   I need to replace the endpin jack with the stereo+switch version and wire the new pup and piezo to that and ground wire to the strings is probably advisable as this device will make things restrictive I'm sure. So, it is easy to see how it will flatten a top and so make the action consistent and help counteract the massive forces of the strings. How much adding this device to the bridge and to the end block affects the sound is interesting. I imagine that it might have an effect on highs, but I can see how sustain would increase and potentially the bass response by activating the sides and so the back and top through transferring vibrations to the tail and sides. It would be 'different' but not necessarily in any kind of negative way. As you can see, the seagull is lightly braced and it is quite a wide big guitar with sold sprusce and mahogany sides and back. You can see another seagull touch in the second picture, the light spruce bracings to the sides to make them stronger and resist cracking of the solid wood. I'm not entirely surprised that this lightly braced guitar might belly a little, and it is not a lot yet, but I do suspect that it might not stop there and have always been interested in the potential of such a device and it is inexpensive. I've seen a few install things on you tube, but I got to say, there are some people who approach things in a bit of a slipshod manner and have trouble following instructions. Had drilling is important, but one guy took that as to twist the drill bit in his fingers...bad. And, he drilled the smaller hole and then the larger one and not the other way around, plus the bridge had curved pins which made if very tight so was drilling into the edge of the bridge. Hmm, most reviews seem to be positive, but you never know if there are problems because of ineptitude. Some are honest about that, such as breaking the rod or cracking the bridge...due to over tightening to take out a big 'belly'. It can do that, but needs to be done over weeks of gently easing things back into place, not cranking the screw. There also appears to be a 'sweet spot' in all this. Generally 'flat top guitars' are not entirely flat and it might well be that mine has moved as much as it perhaps will, but still...I have a feeling there may be some sonic advatages, but in the least, provide some assurance against further deterioration of the condition and real damage over time and better deal with the different tuning things by stablising the top. Some might remember the large cedar posts I put into the last multituning guitar. That is a bit of a different principle and radically changed things. www.jldguitar.net/science_proven/graphs.htmlwww.jldguitar.net/louder/problems.html www.jldguitar.net/richer/body.htmlOf course, they would say that. Does it dampen down the dynamics and haronics, will have to be seen I guess. Breedlove's are great sounding guitars. A 'friend' Stu Clark is an endorsee and gets a great sound from his... He seems to get a very 'even' tone out of it, a nice warm midrange and 'smoother' harmonics perhaps....some comments there are interesting... If it gives my own guitar similar qualities would be a good thing, I have seen some positive things about the system used on seagull guitars that are fairly lightly braced like mine. But it is a 'commitment' isn't it, so people tend to say positive things when they start making fairly permanenet alterations. For me, the idea is largely to assure against any furthering of this slight belly up, restore the action without haveing to shave the bridge and keep it low and consistent, perhaps make the altered tunings more consistent (other strings tend to go out when you release the tension in others) and perhaps get some tonal and volume benefits. As you can see from teh comment above, the result will be to transfer vibrations to the body and after a similar thing with my archtop, you really do feel the vibrations through the body particularly. That was a differnt thing though, as those posts were to stop the top moving at all and on an achtop which exerts downwards pressure. The result was a dramatic decrease in acoustic volume, but far greater sustain "tone" and tuning stability. |
|
|
|
Post by JohnH on Jun 25, 2013 3:15:03 GMT -5
The side view diagrams are interesting. So the device is really applying twist to the top; rather than a pull, in order to bend it flat..makes some sense. Lots of patience needed over a couple of weeks to slowly wind that up! Wood reacts stiffly to quick changes of force, then adapts and relaxs over time
|
|
|
|
Post by 4real on Jun 25, 2013 5:00:05 GMT -5
Yes, with some of teh more 'disasterous stories' and damage, this is clearly and admittedly been the case, plus it won't work miricles I am sure. However, my guitar is only a slight, but noticable to me thing. Falt top guitars are never really flat, though mine was dead flat when new, this is probably normal 'settling'...however, while it is only slight, I'd like to address it now than when or if it gets bad and restore the action without modifying the bridge to compensate for the top.
It's a simple device with some failsafe to it which seems to be the 'rod' which is very light and read many break them, as opposed to a harwood dowel. The device is designed to self destruct before th guitar. Of course, with the strings off, likely my guitar will return to basically flat I suspect, it is largely the string pressure doing it. If so, it will likely be able to be adjusted ok with the strings off and stay that way when restrung, but will have to see how it goes.
So yes. The 'block' under the bridge is held on only at the back of the bridge with a small 1/8" machine screw. The front of the block sits just forward of the bridge saddles and creates a fulcrum against the force of teh strings pulling the guitar top up. This force is transferred through the rod acting as a leave to push the pressure of this 'lifting force' of the strings, through to the solid tail block and so some vibration directly to the sides and from there the top and back to some extent. The big thing that is not so obvious, it seems to be, is that this counter to the top takes the string strain out of the top and into the tailblock and so allowing the to to be more 'free. As they describe it also, more of the 'top' is in play from the more rigid bridge to the outer edges of the top.
There seems to be a lot of sense to this, but I have no doubt that such a thing could radically alter the acoustic nature of how the top works and the design and so the sound. Whether this is equivelent to "50 years of aging" is, well a hard claim to prove. Though, a mellowing out of instruments over time is typical and that something like that is posible I guess. I imagine that it could make quite a radical change in the resonance of the top with a blaock attached to the bridge and compressed against the back, even if light weight and the way they describe the changes would suggest to me that some of these things could be quite radical. nevertheless, I suspect it will not really be 'detrimental', of reviews that I ahve seen or heard, the result is at worst ambivilence, though the belly was removed. There have been some where damage did occur, but then the workmanship was a bit suspect, the guitar possibly not the best candidate and over enthusiastic 'cranking' of the adjustment was admitted.
But as I say, the 'belly' on mine is very slight, possibly a little hard to photograph even and could well disappear with the tension on the strings taken off. It was only really evident after raising the string guage to 12's over 11's but that is a typical acoustic set. There is no structural problem and only a slight rising in the action, which is the biggest give away of the change. The neck is still straight and built very solidly so it's not flex there.
I've been intrigued by this thing for some time and using this slight belly as an excuse I imagine to try it out, but I do think it could help prolong the life of the guitar and structural integrety. A belly does not need to lift much before hte downward pressure on the bridge is sinking the area around the sound hole which is inheritly weak, even with the 'seagull curve' designed to strengthen it.
It is 'removeable' and the only permanent alteration is a small hole to the rear of the bridge hidden under a discrete inlay, so, even if it was to be taken out, as long as the work is done well, it hardly 'damages' things.
It's an interesting device though nontheless in my view and for many guitars, could be the only way to deal with these kinds of things. Many 'saddle shaves' on theb ridge are cased by this natural deformation of the top and problematic action and often people look to the neck to try and adjust it out and prhaps shave the saddle, which is usual, but I suspect that movement will continue to occur and at some critical point, the forward part of teh top will be deflected 'down' sinking around the soundhole area. This device is unlikely to help with that if that should occur.
...
Meanwhile, the pickup mounting seems to be quite successful so wiring it in permanently should be fine and will do so, as soon as I find the time and nerve to have a go. It will take a week or so I imagine to get the 'Dr' anyway...
|
|
|
|
Post by 4real on Jun 25, 2013 5:42:39 GMT -5
I found a few more interesting photos on the camera card when last the strings were off that shows some of the features and iterior and why this guitar might be a reasonable candidate for this device.  Above is the neck join. There is a block for which a perfectly mated guitar neck and body are bolted seemlessly and glued together. The neck also ahs an extention the full length under the fretboard and the double action truss rod extends all the way to the fretboard. Just ahead of this is the brace that I have mounted the pickup to. This brace is very slightly curved, creating a stronger top to resist sinking around the soundhole area...  Another pic towards the tail. A bit rough under the bridge pins there I notice, so will clean that up a bit and ground the strings. Gives a bit of an idea of the nature of the bridge plate which unusually seems to be rosewood. The tail block is flat, I heard some have found guitars with curved blocks and the rod wants to slip to the side, possibly break. Also, the battery case is to the side of the block, some guitars have the battery through the block, so again, the kind of thing one would want.  A picture of the bridge again shows why it is a dcent enough candidate. A fairly large rosewood bridge with straigh pins and flat, so there would appear to be quite some real estate to locate the device behind the pins there and quite strong against the pressures. I'll need to account not just for the screw but the block it is mounting so as not to obstruct the pins. You'd seem to be wanting the front of the block to be just forward of the saddle, I assume not past the bridge so it is forcing into the top, though I imagine the whole bridge plate will move. Above too, you can see the forward brace int the sound hole and the truss rod ajustment. This is what the pickup is mounted to and about a 3/4" thick brace and slightly curved and strong. There is no obvious deformation of the top with the strings off so I don't suspect that there will be much problem adjusting to 'flat' as it's not really 'correcting' for anything much. |
|
|
|
Post by 4real on Jun 27, 2013 2:05:20 GMT -5
Not getting the time that I want and other stuff to do, but got a bit of time to make up the new stereo lead for this thing. I ahd some, what turns out to be high quality 4 core, shielded cable. So, the task to put a very good quality metal amphenol right angle plug on one end pairing the wires. This plug is really good. When soldering new parts, I sanded the chrome off a bit to get a good soldering bead (I heighly recomend this for pots and any parts other than bear wires and so avoiding cold joins or excessive heat), stripped wires and attached and the plug comes with a internal plastic shield to protect the wiring from any possibility of shorts. It is a very cool and strong design, the cap over the connections makes half the thread of the end piec that holds it all together, strong and insulated and a rubber strain relief insert. Recommend. I got the right angle as I don't want the thing sticking straight out of the guitar.  I then got a cheap but 'good enough' guitar lead and cut it in half making a join tothe paired cores, insulating them all with tape and making sure everything is strong...  I did not have 'shrink wrap' big enough for the join, but used a bit split over it and wound with black PVC tape and should be fairly sturdy.  Notice the cheap vice on a bit of wood, invaluable for holding things steady while soldering... The end result is a decennt length of good cable to a very good stereo plug into the guitar ending up in two tails of mono for each channel and pickup system on the other end. Many players use multiple cables as I was doing with the last project too, but this is a simpler neater solution. The guitar will work with a standard cable as well, but only the piezo will be on. If I pulled the plug half out, the passive mag pup should work on it's own. This solution is neat and does not require mods to the guitar other than the rewiring of a better endpin+switch. The nest stage will be to use foil and wire to ground the stirings. It sounds ok without, but if I am going to install the bridge Dr, it will be near impossible later, so will have to do that now. The ground will go to the jack along with the existing piezo and the mag system which has a plug on it so that is removable. Though the 'belly' in the top is only small and come up since going up a guage in strings, have tuned the thing down a tone and gone nearly flat and enjoying the rich tiones and losse feel of playing in D for a while and letting the top get used to be flat for a bit... |
|
|
|
Post by 4real on Jun 28, 2013 0:24:14 GMT -5
Got an hour or so today to do the rewire on this...  First things first, although now locking tuners, it is still safer to ease them right off with a capo to hold them in place and safely coiled to work on this, just remove the bridge pins.   I noticed in a previous photo that the was a bit of loose wood around the pin holes, so cleaned that up with some light emery paper. I then got some conductive aluminium adhesive shielding tape and stuck a long exposed wire to it with tape to ensure it wont pull out and makes lots of contact. I then carefully stuck the tape inside so all the pin holes are covered. I then use a bridge pin from the inside and push through the tape so the loose bits adhere inside and slightly cover the holes. When the strings are on, the ball ends (so will work even with coated strings) will make contact with the foil and so ground them all. |
|
|
|
Post by 4real on Jun 28, 2013 0:31:11 GMT -5
Ok, having done that and checking with a multimeter that all si well, as well as a test string...time to look inside and check it visually, the camera can be good for that too, just dropped down the sound hole with a small torch...  You can see the fiol is nice and neat there and the old plug in the back...time to take that out now...  The strap holder nut is a separate cap that hides the threads of the jack proper and the nut and washer holding it in the guitar. The thread is smaller than the main shaft on these. there is a handy hole that you can use to secure with an old guitar string so you can pull the new one through. Also, you can insert a small screw driver to hold the jack solid from turning while you do up the nut, then cover with the strap holding cap.  Above you see the new (forward) fishman 'switch jack' and the old one behind. You can use the old jack to work out the placement of the nut on the inside, ie the depth of the tail block so it will stick out the smae amount when changed over. |
|
|
|
Post by 4real on Jun 28, 2013 0:54:00 GMT -5
Ok, so here is the interior again with the new wiring fitted...  Below are two shots of how I used a mini phone to connect the mag pickup so it can be easily removed...   The fishman 'switch jack' has 4 connections. the usual stereo and gound plus a 'switch' which is separate again. Not quite sure how it is constructed inside. I did make one boo-boo...I wired it almost complete, but forgot to put the sleave on the wires, so ahd to take it off and do it again with the sleeve on the wires...doh! I use plack PVC tape to hold things together while working on things and even stick it to the guitar so thngs don't disappear down the hole or get forgotten. I also protect the top form the possibliity of stray solder going anywhere, there is no avoiding soldering over the guitar, but I tinned the jack connections away so it was not hard to re-melt and make a good connection with the various wires. An invaluable piece of equipment you can find at most bargain shops is that blue mat. This stuff is cheap and a nice bit piece like that protects the guitar and work area and is really grippy, so things done move while you work on them. An added benefit seems to be that parts stay put. But all care always, plenty of room, light and a good work surface is vital for guitar work. Plan through exactly what you are doing and the steps to do it and check everyting at least once as you go, don't assume you have it right. Test everythign before refitting things to the guitar. I do this even with electrics, wiring to a cardboard template and fitting everything at the end, only when it works through an amplifier. So...the wiring seems to be complete and yes, it does work in either passive mag with the plug pulled half out, or piezo alone (as standard before) with a normal lead and plugged in completely. You need the stereo lead to get both pups which I put together yesterday. It was important to do this before the "JLD Bridge Doctor" as with that in there, it will be virtually impossible to do the string ground and get to the end block and such for the jack wiring. I'm rather looking forward to trying out the JLD device the more I read about it, the more promise it holds. We will see of course. With the strings off, the top returns to perfectly flat and tuning to D for now to help let the guitar relax pending the JLD which is in the mail, probably another week or so... |
|
|
|
Post by 4real on Jul 3, 2013 6:13:43 GMT -5
I've been a bit preoccupied of late and waiting for the JLD Bridge Dr to arrive but got a little time today to plug the guitar in stereo mode to the computer interface on separate channels on the computer and mess about a little. Still tuned a step lower.
It seems to be working well, the Mag pickup is very acousticay and the piezo is a simple but good quality (I believe an L R Baggs design) and both are pretty quiet even in front of the laptop and speakers it is very quiet and seems to record well. Adding compression and different reverbs on each pup seems to work well.
The guitar already has quite a good sustain, if I can I will try and record a before and after of the mod and some demo's of the pickup systems and some experiments perhaps of the subtle variations one can do...time permitting.
Generally the electronics part seems to be quite a success. The pickup mounting wirks well, the mag pickup is nice and quiet, each system could be used separately and with or without the special split stereo lead and things seem to look good. Perhaps the B string is a little 'louder' but not too bad, could be my playing LOL. ;-)
I was at the Sunday market on the weekend and found these two small speaker stands, nice heavy bases and originally for a surround sound system I think, but seems to be an adjustable thing and I hope to adapt them for the eventual amplification system for the guitar...hmmm
|
|
|
|
Post by 4real on Jul 4, 2013 19:44:32 GMT -5
Ok...the JLD bridge Doctor or more correctly named in this instance...the JLD Acoustic Guitar Bridge System (US Pat #5,260,505  Here it is up agaist the bridge of the gutiar...first impressions... It is a very simple device. Increadibly light weight 'spruce'. The plastic mounting posthas three positions and looks like the further aft is the best both in terms of mounting and leaverage. The forward strut is apparently designed to give way befo0re the top will and is the fulcrum. I've read a lot of criticisims about he post being not strong enough and being broken, hoepfully that wont happen, it too looks like spruce but I think from some of the insall vids and such why people seem to ahve had troubles. There is a peral inlay dot, but I got a couple of black ones and might try that or make a toutoiseshell one both of which will be less conspicuouse. Got a new set of brad piont drills, I see that people have not been following the instructions or using such bits, although I ahve some I am sure, a good new sharp one is probably worth it for a few bucks. The idea is to hand drill the inlay first with a brad pint drill (that will leave a flat botton) and then, drill a hole through that all the way through for the screw. A 1/8" countersunk machine screw goes through the bridge into the plastic sleeve to hold it firmly at the back of the bridge and this screw in turn is covered by an inlay dot or similar. Other mistakes I ahve seen people do, though the instructions are fairly explicit, is that they don't use a hand drill...one guy on youtube took that to mean actually drilling the hole by twisting a drill bit in his fingers, sheesh...and yes, he ripped his fingers apart and made a hash of the hole. Anyway, as always going through all this in ones mind and anticipating problems is the name of the game. The unexpected possible problem is that it goes quite deep into the guitar and there is a potential that it might even hit a back brace in mine, so we will ahve to see, if so it might need to be shortened a little, so we will see on that count. It will be an interesting 'experiement' in the very least, but I am hopefull for some positive results sound wise, and at the very least prtection from further bellying. With the strings off it is pretty much flat, so will adjust pretty much to that I think. I've had the guitar tuned a step down (D) for the last week or so to relax things. People who have damaged their guitars seem to and some even admit that they "cranked" the adjustment to take out a lot of belly by brute force. One thing I noticed is that as it takes out the curve, the strut needs to be eased down the tail block so running parrallel, if not and just 'cranked' as they say, this goes out of alighnment and may break...better that than the guitar. Although, I ahve heard of some that have even cracked the bridge by such measures. For a big fault, the thing is supposed to be adjusted slowly over months. Pros too, have goe so far as to hydrate the guitar and weigh it down with a heavy book and relax the top back to being flat. I don't think that once the strings are off, I will need any pressure at all, the pressure being added when the strings are on. I am led to believe also that they need to be adjusted to find the 'sweet spot', much like a violin sound post, though I am not sure quite what that might be a and a bit hard with the strings on I would think. So, will aim for relatively falt and great action and see how it goes from there, ease it off if necessary... |
|
|
|
Post by JohnH on Jul 4, 2013 21:15:29 GMT -5
Seems like a finely judged piece of kit.
When you install it, I assume the guitar will be unstrung and so unstressed and flat. Do you then wind a bit of force into ths brace?, or maybe later when its strung? Or do you just let it find its own state of stress? In some ways this is much like some prestressed building structures that ive come across
|
|
|
|
Post by 4real on Jul 4, 2013 21:58:27 GMT -5
Here is a before and after clip...but it is just strumming and hard to tell the difference, cant say it is particularly detrimental...
oh, a part two that proceeds to shave the saddle anyway...in the end it plays well and is louder...
This install ignores the hand drilling instructions and little attention to meauring and depthe and all that that will make the inlay better. I think one could countersink that hole a lot better too, with an appropriate sixed drill bit after the brad point rather than attack it with a giant countersink bit and an electrick drill. It did take the belly down, but his verdict of 'hit and miss' is a bit harsh, there is no intention to take out a sunken top. When the action gets high, the neck fingerboard extension will often try and nose dive into the guitar and the wekk sound hole area, along with the tension forward into it from a bellied bridge area, is the normal result. There is plenty of room though to shave the saddle down, perhaps 'ramp' the string pegs and get a decent action on it and the likelihood of halting the sunken top before it gets too bad and requires a neck set or similar...
The next one, the guy attacks the guitar with a flick knife, then proceeds to electric dril, even though specifically by hand. He fails to see that the thing has setting and the plastic insert sticks up so you can select the appropriate place, by putting the post between the pegs...it is going to cover the holes and string seating...and all through is the TV going "and the governement is getting too big for it's britches"! The thing here is that he has significantly lost power by using a hole between the pegs with twice the tension of a six string. If He moved the collar he would have significantly added leverage and been able to use the first hole he drilled and not interfere with the string pegs, most likely. As he said, I don't know how it work and not following the instructions...hmmm...
Needless to say, such videos are instructive as to what not too do as much as what problems to anticipate. I'll be measureing the location of the hole, using a hand drill as specified and measuring the depth quite a few times I suspect. Maximising leverage and with a guitar like that, would ahve prepared it as I've been doing by taking the tension out of the top and getting it fairly flat without the strings on. Again, the action is huge and that will be putting pressure on the fretboard into the tp, but there seems to be a fair amount of saddle there to take down to help that considerably. Neither of these problems is the 'Dr' intended to fix.
The above clip shows a more professional install using the no-mod but a lot more expensive and not always suitable brass string through version.
My concern is to avoid ever to have to face such problems by usign teh device to keep it flat from the start.
I'm also hoping to ensure consistency of action and tuning with altered tuning tensions and such.
|
|
|
|
Post by 4real on Jul 4, 2013 22:05:45 GMT -5
Seems like a finely judged piece of kit. When you install it, I assume the guitar will be unstrung and so unstressed and flat. Do you then wind a bit of force into ths brace?, or maybe later when its strung? Or do you just let it find its own state of stress? In some ways this is much like some prestressed building structures that ive come across Yes...as it is a new guitar, there is only a slight curve, it could be fixed with a bridge shave, but interested in this as it will prevent anything in the future happening, I hope...and the breedloves sound good. The guitar is very lightly braced and the 12's I have on it altered things and is the maximum recomended. So, unstring and should go flat, especilally after being a bit relaxed. So a light pressure should suffice, the string pressure should add a bit though. I suspect on mine, it will be fine, will see what the action is like, if a little low might release some tension, but the idea of it is to release some of the top tension to allow the top to move more freely, hence the claim for extra volume, as well as directly vibrating the sides and top through them and the back. With care, it probably wont show that it is in there, well that is the intention, and at worse, I take the system out....have other work to do and got to be in the mood I am sure...should nly take an hour I guess, if that... I was wondering if I should try and record something as a before and after kind of things too...will think about that... |
|
|
|
Post by 4real on Jul 5, 2013 3:24:21 GMT -5
Ok, so I finally got the nerve and a little time before the weekend to ahve a go at the install of the JLD...  First, measure: once, twice...three times..ok 4 to be sure, mark on the tape and make a mark...  As per instructions, use a hand drill...this one I've had for years and is a really useful tool to have and what is required for this kind of work. I bought a new 'brad point' bit, it was cheaper to by a set at about $7in town. These will not wander and give a good straight edged hole. I need to drill to the depth of the screw and the inlay with a countersink to it.  The kit comes with one 1/4" pearl inlay dot, however, that's a bit conspicuous and I live in a metric country. As an option, I got a couple of black dots in the order for a few cents extra that happened to be 6mm...so a little smaller than 1/4" and used a 6mm bit. To make the screw head fit then, I ground the edges off to 6mm, this will make the head stronger anyway and is only a tiny amount.... |
|
|
|
Post by 4real on Jul 5, 2013 3:28:06 GMT -5
Ok...so the screw is a countersunk type and the brad point drill bit will be flat on the bottom, so used a normal bit to make the countersink required...  Giving me a nice edged hole, with a countersink and a whole all the way through to the screw thread...  With the screw in place and the black dot on top it looks about right...  |
|
|
|
Post by 4real on Jul 5, 2013 3:35:11 GMT -5
Ok, so can attach the block. I measured in side to ensure that it would fit on the bridge plate and clear the pegs and such and as you can see, just clears the back brace that is under it so needed no modification, so close. Lucky I ground the strings before doing this!  Putting the rod through (I found it to slide ok once the device was loosened a bit, so lucky I did not do the inlay bit yet...you put the piointy end through and mark it, then cut it off 3/4" shorter (for the grub screw)...installed the pointy end goes against the the grub screw and this cut end, the tail block. Notice, the use of a small vice, always handy...  Another view of the block installed without the rod or grub screw...again, clears the back brace and seems pretty straight...  |
|
|
|
Post by 4real on Jul 5, 2013 3:40:53 GMT -5
Ok, so as best I could take the picture...the rod seems to be slightly off centre, but not too bad and seems secure, very hard to see in there and I cant reach the block with my hand to tell...shoulod ahve studied the picture a bit better perhaps...  Here is a shot of the 'belly' with the string off. Now, a bit of a curve is normal and ok, and on a big guitar like this, this is not as bad as it seems, but clearly not 'flat'...  When the device was screwed down really tight, the inlay sat down a bit more than I'd expected...hmmm...pressure!  |
|
|
|
Post by 4real on Jul 5, 2013 5:26:58 GMT -5
However, I had a third option for the inlay. While at the shops I also spied a cheap punch set that had a 6mm punch in it so I was able to make a perfect 3mm tortoiseshell circle. This material features in one way or another on every guitarof mine, all cut from teh same sheet...and on top of the black dot...fits flush...cool...  The lighting here is a bit harsh, but on the finished guitar, the 'dot' is practically invisible and if noticed, matches the pickguard material...I think this kind of invisible install is better than the pearl dot option myself (though, this would match the fretboard markers)  ... SO, just restrung the guitar and back up to pitch. I adjusted the top to be flat and under full tension, has remained so...so that definitely works for that aspect of the device. As for the 'tone'...well it has definitely 'changed' subtly. It is a bit louder for sure and perhaps 'mellowed' with improved bass response but not at all boomy. In fact, it has given the gutiar an extra 'clarity' and note separation. Ind of piano like or something. It's not a drastic thing, but you definitiely feel the vibrations in the sides particularly, and in the back a bit and feeling the top vibrating, it does feel perhaps a bit different too, perhaps being driven by the sides a bit. There is a bit more sustain as well and will be interesting to hear how it sounds with newer strings. Perhaps it has taken a bit of the dynamics out of the guitar, a bit more 'compressed' but in a nice way as one might find in a recording to make things more even. As a bit of an experiement, I tuned the low E down to D and the bass string felt and sounded strong, so wound it down further to C and still good. In fact, because the top does not move under changes in string tension, therest of the guitar remained stable in tunign as did the action, previously you would notice a bit of slop and 'slap' in the loose bass string, but it remains strong now and with that same pianistic clarity...so wound down to B and yse, still good...hmm...now that's a nice and interesting side effect! This guitar has a little shored scale than usual, more like a gibson, so one might expect problem there. Higher up the neck, you still get that lovely sustain and clarity on all strings as well... Overall then, pretty pleased with it so far. It is not a drastic thing as some have suggested it might. Really, it is acting like a truss rod for the bridge and taking the stress out of the top. I feel more confident that the guitaris going to stay put and the sound is genuinly 'better' and certainly a touch louder and subtly more sustain in all registers. It ahs 'mellowed' from it's new guitar, not sure if that is the 50 years of aging suggested in teh marketing, but there is something of that as well perhaps. All these qualities are the kind of thing that breedlove guitars are known for, and this is not necessarily to everyone's taste, though undoubtedly great gutiars. You have to spend quite a bit more than this guitar to get a solid wood breedlove with this system in it though. Here is an example of the 'breedlove sound'...a lottle more note clarity and punch plus sustain...well, for an acoustic... |
|
|
|
Post by 4real on Jul 5, 2013 8:58:42 GMT -5
ok...so strap button then...Seagull seem to be very specific about that and ahve this PDF diagram... www.seagullguitars.com/strap%20pin%20installation.pdf I had actually been considering mounting it to the side of the heel and can see how that would be near impossible to fall out and perhaps a possibility though there is not that much room...it is an unusual neck joint. The make the guitar's bodies and necks and themn mate them with a sander machine that perfectly matches the joint. It is glued and bolted as youcan see. Not sure what the dowles are for, these are covered at the bottom along with the end grain by a rosewood cap...shame, seemed like another obvious place to mount the thing... any thoughts? |
|
|
|
Post by JohnH on Jul 5, 2013 16:04:34 GMT -5
A very nice series of posts, so thanks for posting them.
Actually, maybe the process of recording and describing each stage so carefully imparts a level of due care and attention which in my case, might suppress an the urge to attack it wantonly late one night with an angle grinder and an electric drill?
|
|
|
|
Post by 4real on Jul 5, 2013 16:50:53 GMT -5
A very nice series of posts, so thanks for posting them. Actually, maybe the process of recording and describing each stage so carefully imparts a level of due care and attention which in my case, might suppress an the urge to attack it wantonly late one night with an angle grinder and an electric drill? Thanks...this is fact the case John. If I know someone will know, or even that I will hve to live with it...it makes me take more care...and yet, it is no small thing to drill into or modify something like this, at least for me. Olus, all the instructions and advice seemed to be all over the place and discovered that some should simply not be doing DIY, and from some of those vids...not be doing pro guitar repairs...on the other had, i'd never make money at this kind of thing as perhaps I take more care than is necessary. I've made enough mistakes to know what 'can' happen...these are the kinds of things that one should do to avoid them and avoid the kinds of common mistakes that are seen way too often. Plus, there are very few documentations of this kind of thing and a lot of mojo and 'opinion'. To be fair, it is alittle 'anti-intuitive' that attaching something so simple to the bridge might radically change the guitars sound or stifle it. Now that I can see and hear it for myself, I ahve to say it really does impress and completely removed and will prevent any top bulging. For a suitable guitar, for $25 this really is a steal! And, it makes one wonder about guitar design too, beedlove base their whole design around it, making the tops even light given that the top is not under so much direct stress. |
|
|
|
Post by 4real on Jul 9, 2013 2:46:32 GMT -5
Ok, got a little time to do a 'little' chore after much deliberation and looking around. Glad I did because the neck is 'bolted on' and even has dowels in the heal and have a recomended placement. I saw all mannor of decent and not decent attempts on these guitars.  In the end i played it safe and seems to work ok. Using eh recomeneded place, I drilled at an angle so the buttong fits to the heal angle and used a thin layer of rubber beneath the button to conform to the variance of curve as it was in danger of spliting. The result seems to work ok and be strong enough. The button came from stew-mac and affordable and made of 'snakewood' and essentially 'black'. On a new cheap strap, modified with a bigger hole for the jack plug end, it seems pretty safe and not get in teh way. Adding such a thing seemed to be a bit of a shame to do, but then, it is kind of necessaary I beleive and ahve been thinking for a while I should try playing standing as good posture is important and have not yet found a good seat....hmmm I imagine I will be tempted towards perhaps a leather strap...anythoughts on straps?   |
|
|
|
Post by 4real on Jul 9, 2013 21:01:18 GMT -5
Ok, played a short quick test demo of the guitar's pickup system, added a touch of reverb to each...here is a screen shot, the first track is the piezo, the second the mag...the lower wave is the combined signal. There was a bit of a snip in the middle to take out a bad hesitation as I wondered where this tune was going. Fans of the maj-min thread will hear hear the minIV effect. F(sus2)-Fmin-Dadd2/F#-G-E7/G#-Am-AmG-F-Gsus4,G-C ...I used a capo on the third fret.  The resulting sound can be heard here... Seagull Test Tune 01As you can see, little if any noise and hiss from the guitar. The wave forms are interesting, the lower track 2 is the mag pickup and you can see less 'trransients' (spickes) and sensitive to the strings vibration for a lot longer and smoother than the piezo wave shown above. The resulting combination keeps the spiky harmonics and the smoother fuller mag signal. Perhaps a little less 'quack' than the piezio alone. The mag sounds suitably 'acoustic' and not like a 'strat' at all really. This was recorded the morning, so after the JLD was installed, don't ahve a before or after unfortunately, the guitar was tuned down a tone anyway so not a fair comparision as the guitar reacts quite differently in slacker tunings like that. Personally I am finding standard pitch to be a bit too tight thiese days, might tune down all the time, hmm... I think you can hear the difference between the mag and piezo though they are mixed to the centre... I'm considering future amplification solutions...something like this is only about $200...includes effects (mostly time based), compressors, phatom powered mic inputs and good EQ's with the potential to add quite a few extra channels and direct USB interface should I choose too for recording. Using this, one could run powered monitors or speakers to form a compact PA www.behringer.com/EN/Products/QX1202USB.aspxI have a pair of 40watt powered studio monitors that I could put on these stands I got to make a very small PA effectively I imagine and give a very true sound. For extra 'effects' I can run them from the mag or either or in the mixer's effects loop should I choose to get into that side of things and make more of the stereo capabilities... |
|
|
|
Post by JohnH on Jul 10, 2013 6:55:52 GMT -5
That sounds very nice Pete.In fact, through my old computer speakers (which I like), it sounded just like you were sitting behind the monitor.
Id be interested to hear fully split left piezo right mag mix too sometime, just to know the difference. Did you find the balance of strings and sound levels works out ok?
|
|
|
|
Post by 4real on Jul 10, 2013 13:16:13 GMT -5
That sounds very nice Pete.In fact, through my old computer speakers (which I like), it sounded just like you were sitting behind the monitor. Id be interested to hear fully split left piezo right mag mix too sometime, just to know the difference. Did you find the balance of strings and sound levels works out ok? Thanks John... soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=12403988The above clip was mixed piezo hard left, mag hard right and I animated the lanes at several points to drop out one of the other. And interesting thing is in that last chord, the mag sustains a lot more so I dropped it out to reveal what you are hearing from the piezo which is not a lot on the trailing of the chord...the mag is sensitive to any vibration while the mag is not 'hearing' all those lower vibrations so well and not for as long. I know it seems 'subtle' but, live the guitar does not drop out on low notes quite like the piezo suggests, or so it seems, after all the strings are vibration as the mag is picking up the signal, just hardly vibrating the piezos. So for quiet passages and sustained note it is going to be more sensitive. The piezo gives the character a little more but the mag has a bit of that 'acoustic quality' and no quack. The way this is set up with the stereo feed, one could use the guitar with a fault in the battery or lead, you can inset the lead fully for piezo or half out for mag only. Of course one could add effects to one side only and combine the two. The EQ was completely flat on both channels and recordings. There is nothing drastic in the string to string response without modding the pup. The pup is set a fair way from the strings which might help...7mm~1/4" As you can hear both the standard Q1 piezo system and the mag are exceptionally quiet...it was recorded 2' from my laptop under compact fluro for instance with no interference at all. The fender noiseless is the older 'classic' (not the hot JB style in my strat)though probably a bridge pickup, it perfectly matches the string spread. I am using 12-54 phospher bronze strings, not new here but still good...lacks the sparkle. The higher end seagulls offer a Q2 system, the same thing plus an internal mic. I don't have enough inputs to the recorder (stereo) but one could add a nice mic in front of the guitar for a third source and more complex sound perhaps. Generally I've avoided things that will translate handling noise and tapping on the guitar top and such. The piezo system pretty much only transmits the vibrations from teh bridge, even hitting it does not produce a huge 'thump'...perhaps not what those percussive guitarists want but there you go. And yes, thanks for that, I am looking for a very intimate sound there, something real and 'close'...the reverb is very light and slightly different on each system (might account for more depth of sound, without loosing that up-close-ness). The basic point of all this is to try and get a good and 'real' sound of the guitar, as if the audience were sitting right in front of the guitar acoustically, but at a suitable volume. I think there is potential though to radically EQ or effect one channel over the other if one wanted to...similar to the ideas on the last guitar. Recording both of course allows one to play with the mix too on recordings with the one take. I've yet to do much at all in this direction. Amplifying it effectively is going to be a task though and I guess the next stage of all this. At home, the little studio monitors or even the compact hi-fi system that monitors the computer generally are loud enough, but not an easy to transport or system I'd want to 'travel' with. I found some neat solid little speaker stands, originonally from a home surround sound system but could hold a bit larger speakers with a bit of modification I suspect. A mixer would be required I guess and if extra channels would allow playing with others or vocals down the track. I could use two guitar amps, but a bit much to lug around or even use at home, hmmm. They tend to sound a bit boxy too, lacking the high frequency. Perhaps I could use a surround sound system, I got one somewhere that the DVD player in it no longer works in...hmmm...small speakers but a quite big powered bass box. I wonder! I suspect that at leat practicing with the amplified system would bring all those squeaks and such into sharp relief that acoustically, one tends to not worry about too much. |
|
|
|
Post by 4real on Jul 24, 2013 3:38:27 GMT -5
The next phase is how to effectively amplify this thing!! My Fender hotrod tube amp (40watts) is still requiring a repair but thought perhaps of usign that and some kind of PA like arrangment for he high end, perhaps some kind of super small PA like thing or similar. Behringer has a very small PA with 5 channel mixer and effects plus feedback suppression for about $450 called an EPA150...so 75watts per channel...very small speakers, but perhaps combined with a warm tube amp handling the low end and such it might be an interest combination and lot of 'spread'... www.zzounds.com/item--BEHEPA150 with something like this one could add a condenser mic and even have room for vocals and MP3 inputs and the like...the speakers are very small and will fit to mic stands which would be a cool way to do it and combined with a guitar amp as well, might give it quite a bit of 'depth' and capable for small rooms and home which is as much as I am likely to ever do I imagine... Otherwise, could one do something DIY or perhaps 'hack' a surround system to make somehting 'compact' and portable...at least for the high end side of things of the acoustic guitar. I would like to mess with the idea of stereo effects side of thing as I ahve so many effects boxes and such and don't use them and can add colour. The idea to use the effects on the Mag channel say with light reverb from mixer/PA for the acoustic side. I could use perhaps a small digital multieffects thing say for things like chorus and delays and socu, I have one that has a nice 'sitar simulator' which is actually extremely good and has most things, even a phrase sampler, very basic wammy and such effects. I imagine one could use that to program in some doubling effects say to create 12string like sounds and such for a different sound on different passages, keeping the acoustic sound at the fore front. Anyway, as always on a budget but looking for compact and reliable and no noise and less hassle...so suggestions welcome as I try and contemplate the options... ... Meanwhile, the guitar has 'settled in' a bit after the JLD mods which was a prediction and seems to have improved a bit, or I am getting used to it. It remains 'flat' under standard tuning and still sounds good. I will have a go next string change to o adjust things a bit as it has been suggested there is a 'sweet spot' with this device and I suspect it may well be true. It is a little off centre and think that I can lossen it, straighten it and perhaps let a little 'curve' back and see if it changes much... |
|
