'Tone Monster' problem with a SS pickup config

[zjokka]

here's my current project problem

Just bought a cheap 3/4 scale Morris electric guitar. It's got the following features: -2 single coil pickups -2 individual DPST switches to turn the pickups on -2 pots for volume and tone. My plan was to introduce both series wiring and out of phase and I found the diagram to to this economically, that is by replacing the original switches with one DPDT on-on-on and one DPDT on-off-on (mini toggle switches). The latter are readily available and I've got them, but as I learned from this forum the on-on-on switch is hard to find. And it is... certainly over here in Europe.

As the mini toggle I already have feature a center OFF position, I thought it would be better to use them for turning pickups on or off. I could then have the mini toggle for the bridge pickup select "in phase - off - out of phase" and the neck pickup "parallel - off - series". But cannot tell if and how this is possible. Of course, if this is possible, the original SPDT switches lose their function. Could I assign them a new functions.

Would it be better to wire it like this?
a) minitoggles (DPDT)
1- Neck ON - Neck OFF - Neck out of phase
2- Bridge ON - Bridge OFF - Bridge out of phase

b) the original switches (DPST)
1- Neck parallel - Neck series
2-Bridge parallel - Bridge series

Maybe N pu in series with B pu sounds exactly the same as the other way around? That I don't know..
But certainly Neck out of phase with bridge sounds different than Bridge out of phase with Neck

I really don't care how many mini toggles I have to add, but I would like to keep 'm to the mimimum required. I cannot fit a Fender type 3- or 5- way as the body cavity is really shallow.

Any advice would be welcome.
thanks for reading this.
Johan

[UnklMickey]

zjokka said:

...But certainly Neck out of phase with bridge sounds different than Bridge out of phase with Neck...

hi Johan,

actually they don't sound different!

with 2 SCs you can't have one pickup in series and the other in parallel.

with 2 SCs you have exactly 6 unique choices:

• coil a only
  
• coil b only
  
• both in parallel, in phase
  
• both in parallel, out of phase
  
• both in series, in phase
  
• both in series, out of phase
  

it doesn't really matter which coil you change the polarity on when you go out of phase, (of course not both, but you knew that) and in series, it doesn't matter which coil is on the "top".

if you're having trouble finding the switches you need, here's a thought on another possible option: a six-position rotary switch with at least 3 poles should be able to get you all these combinations. i'm not certain about this, it might actually take 4 poles.

JohnH might already have this drawn out. check through his previous posts and links to drawings.

that is unless you have an aversion to rotary switches.


U.M.

[zjokka]

Thanks UM,

Actually I do have a rotary 6 pole switch but there is no way this is going to fit in this guitar. I don't know if anybody already tried that, but having to dial through the six positions is not really handy if you want to 'go series' for the solo or someting.

Is it really not possible to have these six sounds with two DPDT on-off-on switches? It would be then:
minitoggle 1: neck on (or parallel)- neck off - neck series with rest
minitoggle 2: bridge on (or parallel) - bridge off - bridge out of phase

Or is it again not so simple - I think if there's a problem it will be getting sound form the bridge pu
I found replacements for the stock DPST switches and also found time to take a pic or two:




will start by rereading the tone monster page on gn

Johan

[JohnH]

Is it really not possible to have these six sounds with two DPDT on-off-on switches? It would be then:
minitoggle 1: neck on (or parallel)- neck off - neck series with rest
minitoggle 2: bridge on (or parallel) - bridge off - bridge out of phase

That is a nice arrngement, but my belief is that it will not prove toi be possible with those switches - not enough poles available on a DPDT. I havent thought it all through, so if someone wants to have a go, dont let that stop you!

The fallback, is four simple two-position DPDT's one each for on/off on each pup, a phase switch and a series parallel.

John

[UnklMickey]

from the photo it looks like those slide switches are dpdt on-on types. if thats the case, two more of those, or two dpdt on-on mini-toggles would give you the 4 dpdt two-position switches that JohnH just spoke of.

would that be something that you could work with?


U.M.

[zjokka]

thanks UM, I do

I'm reading deeper into my back catalog of prints from various sites and I'm starting to freak on these switches. How do I tell the whether my slide switches are DPDT? Aren't all switches with 6 terminals at the back double pole? I suppose you mean to say that it might be a DPDT on-off switch. But why would the top terminals be needed if never connected.

Now I'm beginning to be confused about what 'throw' refers to. Are the on-on-on minitoggles 3T or 2T?

And something which puzzled me about this particular guitar is why the negative leads from the pickups were connected to the switch screws. Unproper grounding for sure, but does this reveal something about the nature of the switch.

This is my second guitar with individual pickup switches, I also scored a strat copy from Burns with individual pickup switches. I thought it would be easier to start from the individual switches to adapt the wiring.

Hope I've the time to pass by the electronics shop (again) tonight, those two extra minitoggle seem the way to go.

Johan

[UnklMickey]

guitar and other assemblers often use switches that have more capabilities than they need. for one reason it's usually cheaper to buy and stock 10,000 dpdt switches, than 5,000 spst, 4,500 dpst, and 500 dpdt.

pole refer to the number of "movable contacts" there are. throws refers to the number of fixed contacts per pole.

after that it the descriptions become a bit "wobbly" (stole that term from Runewalker).

• a dpst switch is in it's common configuration on-off. two simple switches ganged together both turning on when the switch is moved in one direction, both off when moved in the other
  
• a dpdt switch is referred to as on-on when it has only two positions, because in on position a pole makes contact with one throw, and in the other position it makes contact with the other throw.
  
• when a switch has a center position, things get even more complicated because it could be
  • on-off-on -- pole contacts nothing in center position
    
  • on-on-on -- pole contacts both throws in center
    
  • on-off-(on) - same as on-off-on except right side is spring return momentary contact
    
  • it goes on from here, but i think my A.D.D. just kicked in so i'll stop
    

the mini-toggle on-on-on switches are DT (2T)

but check with JohnH about whether they need to be dpdt or 3pdt for the series/parallel switch.

good luck!

U.M

[JohnH]

but check with JohnH about whether they need to be dpdt or 3pdt for the series/parallel switch.


I think that for two pups, a DPDT is enough to do series parallel. There are two ways I can think of to do this circuit, either 4 DPDTs, as I mentioned above, or two DPDTs for phase, and for series/parallel, and a Gibson type three way toggle to select the pups. Do either of those appeal?

John

[zjokka]

thanks John. Went to the music store for pots and saw a Gibson toggle switch, that was only 1 pole. Isn't that Gibson switch on-on-on?
Anyways also bought some more switches, on-on DPDT mini toggles and drilled hole to mount the next to the sliders. I've also tried to figure out the wiring and made the following diagram.



But I do still have some doubts.
-Does the series switching take the hot side of the other pickup before or after the phase switch. In the drawing I placed neck pu in series with what come out of the phase switch. Don't know if that 's correct.
-Also the other set, the pu selector switches, I'm not sure they're correctly wired to the pots.

If anybody could have a quick glance that would be great.
thanks
Johan

[JohnH]

Johan - well done for having a go. those switches will work fine, but I think the diagram is not quite right. eg in series mode, the bridge on/off seems that it would not work. I'll have a try - I have a 3 pickup circuit which will cut down to two pickups, with those switches.
John

[zjokka]

well I just had to have another go. I changed the wiring in the series switch. But I'm trying to understand the what "in series the bridge pu on/off doesn't work" --do you mean the bridge pu wouldn't work? If switching to series meant automatically *also* turning on the bridge pu no matter what is selected on the pu selectors, that would be great. I suspect the latter is not the case.

should i have wired the bridge on/off before the series switch?
do i need a jumper from the bridge on/off to the top terminals of the series switch?

anyway I had another go: still trying to think this through



This still cannot be correct: in series there is no connection to the bridge on off switch.

Maybe RandonHero could move this thread into the new schematics playground? Great idea still.

Do enjoy your Sunday! sunny wheather here in belgium :-)
Johan

[JohnH]

Johan

Its getting late here in Australia! Here is a schematic of how I would try it:
people.smartchat.net.au/~l_jhewitt/circuits/2xseriesparallel.gif

Can you follow that? It is 'hacked' from my three pickup design, with the middle pup and blender removed. It is shown with both pups on, in series mode.

To build it you really need a wiring diagram, such as you have been drawing, rather than a schematic, but I always need to do a schematic first in order to think through how it works. This drawing may help you to work it out, but Id be happy to to a wiring diagram as well, probably tomorrow, if required.

I think you will be pleased with the great range of sounds you will get. Also, this switching is very intuitive to use, each switch has just one function, and there are no dead spots, other than both off. The change from parallel to series is dramatic. Happy wiring.

If you do this and it works - we can put it on the new schematics page.

John

[zjokka]

wow thanks john. i think i should be able to translate that to a wiring schematic. Had to reset my brain as this schematic puts bridge in series and changes phase of the neck, which was reverse but doesn't make a difference. wiring these two switches is ok, but when i came to the pickup selection switches, i got confused.

If both switches are in the on position, shouldn't the left part of the neck switch be pointing left. These switches are drawn in a corner, but seemingly the neck switch functions differently from the bridge one. Shouldn't the moving parts of the on/off switches be parallel no matter in which position the are? Or non-parallel when drawn 'in a corner'. Hope you understand this, I almost don't myself.

Another surprise for me was the position of the capacitator. I feel I'm about to learn something here, but I always thought it should be on the low end of the (neck) tone pot, other leg connected to ground. In your diagram the low end of the pot is connected to ground and the cap connect to the hot lead and the wiper.

Is this something about putting the cap in series or in parallel?
gotta run and go to rehearsal now.
cheers all for listening

[JohnH]

Shouldn't the moving parts of the on/off switches be parallel no matter in which position the are?

Yes, the diagram is OK, but what you say would be a better way of drawing it.

I dont think it matters whether the cap or the pot is grounded, as long as together they are in series between ground and the hot connection.

John

[UnklMickey]

JohnH -- udaman!

as usual, you got things done with fewer poles than i would have originally guessed were necessary.

now, if i could just convince you to flip that left half of the neck on/off switch over, so it doesn't shunt the coil. (i get that you think it doesn't matter, but it doesn't require a more complicted switch -- so might as well?)

U.M.

[zjokka]

Yes, hedaman indeed. Tried finding flaws, but had more trouble understanding the on/off switches and finding out where the middle terminals were. Started wiring it up yesternight though, starting with phase and series switches.

It really is no laugh soldering on these small minitoggle terminals. Glad I didn't get submini's. Did do a wiring diagram first, but just at work in the breaks. It is paper and pencil otherwise I would have uploaded by now -- see it stand the test of scrutiny.

Might do this still. Maybe tonight ...

UM, that was indeed the part of the switch that I started freaking about. Doesn't it only shunt to ground in the off position? Still a lot to learn, will sumarize my questions later today.

eager to learn still
still loads of thantk to JohnH

Johan
------------------

Some hours later, I copied the diagram to paint and had a go. The colors are functional to the extent that they allow indentifying the pickup hot leads, but for the rest: crossing lead in different colors don't connect. But you got that alright. Let's hope this is no too far off. Like I said before, couldn't wait to start wiring last night

[JohnH]

Johan - I cant see any problem with your wiring - but have not done a full check - see if it works. Mind you, I have never made anything that worked first time!.

UM - I thought Id got away with shorting that pickup - should have known Id get caught.

John

[zjokka]

Thanks John you have been great in taking the time to help me. Still..

What this with shorting the pickup - an inside joke? or something I could learn from? I was thinking. Do "interrupting the positive lead of a pickup" and "putting it to ground" the same results?

Maybe I will put a thread about schematic software, but my first question is: do these software contain any kind basic checking on the wiring. I'm such a novice that i don't even know whether this is possible.

From your new posting about the ToneMonster2 I understood the importance of wiring the on/off in such a way that if you are in series mode and you switch of one pickup, the other doesn't get shorted out. Right?

wouldn't dare have completed the wiring without you having a look at the diagram first. but i guess I can fire up my soldering rod tonight and complete it.

Maybe with my diagram not being to far off I could plead RH to move this thread into the new section...

Johan

[UnklMickey]

zjokka said:

...UM, that was indeed the part of the switch that I started freaking about. Doesn't it only shunt to ground in the off position?...

the neck on/off switch needs to provide a path to ground when it's in the off position, and the series/parallel switch is in the series position. the way it's used in this case also shunts the two leads of the neck pickup together. won't damage the pickup or anything, but it's not necessary either. shunting causes damping of the string vibration. John and I differ on whether or not this is on a large enough scale to make a difference. i figure if i make myself a large enough PITA (pain...) then John will eventually avoid coil shunting at least in cases like this where it doesn't cost any extra poles.

i mean why not? he comes up with such cool stuff anyway, might as well go for everything.


U.M.

[JohnH]

shunting causes damping of the string vibration. John and I differ on whether or not this is on a large enough scale to make a difference

Yup - the theory of why this should cause a difference is undeniable. But I really truly can't hear a difference, even with headphones, on two guitars i have tried this on. The ToneMonster2 (see schematics board) can test this, by listening to the bridge pup only, then changing from series to parallel. This either shorts out the other pups (series) or doesnt (parallel).

Johan - If you are interested, your two circuit will also make this test. Wired per my diagram, switch bridge on, neck off and see if you can hear a difference when you change series/parallel. It is easy to swap two wires later if you want to follow Unkls advice.

UM - have been trying hard to think of a reason to keep shorting out coils!. The best I can think of is that you get a smoother switch transition. With a non shorting arrangement, and standard break-before-make switches, there is a disconnected millisecond when you flick the switch, which gives you a blip!.

John

[UnklMickey]

johnh said:

...UM - have been trying hard to think of a reason to keep shorting out coils!. The best I can think of is that you get a smoother switch transition. With a non shorting arrangement, and standard break-before-make switches, there is a disconnected millisecond when you flick the switch, which gives you a blip!...

.:lol:.

that is the finest bit of rationalization i have heard all year! . . . udaman!


U.M.

[UnklMickey]

hey guys,

you might want to look at what were up to over here:

guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=wiring&thread=1130172881&page=1

add a phase switch and you can limit your switch count to 3!

(assuming you like the combinations)

U.M.

[zjokka]

It's always a tense moment plugging in a newly rewired guitar (only my third, and by far the most complex mod). The discovery of the wiring with one less switch came too late as I was already halfway with the wiring. So did go for the 4 switches (2 sliders, 2 toggles)

AND IT WORKS!!

Thanks so much to JohnH for solving this problem so intelligently: when you're in series with both pickup on and you switch off one pickup, the other is still working. Dead positions should really be avoided. Have learned a lot from this.... now I'm eager for another project.

There still are some minor problems: I used 500k pots for both volume and tone (with a 0.047µF cap) and the tone control is fine, but the volume is super sensitive, going from silent to full volume between 6-10. For volume I used a newly bought Alpha mini pot in a music store. When I came home I discovered it read only 480K ! It did say 'A' so it should be the correct type, no? Maybe I will try a 250k just to see if this solves it, they should be less sensitive.

Alpha pot are really Beta pots, I'm beginning to think, won't buy them again. Even the old (20 years+) tone pot that I kept read 515k!

Anyways, with the easily adjustable bridge I will use this guitar for slide, already put .11s on it ,

thanks all (especiall JohnH and Uncle!) for sharing your wisdom.

Hope I get round to take some pictures.

Johan

[JohnH]

Good heavens!! First time I ever heard of something working first time! well done!

That 480k pot is fine for value - well within tolerance. Not sure why you would have that problem. If you turn the knob clockwise (looking from the front of the guitar), does it get louder or quieter?

I find a 'treble bleed cap' is good on the volume control, which solves a loss of treble when you turn it down, but not a overall too sudden drop in volume. - see it on the ToneMonster2.

John

[UnklMickey]

zjokka said:

...Maybe RandonHero could move this thread into the new schematics playground? ...

Johan,

i may be wrong, but i think the schematics board is sort of "reserved" for finished and tested designs.

since you and JohnH are moving along on this project, when it's finished and tested, that would be the appropriate time for JohnH to post a description and his electrical schematic. A good contribution from you would be to supply JohnH with a drawing that shows the actual wiring layout that you used.

that way we'll have a quickly available reference to the finished design.

the conversational work-ups would be best left in the on-going threads like this one.

but, thats just my guess. -- maybe RandomHero will read this, and clarify further what the intended use the schematic sub-board is.


U.M.

[Mini-Strat_Maine]

johnh said:

I find a 'treble bleed cap' is good on the volume control, which solves a loss of treble when you turn it down, but not a overall too sudden drop in volume. - see it on the ToneMonster2.

Some of the custom parts suppliers sell "volume kits" that have a cap and a resistor paralleled. Two that I know of are Acme (680 pf/220K ohm) and Rothstein ("Standard": 680 pf/150K; "Mallory": 1000 pf/150K).
Acme has some interesting comments here: www.acmeguitarworks.com/Volume-Kit-680pf-220K-P87C0.aspx

--
Doug C.

[zjokka]

Thanks all, the volume pot is fine now -- and I learned to stop testing my wirings with headphones my Boss multi FX thing at home. Plugged it into my amp this weekend -- the problem seem to have been compression/treshold on the Boss.

Still the treble bleed will be implemented the next time I open this baby up again.
thanks to all for the great advice.

over to another project (AGAIN?) yeah well...

Johan