Ultimate Guitar Tone - 29 different tones

[jazzy]

I just clicked the link under the ads:

Ultimate Guitar Pickup Tone control.
As I understand I can order a book describing to me (as newbie) how to change my Standard strat in a guitar with even 29 tone-options.
Sounds interesting to me.
Anyone who has ordered this book and can give me an opinion?

Thanks

Jazzy

[UnklMickey]

Jazzy,

if you're talking about the ads on the boards here, they rotate.

they're change all the time.

did you save the link?



U.M.

[zjokka]

well, it must have been this one:

shop.store.yahoo.com/test-store-futures/guitpicrep.html

I think this is very tricky. It says if you pay you can download a document ('a report') which explains you how to wire. I myself would never pay for a document that contains no secret.`

they probably just downloaded it from the net. Websites and forums like this one...

Johan

[UnklMickey]

OMG!

could you imagine how funny it would be if someone (from GN2) bought that report, and it turned out to be just a bunch of stuff lifted from the original GN, Wolf-wire, JohnH's circuits, and the like!

i'm not saying that's what it is, but ya never know...


U.M

[zjokka]

I'm really curious about this number 29: i only find

1 NECK
2 MID
3 BRIDGE

4 NECK + MID parallel
5 MID + BRIDGE parallel
6 NECK + BRIDGE parallel

7 NECK + MID + BRIDGE parallel

8 NECK + MID parallel out of phase
9 NECK + BRIDGE parallel out of phase
10 MID + BRIGE parallel out of phase

11 NECK + MID + BRIDGE parallel out of phase

12 NECK x MID series
13 NECK x BRIDGE series
14 MID x BRIDGE series
15 NECK x MID x BRIDGE series

16 NECK x MID series out of phase
17 NECK x BRIDGE series out of phase
18 MID x BRIDGE series out of phase
19 NECK x MID x BRIDGE series out of phase

20 NECK + MID x BRIDGE
21 NECK x MID + BRIDGE

22 NECK + MID x BRIDGE out of phase
23 NECK x MID + BRIDGE out of phase

24 NECK x BRIDGE + MID
25 NECK x BRIDGE + MID out of phase

there should be 36 possible combination, or is my memory letting me down (again...)?

Johan

[JohnH]

Interesting…Looking at that site, it appears to be offering a design for SSS pickups with 6 toggle switches, to get 29 sounds. I’d be curious to know how it works, but then, not that curious – I think we have toggle switches covered here on GN2!.

By my reckoning, with 1, 2 or 3 pups there are 7 basic in phase combinations. Add a series/parallel switch and you get 11. Throw in a phase switch on one pup, you get another 6, so 17 total (as the ToneMonsrer2). A second phase switch adds 6 more, giving 23. That is as many as theoretically exist with purely series or parallel. To get 29, you’d have to be adding some extra 3 pup combos, with two in series and one in parallel. There’s probably 24 of these that theoretically exist, making 57 total. But who needs them? I’d be a better guitarist if I could play with just one pickup properly, but in the meantime I’ll settle for 17! I don’t think you need every setting – but it is nice to cover the range.

I’m all in favour of designers getting $ for their work. If that did not happen, I would not eat. The price for that report is not very great. But for me, this guitar wiring design thing is a hobby, and I like the interaction that comes from a friendly place like GN2. The designs we develop here would not happen without freely putting up information and open discussion.

[wolf]

John H
Good point about information sharing. To me that is one of the best things about the Internet.
As far as wiring "secrets", just how much copyright protection can anyone claim? How about the humbucking pickup? I know the original Gibson ones had the PAF (patent applied for) stamp on them. However, weren't other guitar manufacturers releasing their own versions even when the patent was still in effect?

[Mustang]

I'm new to GN2 but was wondering what the general wisdom is concerning series/parallel vs in-phase / out-of-phase. Which gives you the most bang per switch allocation? I just finished completely rewiring and replacing the pickups on my Mustang but used original schematics. Now wondering if I should have modified the connections.

[UnklMickey]

mustang said:

I'm new to GN2 but was wondering what the general wisdom is concerning series/parallel vs in-phase / out-of-phase. [glow=green,1,300]Which gives you the most bang per switch allocation?[/glow] I just finished completely rewiring and replacing the pickups on my Mustang but used original schematics. Now wondering if I should have modified the connections.

standard configuration of single coil pups: parallel, in-phase

out-of-phase gives you a thinner, hollow sound.

series gives you a darker, "meaner" sound.

so if you have to pick just one, pick the one that's in the direction you think is of more value to you.


U.M

[wolf]

Mustang
I'd overwhelmingly recommend a series parallel switch over a phase switch. If you go to the original GuitarNuts site you can see what "the man"(John Atchley) has to say about it:



I'm not too familiar with the Fender Mustang nor the modifications you've made to it. How many pickups does it have and are they single coils or 4 wire single coil-sized "humbuckers"?

[Mustang]

Thanks for the comments. When I bought the Mustang new in '71 (based on serial number I think its actually a '69 or '70), it had 2 single coil pups. I changed them to SC strat pups in late 70's and then again a couple of weeks ago with Fender Vintage Noiseless pups. They really are true to their name. They are absoutely quiet. As U.M. stated, the standard wiring is each pup individually and both pups in-phase and out-of-phase. That's why I was interested in the series / parallel configuration.

[UnklMickey]

mustang said:

...As U.M. stated, the standard wiring is each pup individually and both pups in-phase and out-of-phase.

that isn't what i said, but i maybe it's what i should have said?

so, the mustang has 3-position switches for each pickup? (in-phase/off/out-of phase)?

_______________________________________________________


back to the side question on how many combinations of which, series/parallel, and phase-reversal there are for 3 SC pups:

on a technicality, you could say there are 96, but because of the functional equivalents ( A+B is functionally equivalent to A+B ), there are a total of 35.

you might say 97 (36 real) if you count "all off",
but not even a salesman would do that! _{(the previous statement has no warranties either expressed or implied.)}

[jazzy]

I have been wondering too:
1. Why this 29 number
2. Are these new combinations really useful

The link BTW was:
www.greenmachineworks.com/ebay/GuitarPickup/index.html

Hope I inserted it right.

I agree that it all sounds tricky, but then again: ultimate guitar tone.....(added to ultimate fingers of course, which is far more important).

Jazzy

[zjokka]

Maybe it's not so tricky, it's only $5 and look at this --incredible!!
------
GUARANTEE:If The Ultimate in Guitar Pickup Tone Control is not everything that you expect, or you are not completely satisfied with it, then as the licensed reseller of this product, I will refund every penny of your money with no questions asked.

That's more than a guarantee, that's a promise.
--------------
What do they mean? You have to upload the report back on their server???
But you still might get your money back.

Good luck still.
J

[Mike Richardson]

The problem with that, im my opinion, is that it's going to be nearly impossible to use in a live situation. Second, most players are still going to stick with their "meat and potatoes" sounds, regardless of how many tones are available. Third, the parallel/out of phase sounds are going to be way too thin for most players tastes. Just my opinion.

[Runewalker]

Let's just admit it and accept it as gospel:

Single coil, outtaphase in Parallel, combos are novelty tones, unlikely to be used except in oddball overdubs. They are too thin even for funk rhthym or reggae. They are the Channel tones:

"You can never be too rich or too thin...."

- Channel

[UnklMickey]

runewalker said:

...They are the Channel tones:..

but which Channel?

• Clean Channel?
  • Overdrive Channel?
    • Channel 13?
      
    
    
  
  

[UnklMickey]

unklmickey said:

...back to the side question on how many combinations of which, series/parallel, and phase-reversal there are for 3 SC pups:

on a technicality, you could say there are 96, but because of the functional equivalents ( A+B is functionally equivalent to A+B ), there are a total of 35.

you might say 97 (36 real) if you count "all off",
but not even a salesman would do that! _{(the previous statement has no warranties either expressed or implied.)}

good thing i threw in that sales disclaimer at the end.

i mapped the whole thing out and there are:

• 94 combinations total
  
• 78 combinations disregarding series first, when ALL pups are in series and when ALL are in parallel
  
• 39 real combinations
  

i'd love to share the tables with y'all, but i can't figure out how to convert a msWord table into an image format.

and photobucket doesn't accept word files


U.M.




__________________________________________________________________________

jazzy said:

I have been wondering too:
1. Why this 29 number
2. Are these new combinations really useful
...

can't quite figure how he landed on 29

i count 31 if you ignore series first or parallel first


i think that with a superswitch and 1 mini-toggle, you could have 10 selections and that would be more than enough

having just 5 (but the RIGHT five) would still be pretty good.

[Runewalker]

but which Channel?


Clean Channel?


Overdrive Channel?


Channel 13?

Ok i busted myself twice here. Mispelled Chanel (as in #5) and misattibuted the quote to Chanel instead of the Duchess of Windsor.

So the thin of thins single coil outta-phase would not be either the Channel or the Chanel tone to honor the quote, but rather the Duchess tone, which also seems to fall apart because it is hardly a royal tone (and yes I know she was not royalty) [don't you love run-on sentences?].

Aaahhh just forgettaboutit. Weak humor becomes hopeless when flubbed and it requires explaining on top of the flubber.

I'll do better next time, I promise Mommy.

[UnklMickey]

runewalker said:

... Mispelled Chanel (as in #5) and misattibuted the quote to Chanel instead of the Duchess of Windsor.

aw, man! i didn't even know the difference, i thought they were spelled the same. i guess that makes my play on "channel" a lot less funny too.


"..................................nevermind."


U.M.

[JohnH]

i'd love to share the tables with y'all, but i can't figure out how to convert a msWord table into an image format.

Easy UM! To make an image of anything on your screen, get to a good size so it is clear, then hit 'Print Screen' (keybroad top row, near the numbers pad). Then open a graphics program (I use Irfan view, but paint would also work) and go 'paste'. Then crop it to suit and save. Thats how I do the diagrams that I post here.

John

[UnklMickey]

Thanks John!


Okay Peeps,

here are the tables, please double check to make sure there are no typos, or errors.

[JohnH]

Very nice table UM. I keep getrting that there are more of those weird series/parallel combos, which could sound different. I get 24, instead of 16. As follows:

With three pups, there are 4 phase combinations ie, all in phase or one out of three out of phase.
For each of those, you can pick one to be on its own (series or parallel) and two to be together (parallel or series), so write down the number 3
Theres 2 combo ways of connecting them, series first, or parallel first

Multiply all those together, 4 x 3 x 2 = 24 fairly useless combos.

except perhaps, for about 3 which are surprisingly hum cancelling

John

[UnklMickey]

this whole notion of hum canceling gets a bit blurred when you're dealing with 3 pups in series/parallel combinations.

there a folks that insist that if 3 pups are in parallel and on in out of phase, thats hum canceling. i will only go as far as to say that is hum reducing.

when you put (2 in series), with one in parallel, there are some complex things happening there. i would expect certain placements of which one is out-of-phase to have a quite different effect on how much hum reduction would occur.

add to that the fact that on modern 3 pup guitars, the middle is already rwrp, and my head starts to hurt just thinkin' about how difficult it would be to keep track of whats what and estimate how much these combos would reduce the hum.

i do think that the (series first) vs (parallel first) differences will be substantial both in sound and the amount of hum reduction for a given phase combination. but i wouldn't be able to begin to predict which ones would be best.

i'm not sure this is confusing enough.

maybe we need to consider using FOUR single coils!


U.M.

[Runewalker]

Unk and JohnH:

make that 4 humbuckers and you have 8 single coils. Now theres some fun.

could finally put to use a bod with a swimming pool rout, but may have to a cantelevered extension for all of the switches.

Careful, JH has a 4 pup design he can whip out when challenged.

[wolf]

As just about everyone knows, I have a 94 sound diagram for a 3 humbucker guitar at my website on this page:
www.1728.com/guitar3.htm
I think these super deluxe extra multi switching options (including mine) are way too much. After taking the trouble of wiring one of my guitars for this 94 sound monstrosity, quite recently I undid the whole darned thing in favor of a simpler arrangement. Incidentally, none of those 94 sound options include any out of phase or coil cut sounds.
Runewalker mentioned the possiblilities for a 4 humbucker guitar. Well good luck.

[UnklMickey]

wolf said:

As just about everyone knows, I have a 94 sound diagram for a 3 humbucker guitar at my website on this page:
www.1728.com/guitar3.htm
I think these super deluxe extra multi switching options (including mine) are way too much. After taking the trouble of wiring one of my guitars for this 94 sound monstrosity, quite recently I undid the whole darned thing in favor of a simpler arrangement. Incidentally, none of those 94 sound options include any out of phase or coil cut sounds.
Runewalker mentioned the possiblilities for a 4 humbucker guitar. Well good luck.

obviously these switching arrangements can be way too much for real-world use.

this is even more apparent when you consider that the "94 sound options" is truly a misnomer. when you throw out the functional equivalents there are only at most "39 sound options" and some of them are either not very useful, or differ only slightly from others.

even if one were inclined to put together a switching arrangement, just for the purpose of evaluating which sounds would be desirable to include in a moderate sized set of perhaps 8 sounds, i question the "manageability" of an arrangement that has 4096 possible switch combinations, to get 39 different sounds, and requires a recipe list to figure out how to get a particular combination. (how's that for a run on sentence?)

that would be quite tricky to work with just for evaluation purposes. and a total nightmare to deal with on stage when accidentally hitting the wrong switch could leave you with no sound at all. YIKES!

IMHO, while i see only very limited use for an well implemented arrangement for that provides access to all 39 sounds, is intuitive in switch functions, has no "dead" combinations, has a minimum of redundancies, leaves no "coil-hanging-from-hot antennas", and shunts no coils, i see far less if those goals are not met.

given the minimal activity here:
guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=wiring&thread=1127773200&page=1
we can see that even discussing these complex switching arrangements doesn't interest many folks at all, except when a sale-pitch is involved.

so even if one were to take the time to figure out how to do it, and meet all the objectives, it still doesn't really generate much interest. just one of those "puzzle" sort of exercises.

4 HB, 8 coils? complete switching arrangement for all coils? hmmm?

i think that falls outside of the realm of GuitarNuts. maybe TotallyNuts!

and i'm only SortaNuts. (at least thats all i'll admit to!)

U.M.

[wolf]

unklmickey
Actually, my 94 sound option wiring diagram is not a misnomer. It actually offers 94 distinct switching arrangements. My point is that those 94 sounds are not strikingly different from each other. (If they were, I wouldn't have undone all that work to wire in a simpler arrangement would I?)