Complex HSH wiring. Wiring diagram needed.

[Adam]

Sorry about the delay guys. Had uni to attend to so I was a bit strapped for time. I redid the wiring diagram and tried adding the rest of the components (tone and volume pots etc). I just need you guys to check it for me.

Once again, apologies for the terrible drawing/handwriting.

[newey]

Adam-

Back at the beginning of this thread, you said:

I would like to wire it so I have two tone controls with the CTRL-X knob as the neck tone control and the Tone knob as the middle and bridge tone control. But when the CTRL-X switch is used I want it to work like:
Up:CTRL-X knob as neck tone and Tone knob as middle and bridge tone.
Middle: CTRL-X knob as magnetic/piezo blend and Tone knob as global tone.
Down: Neither knobs has any function.

I assume this is still the game plan?

If so, you haven't achieved it. With the "tone half of CTRL-X" switch set so that the upper switch lugs are connected, you have the "B + M" tone control connected when the 5-way switch is in either position 1 (bridge) or position 3 (middle), and the neck tone control connected when in position 5. In positions 2 and 4, no tone controls are active.

With the switch set to the center position, the bridge/middle control is active when the 5-way is set to position 5 (neck), as well as positions 3 and 1, as above. With the switch set to connect the lower lugs, the neck tone is connected at position 5, and the bridge/middle remains connected at positions 1 and 3.

Since we don't see the other half of the CRTL-X switch, we don't see the piezo wiring and so can't see how the knob would be functioning as a blend control in the center switch position.

I'm still not sure what you want to do with the tone controls can if fact be done, unless/until we see how the piezo switching is integrated (because you want the center switch position to be piezo/mag blend). Even apart from that however, as shown, you don't have any tone controls in positions 2 and 4 of the 5-way, regardless of the position of the CRTL-X switch. And the bridge/middle control is always in circuit (at positions 1 and 3) regardless of the CRTL-X setting.

Also note that your tone controls aren't wired the same- one has the wiper to ground, the other has the wiper as the input. If you want them to operate the same, you should pick one way or the other to wire both knobs. Further consider that there is probably no good reason to share a capacitor between the two tone controls, and you might want to consider different values.

[Adam]

Aug 28, 2013 11:57:28 GMT -5 newey said:

Adam-

Back at the beginning of this thread, you said:

I would like to wire it so I have two tone controls with the CTRL-X knob as the neck tone control and the Tone knob as the middle and bridge tone control. But when the CTRL-X switch is used I want it to work like:
Up:CTRL-X knob as neck tone and Tone knob as middle and bridge tone.
Middle: CTRL-X knob as magnetic/piezo blend and Tone knob as global tone.
Down: Neither knobs has any function.

I assume this is still the game plan?

Yes, that is what I'm after.

With the switch set to the center position, the bridge/middle control is active when the 5-way is set to position 5 (neck), as well as positions 3 and 1, as above. With the switch set to connect the lower lugs, the neck tone is connected at position 5, and the bridge/middle remains connected at positions 1 and 3.

Since we don't see the other half of the CRTL-X switch, we don't see the piezo wiring and so can't see how the knob would be functioning as a blend control in the center switch position.

Well from the switch, the wires on the CTR-X switch go to the CTRL preamp, which is pretty much just a little circuit board with a pot and some wires attached to it.

Also note that your tone controls aren't wired the same- one has the wiper to ground, the other has the wiper as the input. If you want them to operate the same, you should pick one way or the other to wire both knobs. Further consider that there is probably no good reason to share a capacitor between the two tone controls, and you might want to consider different values.

I just copied how the tone pots was wired shown in the stock fender wiring that I found on this site. Regarding tonecaps, what would you recommend that I use?

[Adam]

I was looking back on JohnH's diagram sketch, which was the basis for what I've come up with now.

I was just wondering for the autotap, why are both the bridge and neck centre wires connected to both positions 2 and 4 of their respective poles? Wouldn't it make more sense if the bridge and neck centre wires only went to positions 2 and 4 respectively, which would free up other position lugs for the tone pots as the bridge only autotaps in position 2 and the neck in position 4? I don't really know, it's just something I'm unsure about.

[newey]

I'll let John weigh in on that as it's his diagram, but I think you're correct, you could just use one pole for both autotap settings- bridge pickup "center tap" goes to lug 2, neck "center tap" goes to lug 4. You then have a whole pole to use for your tone pots.

[JohnH]

Agreed you could disconnect the centre taps of B from lug 4 and N from lug 2 (depending on which way round you conisder numbers 1 to 5). But I think two poles are still needed as before for the tapping, if you want to be able to select which coil gets picked. To do that, Bcentre might be taken to hot and Ncentre to ground for example. Thats why its a superswitch instead of a standard switch. So even if you do that, I cant see how to use the other empty lugs as well to switch tone circuits.

[Adam]

I have absolutely no idea how to do the tone controls. Which lugs of the superswitch do the (bridge + middle) and the neck tone go? Also on the pots themselves, which Lug do I wire to the superswitch and which do it wire to a cap that goes to ground? What cap values would you recommend if I'm just going for a balanced tone (not too dark/muffled on the neck or not too bright on the bridge). What difference does it make if the cap goes on the middle lug rather than one of the side lugs?
I based the tone wiring of my previous sketch off this drawing that I found on guitarnuts, but it doesn't work in positions 2 and 4 from what you've told me.

For now, we'll just ignore the switching the tone circuits thing. I think I've already figured how to do that.

[JohnH]

Hi Adam

So have you worked out tone switching? The last part of your post says you have. But I confess that I cant see how to get your selectable autosplits, and control tone pots so you have B and M for one and N for the other. The superswitch is all used up. What you can do, and i think its fine, is to hard-wire the tone controls across the bridge and neck pups, and they will also work in 2 and 4, but M alone has no tone control.

My opinion is that a good tone cap for mixed pickups is a 0.022uF. Thats what I liked best when I tested a range of values for my hss strat.

In terms of cap and tone pot wiring, the diagram you posted above shows it. I also prefer the cap on the ground side but it doesnt really make much difference if it is on the hot side of the tone pot. The pot lugs shown are the right ones but it doesnt matter which way round you connect those two.

[Adam]

Sept 3, 2013 1:12:39 GMT -5 JohnH said:

Hi Adam

So have you worked out tone switching? The last part of your post says you have. But I confess that I cant see how to get your selectable autosplits, and control tone pots so you have B and M for one and N for the other. The superswitch is all used up. What you can do, and i think its fine, is to hard-wire the tone controls across the bridge and neck pups, and they will also work in 2 and 4, but M alone has no tone control.

Hmm.. What about if the B+M tone pot was a double-ganged pot? Would hard wiring the Bridge side to 2 and 4, while the other side just goes to middle alone work? So it's basically a B+M on the same pot, but on separate wafer things with possibly different cap values.

[JohnH]

I think you may be onto something there. If you hard wire a tone pot and cap across each pickup (nothing on the 5 way), and the N and M pots are actually a dual ganged pot, then you would have control in each setting with your two tone knobs. Probably 500k would be the best value.

Better (and maybe you are already onto this), the pot half for the middle uses the unused middle lug of the side of the 5 way that also does B at 1 and 2, and N at 4 and 5. That way, you dont get the usual strat problem of two tone pots dragging down the tone in the mixed positions. Thats it, its perfect for what you want.

[Adam]

Sept 3, 2013 4:27:05 GMT -5 JohnH said:

I think you may be onto something there. If you hard wire a tone pot and cap across each pickup (nothing on the 5 way), and the N and M pots are actually a dual ganged pot, then you would have control in each setting with your two tone knobs. Probably 500k would be the best value.

I'm not quite understanding what's going on here. You've lost me at "nothing on the 5 way". Are you saying to wire the tone pots and cap directly to the pickups while bypassing the superswitch?

Better (and maybe you are already onto this), the pot half for the middle uses the unused middle lug of the side of the 5 way that also does B at 1 and 2, and N at 4 and 5. That way, you dont get the usual strat problem of two tone pots dragging down the tone in the mixed positions. Thats it, its perfect for what you want.

I was thinking that this makes the most sense to me. So for the Bridge half of the pot, should I be using 500k and 250k for the middle half of the pot? 0.022uF on the Middle and Bridge tone and 0.047uF on the Middle? I'm assuming you use the higher cap value on the single coil to cut the brightness out of it? Or would you suggest just 0.022uF on everything?

[newey]

Adam-

It's tough to find dual-ganged pots in a 250K/500K combo. JohnH's suggestion is to use one that's 500K on both sides. I concur. The single coil in the middle will be a little bit brighter with the 500K, if so you can always dial it back a bit with the tone control.

It's been said before here but bears repeating- a 500K pot with the tone turned down to about "8" will be just like a 250K.

As for the tone caps, understand that these don't affect anything so long as the tone pot is at "10". The difference in cap value just affects the response as you turn the pot down. .022µf is a good compromise for both types of pickups, but with dual pots you can use different values for each- .047 is often used for HBs, for example.

I'm not quite understanding what's going on here. You've lost me at "nothing on the 5 way". Are you saying to wire the tone pots and cap directly to the pickups while bypassing the superswitch?

The tone pots for the bridge and neck HBs will get wired "across" those pickups before the output from the pup and tone pot go to the 5-way switch. John is then suggesting that the middle pickup tone (on one half of the dual-ganged pot)be wired from the unused middle lug of the Superswitch, so that the mid tone control is only active when the switch is in position 3, with the middle pup itself. This keeps the resistance of that pot out of the circuit at the other settings.

Since your diagram is now back a page, I forget which middle lug to use, but it's the one which connects to output, not to ground.

[JohnH]

I thought about that for at least 10 minutes....

Its a bit down to personal taste, and somewhat to do with how the pickups actually sound. But short of knowing aything about that, Im going to suggest that all three pots / half pots are 500k log and all get 0.022 caps. that way you can explore that natural differences in your settings without having them skewed by different tone circuits, and it will give you the most range in all settings.

So, its B with its own hard wired pot/cap , N with a hardwired half of double pot and cap going across its own leads, and M with the other pot half, via the unused middle lug on the 5 way.

[Adam]

Should I keep the Volume at 500k log? That's what I have now. The stock one was a 250k log. There any difference there?

[JohnH]

Sept 3, 2013 6:06:40 GMT -5 Adam said:

Should I keep the Volume at 500k log? That's what I have now. The stock one was a 250k log. There any difference there?

Id personally go with 500k volume, but I like a bright clear sound. I highly recommend a treble bleed circuit too, with 1nF and 150k in parallel on the 500k pot, hot to centre lugs. Have you got the 500k going now? how does it sound?

[Adam]

Sept 3, 2013 6:16:14 GMT -5 JohnH said:

Sept 3, 2013 6:06:40 GMT -5 Adam said:

Should I keep the Volume at 500k log? That's what I have now. The stock one was a 250k log. There any difference there?

Id personally go with 500k volume, but I like a bright clear sound. I highly recommend a treble bleed circuit too, with 1nF and 150k in parallel on the 500k pot, hot to centre lugs. Have you got the 500k going now? how does it sound?

Compared to the 250k pot, I couldn't hear any difference or I don't remember what the 250k sounds like. As for how it sounds, it sounds pretty good to me. With the treble bleed circuit, don't you need a double gang pot for the volume as well? I remember reading one of the threads here. What difference does it make? Does it just stop it from going muddy when you turn the volume knob down? Also a 1uF cap? The diagram in the treble bleed circuit thread says 0.067uf. Does that make a difference? Which sounds better?

Also, for caps, would you recommend a specific type? Orange drops? Right now, I've just got these no name green things that I found at Jaycar for about 50 cents. I should probably buy better tone pots too rather than the cheap ones I found off ebay. Once you roll past two, it makes pretty much no difference. No "wah wah" effect when you do a sweep. It's a global 500k log tone control with a 0.047uF cap if you're wondering.

[JohnH]

Cap type makes no real difference. Green ones from Jaycar are fine.

The treble bleed works on a normal log volume pot, to help preserve treble at lower volume. I did work out a version with a dual gang volume pot, which looked promising, but then when I worked it out further, I found the simple version can work just as well with the right values. If you dont worry about, or actually prefer, some treble to roll off as you turn down, then you wouldnt need it.

For pots, I prefer the 24mm diameter ones to the smaller types. You may find that you are limited to the style of the shaft, eg solid or splined, which affects which knobs you use. So a new set of consistent pots may be needed.

[Adam]

In terms of pots, I think I might've struck gold. www.mouser.com/PCN/SC1058_PDB183-GTR_PUM.pdf I had no idea these existed and my original plan was to take some ordinary push/pull pots apart and just make them myself. It does make me happy to find these. Since I found these off the mouser website, I think the cost of shipping might make me cry a little.

[newey]

The link to the Bourns pots appears to be an ordinary push/pull pot, not a dual-ganged pot. Are you seeing something else?

[Adam]

Sept 3, 2013 11:29:00 GMT -5 newey said:

The link to the Bourns pots appears to be an ordinary push/pull pot, not a dual-ganged pot. Are you seeing something else?

I don't know what you're seeing, but I'm seein this:

[newey]

But then, click on the highlighted link to the part no. "PDB183-GTR" and it takes you to a technical data sheet for an ordinary P/P pot.

[Adam]

Sept 3, 2013 21:28:39 GMT -5 newey said:

But then, click on the highlighted link to the part no. "PDB183-GTR" and it takes you to a technical data sheet for an ordinary P/P pot.

Scroll down to the second page of the data sheet. It shows the circuit for the dual gang. It's just the data sheet for that general series of pots with the individual models.

[Adam]

Sept 3, 2013 7:00:23 GMT -5 JohnH said:

Cap type makes no real difference. Green ones from Jaycar are fine.

The treble bleed works on a normal log volume pot, to help preserve treble at lower volume. I did work out a version with a dual gang volume pot, which looked promising, but then when I worked it out further, I found the simple version can work just as well with the right values.

So what's that wiring going to look like? The resister and cap coming out of the output of the volume and going to ground or going somewhere else?

[JohnH]

Sept 3, 2013 6:16:14 GMT -5 JohnH said:

Sept 3, 2013 6:06:40 GMT -5 Adam said:

Should I keep the Volume at 500k log? That's what I have now. The stock one was a 250k log. There any difference there?

Id personally go with 500k volume, but I like a bright clear sound. I highly recommend a treble bleed circuit too, with 1nF and 150k in parallel on the 500k pot, hot to centre lugs. 

[Adam]

Sept 4, 2013 5:01:15 GMT -5 JohnH said:

Sept 3, 2013 6:16:14 GMT -5 JohnH said:

Id personally go with 500k volume, but I like a bright clear sound. I highly recommend a treble bleed circuit too, with 1nF and 150k in parallel on the 500k pot, hot to centre lugs. 

I don't quite understand that.

[JohnH]

Sept 4, 2013 6:07:28 GMT -5 Adam said:

Sept 4, 2013 5:01:15 GMT -5 JohnH said:

I don't quite understand that.

See it wired across the volume control on this design:

guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/6758/strat-ssm-simple-series-single

except 150k and 1nF in your case, if you are using a 500k log volume pot

[Adam]

Here is the updated diagram with invisible treble bleed circuit (could not be bothered drawing it). I think I could get a headache just by looking at it. Lines everywhere! In this diagram, we're just gonna pretend that the CTRL-X circuit is there, but not seen. Those red and green circle things are meant to be caps. Sorry about the really dodgy drawing. I tried. Used one of JohnH's diagrams that I found somewhere else and after a painful amount of time of erasing the drawn lines that were originally there.

[Adam]

Just out of curiosity, what are the 4 lugs on each corner of the superswitch for? If they're not for positions, what purpose/function do they serve? I've been using them in my diagrams, but never really understood what they're there for.

[newey]

Adam-

Those are the "Pole" lugs, also called the "common" lugs.

In Position 1 of the lever, each pole lug is connected to its lug #1, in position 2 of the lever, each pole lug connects to its lug #2, etc.

The Superswitch is a 4P5T (4 Pole, 5 Throw) switch. It's basically 4 separate switches stacked together and controlled by the same lever.

Sorry, no time to check your diagram at the moment, it may be a day or so before I can vet it as I'm on the road at present (in beautiful Hazard, Kentucky- surprised I have net access!).

[jimdrack]

Sept 9, 2013 10:13:01 GMT -5 Adam said:

Just out of curiosity, what are the 4 lugs on each corner of the superswitch for? If they're not for positions, what purpose/function do they serve? I've been using them in my diagrams, but never really understood what they're there for.

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