How Much, For What ?

[UnklMickey]

I've heard folks say "A great amp can make a crummy guitar sound good. But a crummy amp will make a great guitar sound crummy."
_{(Well actually they used another word instead of crummy.)}

Years ago I would have said "Heck no! You can't fix intonation with good sound quality"
_{(and I would have used a different word instead of heck.)}


I guess my point is:

Given the state of guitars and amps TODAY, how much money would you spend for what.

Let's say your total budget is $1200.

You need to buy a guitar, amp, and whatever accessories and effects.


What would YOU do?

[Trey]

$900 on a used Dr. Z Maz 18.
$150 on a used Ibanez Artcore.
$50 for a pro-setup for the Artcore.
$50 for bone nut installation.
$50 for a used Boss Blues Driver.

Tone heaven. The quality of cheap guitars has gone thru the roof in the past 20 odd years, you can get a great guitar nowadays for less than $600, half that on the used market. I think of it like this, the amp is you engine, and the guitar is the body of the car. Put a Viper engine in a Honda and it goes like the wind, but put a Honda engine in a Viper and you've emasculated it... It's the same with guitars and amps, a good amp will do more for your sound than a great guitar will, all things being equal.

So, I'd rather spend more money on a great amp that will last me forever and be far less finiky than a guitar will(setups, fret dressings, refrets, etc...) rather than have a $2,000 guitar and a $300 solidstate amp.

[GuyaGuy]

trey said:

The quality of cheap guitars has gone thru the roof in the past 20 odd years, you can get a great guitar nowadays for less than $600, half that on the used market. I think of it like this, the amp is you engine, and the guitar is the body of the car. Put a Viper engine in a Honda and it goes like the wind, but put a Honda engine in a Viper and you've emasculated it... It's the same with guitars and amps, a good amp will do more for your sound than a great guitar will, all things being equal.

So, I'd rather spend more money on a great amp that will last me forever and be far less finiky than a guitar will(setups, fret dressings, refrets, etc...) rather than have a $2,000 guitar and a $300 solidstate amp.

i think we've all made similar comments about budget guitars nowadays--they're just so % good. plus the savvy guitarist realizes nowaday that having a guitar body hand-crafted doesn't have any effect on tone. same goes for
amps can be had for cheap too but you have to do more shopping around. i think Trey is diminishing the importance of the guitar in the overall tone you get, but it is true that you can get a million dollar sound out of a $200 guitar.

my current set-up prolly actually cost around unklmickey's budget of $1200. guitar: $350 incl s&h, amp $200 and it's a mesa mark clone! that leaves $650 for all the fx pedals that i have--more than the amp and guitar cost together!

[wolf]

I've always been in favor of the guitar being much more important than the amp. Besides intonation, buzzing frets, dead frets, a good amp can't make up for ridiculously high action.
I believe Frank Zappa at one point is his career would play on stage with a Gibson SG Standard plugged into a Pignose which was "miked" into the PA.

[Trey]

wolf said:

I've always been in favor of the guitar being much more important than the amp. Besides intonation, buzzing frets, dead frets, a good amp can't make up for ridiculously high action.
I believe Frank Zappa at one point is his career would play on stage with a Gibson SG Standard plugged into a Pignose which was "miked" into the PA.

All those problems are easily fixed by a setup and possibly a new nut though, and of course smart shopping to begin with. But a cheap amp can never be improved...

[GuyaGuy]

wolf said:

I've always been in favor of the guitar being much more important than the amp. Besides intonation, buzzing frets, dead frets, a good amp can't make up for ridiculously high action.
I believe Frank Zappa at one point is his career would play on stage with a Gibson SG Standard plugged into a Pignose which was "miked" into the PA.

true, but in the 50s, 60s and 70s it was difficult to find a guitar without those problems that didn;t cost a fortune. nowadays you have to go out of yr way to find a guitar WITH those problems!

oh, and "ridiculously high action" actually sounds GOOD! just ask BB king!

[UnklMickey]

i just LOVE these opinion threads!

every post a mixture of a bit of universal truth, and an individuals personal taste.

Guitars are incredibly important. but decent ones can be had "for a song" these days. and a few parts and a good set-up can turn a decent guitar into a very good guitar. (Trey nailed that one cold!)

one thing i expected was:

• no one mentioned in their budget the hard-shell case, cables, tuner, strings, picks, etc,etc,etc.

don't think there's more?

• how about polish, cloths, amp cover, guitar stand.

are you done now?

• NOPE! no guitar case is complete without band-aids, nu-skin, asprin, and earplugs.
  

alright enough for now. let's just say at least $200 for accessories. (incl. HSC)



so MY budget just dropped to $1000 for the big 2 ^1/2
Guitar, Amp, and Effects (i guess you get by now i'm not big on effects, more on that later.)


so i guess i can plan on about $200 for a decent axe, $150 for parts and set-up (i'll pretend i won't be doing this myself), and $50 for an OD pedal.

so that leaves only $350 for a used tube amp.

what about the other $250?

well that tube amp probably has a tired speaker, i'll need some spare tubes and fuses, and here's another place where a tech can make a huge difference. i'll need a tech who's more than a solder jockey.

for $150~200 i don't expect to be able to commission Ken Fischer, but a bright young tech should still be able to make that little amp sing.

i haven't allotted any of the budget for a mic. or phase/flanger, chorus, echo, etc. that's the soundman's job.

and thats where all those effects belong anyway. after the amp creates the basic tone, and beams it back at me, so i can hear what i'm doing (and leaving the rest of the room less loud for the other musicians), that mic will allow the soundman to make me to sound BIG without sounding LOUD. a good soundman can do that.

is this the best way to do it?

PROBABLY (if you're me!)

but you're not me.

so if you're smart, you'll look at all these posts and the ones that follow. and pick things that fit YOUR needs, and YOUR style, and YOUR situation. and create YOUR own budget.

[Runewalker]

Well this looks like one of those threads that will incite the guitar/amp religious zealots. And Uncle, why do you want to start a fantasy thread and bring all that reality about cables and cases.

I would assume that the folks reading this already have the basics because you have to play a while and play around (careful Uncle) to have a set of tone pursuits in mind and sense of how to obtain them.

That said, let's define the objective as sound input, shapers and expanders (guitar, boxes, amps) for $1200. I won't argue that a case is important it is, but its a nag that gets in the way of the fantasy process.

So the guitar becomes the easiest part of the equation. I would build one from parts, and I try to stick to a $200 budget (but that ignores the value of my labor and the invaluable wealth of the ideas and designs on this board used to execute the guitar. ). If I wanted to deluxe-it I would go to $300.

Next are the boxes. If you put the effort into the patch programing the modelers out there are amazing. Covering amp, cabinet and stompbox emulations. Now this will provoke the zealots who go livid over this technology. Is it perfect? No way. But it will give a range of serviceable sounds that vastly expand the palate. GNX-IIIs and PodXT are in the $225 range on Ebay, more of course new. Tonelabs and GNX-IV get in the $400 range.

So that leaves between $775 and $500 for the amp. If you have a modeler I do suggest a pure tone amp to warm those cold hearted beasties. My Twin brain does so nicely, but really I don't need a full bore 747 Jet on take-off any longer. at 3.5 my ears are crying and the waves of feedback are breaking too many dishes. So I am looking for a great but reasonable 50Watt unit. So right now I am leaving this spot blank, awaiting the guidance of fellow boarders in the best candidates for a 50W tube amp that a great sounding unit and is very reasonable. I need to stay out of Unk's tax bracket.

This whole equation changes if the modeler is not used. but you can get a lot of stompers for that budget, at least used.

Never qualified this fantasy as new or used or mixed.

RW

[dunkelfalke]

unklmickey said:

Let's say your total budget is $1200.

You need to buy a guitar, amp, and whatever accessories and effects.


What would YOU do?

$1200? that is about 1000 euros.

used hohner revelation for about 200 euros (well, there are no new revelations being built for years)
www.madamp.de/a15mk1.htm
madamp a15mk1 for 250 euros
channel switching pedal, 10 euros
electronic tuner, 10 euros
cables, 10 euros

500 euros so far

laney hcm412A 4x12" celestion, 275 euros

still 225 euros left. that money can be spent on decent pickups

[UnklMickey]

runewalker said:

...And Uncle, why do you want to start a fantasy thread and bring all that reality about cables and cases....

after all these years of having my fantasies brought back to earth by reality, i guess misery does love company.

________________________________________________


Dunk, (is that O.K. for short?)

i was interested in the version of the madamp you chose.

with those 6V6 tubes (a favorite among the hi-fi crowd) it should have an exceptional "clean" sound. with all the raving about EL-84 "chiming" i would have guessed that '84s would have been your choice.

have you played both versions?

what were the factors involved in your choice?


U.M.

[dunkelfalke]

falke is better

have missed the opportunity to play any of the version - fist by having a fiancee (now an ex-fiancee, d@mn her) overseas and spending waaaay too much money for phone calls

second just having not enough time for going to the presentation of the amp. but i know several people with madamps and they assure that they rock (both literal and figural)

according to the sound samples they both sound great (a15mk1 maybe a bit better) so it is just a simple consideration: m15mk1 is 40 euros cheaper but you can buy a15mk1 with a prerouted and preprinted chassis for another 34 euros, with m15mk1 you must do the routing yourself and the front plate alone costs 50 euros.

[bam]

about $600 for an used Fender Twin Reverb
$300 for a nice looking Ibanez RG-series
(probably $50 for repainting)
$150 for a pair of DiMarzio humbuckers
$50 for an used Boss Super Dist

.. Even if the budget is lowered by $400, I can still get an used Peavey Bandit 112 or Classic Chorus 212 they ARE solidstate, but as far as I know, I liked 'em.

[therancidmonkey]

For me (since I am actually doing this at the moment)

For me:

$300 Stratocaster MIM
Planet Waves Autotrim Tuners $60
Custom Shop Texas Specials $140

So we now have $500 in the guitar leaving us $700 to fk around with on the amp

Dead Silverface Bassman 10 $200
New PT $125
new pots, caps, resistors etc, phenolenic board, turrets etc. required to build Rumble Circuit from schematicheaven $75

This leaves us for $300 to invest in beer. Because High voltage guitar amps and copious quantities of alcohol are always a recipe for success.

John

[UnklMickey]

therancidmonkey said:

...This leaves us for $300 to invest in beer. Because High voltage guitar amps and copious quantities of alcohol are always a recipe for success. ...

hmmm?

might bring a new dimesion to the phrase: "getting all lit up"

[UnklMickey]

bam said:

about $600 for an used Fender Twin Reverb....

nice price! what are used deluxe reverbs going for out your way?

[bam]

well, actually, since I never had such an amount of cash, I just do a bit Googling and found out that the cheapest used Twin Reverbs are around $600.. (--); well, I'm a complete noob in the amp department, after all.

[UnklMickey]

yeah i guess you could get a re-issue for that kinda price.

my brain was racing ahead, thinking of vintage at that price, and extrapolating out to a really affordable vintage deluxe.

[UnklMickey]

runewalker said:

Well this looks like one of those threads that will incite the guitar/amp religious zealots. ...

i beg your pardon! . i represent that remark!

[Runewalker]

i beg your pardon! . i represent that remark!

Unk, remember:

Chevy drivers don't let friends drive Fords;
Gibson players don't let friends play Fenders;
mothers, don't let Johnny marry outside his faith;
The only amp worth a cod is a tube amp;
don't let facts interfere with beliefs;
and .....
Thus sayeth the Lord.

RW