Rotary switch diagram help please

[chinggy]

I'm planning to get a 3 position 4 pole rotary switch and I wanted to wire it with the existing 5 way selector on a SSS strat.
I would like:
1st position stock strat settings
2nd position N*B, N*M, B*M (* standing for series)
3rd position N+B and N+M+B (+ standing for parallel)
And anything else left over
I was wondering if this was possible? How would it work out? Could you post a diagram please? Thank you

[JohnH]

Hello chinggy and welcome.

Sometimes such requests happen to work out with a bit of luck. But I've had a think about your request, looking at some of the various ways in which our mod designs work, to see if any could be adapted. Unfortunately I don't think so, which doesn't mean its impossible, just that I don't know how,

cheers
John

Ps this might be possible:

Position 1: - standard Strat
Position 2: - standard strat with neck forced on in all positions: N, N+M, N+M, N+M+B, N+B
Position 3: - series sounds: NxM, (N+B)xM, BxM, BxM, BxM

Order of positions 1, 2 3 could swap. It gives you all your request, except for BxN. Instead, you get B and N in parallel, all in series with M, which is actually a good sound. The idea comes from this:

guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/7117/strat-ssm3-series-parallel-switch

but using a rotary instead of a toggle

[newey]

chinggy-

Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!

I'm not sure exactly what you propose here, but it doesn't sound doable, at least not exactly as you propose. The standard 5-way switch is your limiting factor.

You want:

1st position stock strat settings

So far, no problem, one pole of the rotary just bypasses to the 5-way switch.

2nd position N*B, N*M, B*M (* standing for series)

OK, here's the issue. It's one click of the rotary from position 1 to position 2, but you want it to do three things- N*B, B*M, N*M. What's going to switch between those three options? The 5-way switch? If that was the thought, a regular 2-pole 5-way switch can't do that. A Superswitch might be able to handle it, we'd need to explore that further.

3rd position N+B and N+M+B (+ standing for parallel)

OK, another click of the rotary, and once again, two options are wanted. However, this much, at least, could be done in conjunction with your standard 5-way, if you used the rotary to simply turn the bridge pickup "on" at all times regardless of the position of the 5-way switch. The 5-way then gives you N+B, N+M+B, B+M, B+M, B. You could also choose to turn on the neck pickup instead, it would give you the same options you want, but in a different order on the 5-way.

Back to your series dilemma. If you scale back your wants a bit, you could be back in business. You could use the rotary, at position 2 let's say, to turn any one pickup "on", in series, with whatever is selected on the 5-way. You'd have some of the series selections you want, just not all three. For example, if the bridge were placed in series with the 5-way, your 5-way would switch between N*B, (N+M)*B, M*B, (M+B)*B, B. You wouldn't get the N*M. Or, if you put the neck is series with the 5-way instead, you'd get N*M at position 3 of the 5-way, but you wouldn't have the M*B.

[JohnH]

I just read what newey posted and his idea and mine are closely related, mainly the difference is which pickup is put in series, and which gets forced on in parallel

[ashcatlt]

newey - what does (M + B) * B equal...err...sound like?

[newey]

newey - what does (M + B) * B equal...err...sound like?

That's a darned good question, ash. I have no idea how that works out, or if you'd even have any output at all in that position.

My first thought was that it would actually be just M + B. But then I started to question that; I'd need to see a diagram, I think.

JohnH-

You must have posted that while I was typing, but basically the same idea. I also thought of referring chinggy to the SSM diagram, as well as the Mike Richardson scheme.

What chinggy wants(sans phase)is essentially an "all-every" axe, minus the all-series N*M*B (not a big omission, AFAIAC)

[ashcatlt]

It depends how you stack the series. You either have one end of B connected to both ends of M or vice versa. It will sound like one of the pickups by itself because the other is shorted.

[sumgai]

ash,

Actually, your statement is correct only for (M*B)+B. In such a combo, B's negative lead connects to both leads of M, thus shorting M, and leaving only B to conduct a signal to the output.

But in the case at bar, M+B is in series with B. We can see instantly that attaching the B 'ground' of the series configuration to the M+B shared 'hot' lead will do more than just short out the B pickup - it's now shorting the whole enchilada.


-> B's positive is at output (the series portion);
-> B's negative is at ground (the parallel portion);
-> B's positive is tied to B's negative, via the assumed configuration; <-- DANGER, WILL ROBINSON!

Ergo, we have a direct short from output to ground, thus yielding up an end result something akin to a 60dB down acoustic guitar.....

Just for fun.   Hey, don't look at me, newey started it!










sumgai

[ashcatlt]

Yep. You're right, sg. I only looked so far... But yeah, both "hots" need to go to jack tip, and both "grounds" need to jack sleeve, and then at the same time one of the "hots" needs to connect to the other's "ground", which connects everything to everything no matter which way you stack it!

[chinggy]

Thanks everyone for your replies I was just wondering how far the 5-way could be stretched and I guess the way I mentioned was too far. 

Jan 16, 2014 6:55:57 GMT -5 newey said:

I liked Newey's idea of that ^ and what John was getting at. What I really wanted was N+B and a couple of series combinations. Would it be feasible?

I'm not too sure how the series sounds will come out, but I hope it would be good. It's nice to experiment with the possibilities of the guitar anyway.

For this: guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/7117/strat-ssm3-series-parallel-switch how would you implement the rotary instead of the toggle? For that, would I need a series blend pot aswell?

"What chinggy wants(sans phase)is essentially an "all-every" axe, minus the all-series N*M*B (not a big omission, AFAIAC)" Haha, yes, I am trying to get to that

Thankyou everyone for the responses and the warm welcome!

[JohnH]

Jan 17, 2014 5:30:38 GMT -5 chinggy said:

What I really wanted was N+B and a couple of series combinations. Would it be feasible?

Yes it would, and that is exactly what my scheme is intended for. Instead of the extra rotary switch or toggle switch, you could do it with a push/pull pot with same wiring as the diagram - the toggle switch would become the push/pull switch. Or if you do want a rotary, then you wouldn't need an extra pot except that the series fading wouldn't happen, but you'd get all the sounds as listed in my post above.

[newey]

Chinggy-

The point of this little side-discussion between sg, ash and I is that I suggested putting the bridge is series with the 5-way. That will apparently result in a dead spot at Position 2 when you have the rotary set to series.

John's suggestion is instead to put the mid pup in series instead. I think this may avoid the problem. We'll probably have to work up a diagram to be able to trace the signal path to be sure.

But basically, what you will be doing is using JohnH's SSM-3 scheme for one position of the rotary. The DPDT toggle switch of that diagram will need to be translated onto 2 poles of the rotary switch. Another pole of the rotary will be used to turn the neck pickup "on" at all times, giving you the parallel selections you want. The 4th pole bypasses the rotary to the 5-way.

This will need to be drawn up; the mental gymnastics you'd do trying to transpose the SSM-3 diagram in your head are simply too much. It will probably be several days until one of us can put something together for you, or you could try your hand at it and we'll check your work.

John is a big fan of the series blend pot, as he outlines in his SSM-3 post. But it could be omitted if desired. This is not a specialized pot, it's just a regular pot that has been "repurposed". You could use the second tone pot on your Strat for this and make the other tone into a master tone, as John shows it.

[chinggy]

Firstly, would putting 2 SC's in series end up sound good or just a complete muddy mess? 

Jan 17, 2014 6:56:23 GMT -5 newey said:

But basically, what you will be doing is using JohnH's SSM-3 scheme for one position of the rotary. The DPDT toggle switch of that diagram will need to be translated onto 2 poles of the rotary switch. Another pole of the rotary will be used to turn the neck pickup "on" at all times, giving you the parallel selections you want. The 4th pole bypasses the rotary to the 5-way.

Yes, that is confusing, but I really like the idea! Yes, could you please draw up the diagram? It'd be greatly appreciated

Jan 17, 2014 6:55:45 GMT -5 JohnH said:

Yes it would, and that is exactly what my scheme is intended for. Instead of the extra rotary switch or toggle switch, you could do it with a push/pull pot with same wiring as the diagram - the toggle switch would become the push/pull switch. Or if you do want a rotary, then you wouldn't need an extra pot except that the series fading wouldn't happen, but you'd get all the sounds as listed in my post above.

I'm not so sure I need a blender, but without a blender, would I still get N+B by itself?

Jan 17, 2014 6:56:23 GMT -5 newey said:

John is a big fan of the series blend pot, as he outlines in his SSM-3 post. But it could be omitted if desired. This is not a specialized pot, it's just a regular pot that has been "repurposed". You could use the second tone pot on your Strat for this and make the other tone into a master tone, as John shows it.

Thanks for clearing that up Obviously, the more PU combinations, the better (but without OOP) but the main combinations are stock, N+B, N*M and M*B, just to clear it up a bit.

Thanks all!

[chinggy]

Actually, I know I'm asking too much, but is it possible that there is: Stock Strat positions, N+B parallel, N*B and M*B but instead of a rotary switch, push/pull's are used instead, one to put bridge on in series, and one to put bridge on parallel?

So if I pull one pot to put the bridge in series, I would end up with N*B and M*B and if I pull the other one, I would end up with N+B and N+M+B? Is this at all possible? (I sure hope it is)

Maybe this can be implemented on a rotary switch if it is simpler for position one stock configuration, position two add bridge in series and position three add bridge in parallel with a master tone and master volume so it would still look stock?

For simplicity's sake(idk)...? Hope you can look into this.

Thankyou

[JohnH]

The SSM3, as drawn, needs the blend control in order to fade down the middle pickup and convert (N+B)*M, into N+B. Its true that I am an enthusiastic proponent of such series-fade knobs! Just waiting until the rest of the world finds out how cool they really are...

But if its done with the rotary, then the extra third position, in which B is forced on with the standard 5 settings, will give B+N and also B+M+N, and the fade control is then not needed to get N+B

Your latest idea is also possible. It would be very much looking a bit like this, which is a classic design by the founder of the original Guitarnuts, John Atchley:

Strat-lovers Strat

That one has a phase switch, but it could be converted to being a bridge on switch instead. A key question is what happens when you pull both a bridge on switch and a bridge series switch? In this case it would tend to create B only, in all 5 positions. I think that's not too bad.

You asked if series settings are muddy? They can be, or they can be powerful and awesome. To achieve awesomeness, the following can help to cut through potential mud:

1. Use fairly low output single coils, ie 'vintage' output say 5.5k'ish, rather than very hot singles
2. Use 500k pots, or better, use a no-load tone pot (for all modes or just series)
3. Use not too long guitar cables, ie 10' rather than 20', then into an amp or a buffered pedal (like a Boss of some kind)
4. Have a control that partly bypasses one coil - that's what the series fader does
5. Use a capacitor to partly bypass one coil - can be done as part of a tone control
6. Use an active buffer inside the guitar

you don't need all of those at once! The two Strats that I've wired recently have 6k to 6.5k singles, 250k volume pots, 500k or no-load tone pots, series fader, and I use 10' cords.  

 
 

[chinggy]

So now the new rotary design/wiring would be that: 
Position 1: Stock Settings
Position 2: Bridge forced parallel
Position 3: Bridge forced series

But using 2 push pull's means that you get: in/in, in/out, out/in, out/out which is four options. This is where a rotary may seem more appropriate as it has the three thing's (like 3 positions) needed and no more for a 3P4T. Is it possible you help me with a schematic as I have basic electronic understandings?

Thanks for the replies

Chinggy

[JohnH]

Ok, Ill sketch one.
J

[chinggy]

Thanks

[JohnH]

Here it is, and it didn't turn out to be too complicated:



Only half of the rotary is used.

I've shown treble bleed on the volume pot, to keep highs clear as you roll down. Use a 1nF cap and 150k resistor for a 500k pot, or 120k for a 250k pot.

You could stick with the usual Middle pup being reverde wound. or consider swapping that to B, to get more hum-cancelling settings.

I suggest a 250k no-load pot for the tone pot, but 500k is OK and 250k will work at the expense of a bit of treble in series modes. Tone cap is your choice, I'd use 0.022uF.

With the rest of the switch spare, you can think of using it for other things, say if you wanted to change the tone cap, or cut out the tone control in different modes.

cheers
John

[chinggy]

Jan 18, 2014 15:18:04 GMT -5 JohnH said:

Here it is, and it didn't turn out to be too complicated:



Only half of the rotary is used.

I've shown treble bleed on the volume pot, to keep highs clear as you roll down. Use a 1nF cap and 150k resistor for a 500k pot, or 120k for a 250k pot.

You could stick with the usual Middle pup being reverde wound. or consider swapping that to B, to get more hum-cancelling settings.

I suggest a 250k no-load pot for the tone pot, but 500k is OK and 250k will work at the expense of a bit of treble in series modes. Tone cap is your choice, I'd use 0.022uF.

With the rest of the switch spare, you can think of using it for other things, say if you wanted to change the tone cap, or cut out the tone control in different modes.

cheers
John

Woooww, thanks a lot mate I really appreciate it.

Chinggy

[JohnH]

I hope it works out! be sure to let us know what you think about the new sounds.

cheers
John

[chinggy]

Jan 20, 2014 2:56:47 GMT -5 JohnH said:

I hope it works out! be sure to let us know what you think about the new sounds.

cheers
John

I am actually broke at the moment and I was planning to do it when I get new pickups from GFS, a new soldering iron, new pick guard and rotary switches...after I've made it I'll post some pics