Switches: poles, throws, etc.

[Mini-Strat_Maine]

In spite of having read Wolf's excellent tutorial on switches (www.1728.com/project2.htm), I'm still somewhat confused about what's what.

While looking at one possible source of various switches, I found guitarelectronics.zoovy.com/category/wiringresources.1wiringdiagrams.zminiswitchusage.
Starting with the top left of the chart, I can't see how an "ON/ON (single pole)" could function as a "Pickup On / Off (kill switch)." Or is the "other ON position" shorting the pickup to kill it?
For the list on the right side of that row, I can kinda grasp how the center OFF position might be rigged to "default" to both signal sources vs. "isolating" one or the other, but I can't figure out how a single-pole does all of that.

I'm actually still trying to decide just what switches I want to use on my new "Magic Bullet" project, and I'm trying to make intelligent choices before I even start unwinding the strings to get inside it.

Could somebody enlighten me on this stuff?
Thanks.

--
Doug C.

[UnklMickey]

oh my!

there's a lot that could be said here, but i'll try to keep it simple.

when pickups (or individual coils of pickups) are in parallel, to "kill" one, you need to disconnect it. you don't want to short it, because that would also short the other pickup.

when pickups are in series, you COULD short it and that would bypass it. but i prefer to bypass it without shorting it. that requires using the pole connected to the output so that the signal is routed through the pickup by one throw or around it by the other.

so for a parallel combination an ON-OFF-ON type will give you A-nothing-B.

to get A-both-B you need an ON-ON-ON type, and it can be as simple as a spdt.


what is the "Magic Bullet"?

[Mini-Strat_Maine]

unklmickey said:

oh my!

there's a lot that could be said here, but i'll try to keep it simple.

I appreciate that. Maybe I'm becoming an example of what I've been telling my stepsons all these years: too much loud music will turn yer brain to tapioca. ;D

when pickups (or individual coils of pickups) are in parallel, to "kill" one, you need to disconnect it. you don't want to short it, because that would also short the other pickup.

Okay so far . . .

when pickups are in series, you COULD short it and that would bypass it. but i prefer to bypass it without shorting it. that requires using the pole connected to the output so that the signal is routed through the pickup by one throw or around it by the other.

This part also makes perfect sense to me, even if I couldn't have come up with that on my own.

so for a parallel combination an ON-OFF-ON type will give you A-nothing-B.

to get A-both-B you need an ON-ON-ON type, and it can be as simple as a spdt.

I guess I've got the part about N/N+B/B needing any/all positions to be ONs. It's all them poles and throws and such that I'm still going stuck on, e.g. why it could be an SPDT as well as a DPDT. And how does what that chart calls an "ON/ON" switch perform what I'd call an "on/off" function, e.g. killing a pickup? In other words, I regard an on/on as "A OR B" and an on/off as "A/NOT A." (Yathink I'm being terminally anal about this? )

what is the "Magic Bullet"?

Oh, just the name I came up with for that single-humbucker, volume-control-only Squier Bullet I bought recently. I won the eBay auction for that DiMarzio X2N I asked about in Pickups, the one with the wires cut to 2" or so. That'll go in the Bullet, along with some other refinements like series/parallel/coil cut, treble retainer, etc.
I'm still mulling over how serious I want to get with tone variation options and so on.

[UnklMickey]

ministratmaine said:

oh I guess I've got the part about N/N+B/B needing any/all positions to be ONs. It's all them poles and throws and such that I'm still going stuck on, e.g. why it could be an SPDT as well as a DPDT. And how does what that chart calls an "ON/ON" switch perform what I'd call an "on/off" function, e.g. killing a pickup? In other words, I regard an on/on as "A OR B" and an on/off as "A/NOT A." (Yathink I'm being terminally anal about this? )
...

no, i don't think that. it's just how you're looking at it.

just try to think about it as what the switch CAN do, compared to what you will be employing it to do.

you CAN use a SPDT ON-ON to select A or B. but it you only connect the output to the pole, and A to one throw, leaving the other throw not connected, then indeed you do have an ON-OFF switch. (you're only employing it as a SPST)

but they wouldn't call it that, 'cause it can do more.

the only switch they would call an ON-OFF would be a (any number)PST but why stock SPST, SPDT, DPST, and DPDT 2-position switches when it's simpler (and cheaper when you buy in bulk) to buy DPDTs and just employ them to do the lesser functions.

of course, you'll still need 3-position switches for some functions, so you still won't be able to use just one type of switch. but again, i would only buy DPDTs in these types (ON-OFF-ON and ON-ON-ON) and use them even if i needed SPDTs.

in some circumstances you may need 3PDT OR 4PDT switches, but you'll probably use them seldom enough that you'll buy them as needed.

if there's little or no difference in the price, 4PDT can be used in place of 3PDT, as long as they can fit it the allotted space.

[Mini-Strat_Maine]

Okay, now it's making more sense. (We need a smilie for "Light dawns on Marblehead." )
Thanks much for the education, UnklMickey, and for replying so quickly.

[UnklMickey]

no worries.

maybe a smilie for time to go, see y'all tomorrow too.


"unklmickey has left the building"

[Mustang]

UNKL,
Do you think some of the confusion may be 'self inflicted'. Do you really think that "ON-ON-ON" or "ON-OFF-ON" selector swithes can be correctly called 2PDT, 3PDT, etc. In my feeble mind, I like to think of the switch like a knife-blade switch. The 'pole' is the connection point on the hinge side of the switch. Whether it is a single 'ST' or double 'DT' throw, has to do with how many 'jaws' there are to connect the blade to. It seems the "On-On-On" type switches would be more correctly called 3 position switches. I always think of 'toggle' switches when I think of SPST, DPST, SPDT, etc.

What do you think?

[Mini-Strat_Maine]

mustang said:

UNKL,
Do you think some of the confusion may be 'self inflicted'. Do you really think that "ON-ON-ON" or "ON-OFF-ON" selector swithes can be correctly called 2PDT, 3PDT, etc. In my feeble mind,

Hmm. You, too, eh? Yathink it's from being exposed to all those electrosonic rays coming off our guitars? ;D

I like to think of the switch like a knife-blade switch. The 'pole' is the connection point on the hinge side of the switch. Whether it is a single 'ST' or double 'DT' throw, has to do with how many 'jaws' there are to connect the blade to.

I like that explanation.

It seems the "On-On-On" type switches would be more correctly called 3 position switches. I always think of 'toggle' switches when I think of SPST, DPST, SPDT, etc.

Yeah, but . . .
Even though we may not deal with them as much in the Wild World of Guitar Modding, there are all those push/pull, push/push, rocker, rotary, slide, and whatever switches out there, too.
We may have gotten into thinking a "toggle" is just an on-off, maybe because that's the common use of the term in the computer world. IOW, an "either/or" setup. Ones and zeroes and all that. I think of a toggle switch as just something with a bat- or lever-type handle (actuator).
I don't know if you're including on-off-on in the above, and just used on-on-on as your example, but the center-off variety is also "three-position." (I just got a flash of lyric from the Level 42 song, "Something About You": "they add to your confusion." Change "these changing years" to something about switches, and we could have a hit.)

In an aside, I'm looking at three Ads by Google at the top of the page for Corvette parts. My guitar instructor has a '74 'Vette; he agrees with me that it's a fersure "mid-life-crisismobile." I guess my MLC is wanting to be a rock star. (Minus the big hair and Spandex, though.) ;D ;D ;D

[wolf]

Mini-Strat_Maine
Thanks for the praise about my switch tutorial.

unklmickey you stated:
it's simpler (and cheaper when you buy in bulk) to buy DPDTs and just employ them to do the lesser functions.


Yes, from an electrical perspective that is true. However, from a mechanical perspective there is a subtle but nonetheless noticeable difference in a switch's "feel". I like the "action" of a switch to be as smooth and effortless as possible. Well, maybe that's just me.

You also mentioned (regarding 3PDT vs 4PDT switches) that size considerations can be a factor in choosing a switch. As you probably know, I think it is a factor in all types of switches.

[UnklMickey]

mustang said:

UNKL,
Do you think some of the confusion may be 'self inflicted'. Do you really think that "ON-ON-ON" or "ON-OFF-ON" selector swithes can be correctly called 2PDT, 3PDT, etc. In my feeble mind, I like to think of the switch like a knife-blade switch. The 'pole' is the connection point on the hinge side of the switch. Whether it is a single 'ST' or double 'DT' throw, has to do with how many 'jaws' there are to connect the blade to. It seems the "On-On-On" type switches would be more correctly called 3 position switches. I always think of 'toggle' switches when I think of SPST, DPST, SPDT, etc.

What do you think?

what do i think?

i think any explanation that gets the point across, in a way that the questioner can understand is good.

if it's concise, great.

if it's universally true. perfect.


comparing toggles to knife switches is great for 2-position switches.

even with ON-OFF-ON 3-position type, it's easy to wrap your mind around the concept of the blade stopping at vertical (center off).

but it gets difficult to draw an analogy to the center position of a ON-ON-ON switch, where BOTH throws are connected.

so, the knife switch view is great, but not perfect.



right or wrong, the convention of calling these 3-position switches "toggle", has already been established.

so add that to the list of "wobbly" terms, along with tremolo arm and TAP (instead of coil-split).


Wolf,

i can certainly feel an unwelcome difference between a well made mini-toggle an a poorly made one.

but the difference between a well made DPDT and a well made SPST is not objectionable.

in fact, i'd probably want ALL the switches to feel the SAME. rather than having wonderfully feeling SPSTs right next to good feeling DPDTs.

that is of course if i had "golden fingers" (i don't).

and i probably couldn't tell if there was a PEA under my mattress (although, i'm sure i could tell if there was PEE on my mattress!)


Doug,

your guitar instructor has got me beat.

my MLCmobile is a '89 Mustang LX-5.0 ragtop.

too old to be fresh, not nearly old enough to be interesting, won't turn heads like that 'Vette. but real pleasant to drive on a summer night, with your hair in the breeze.

[Mini-Strat_Maine]

unklmickey said:

mustang said:

so add that to the list of "wobbly" terms, along with tremolo arm and TAP (instead of coil-split).

Recently I ran across something, I think in the book Guitar Electronics for Musicians (recommended by and purchased from Stew-Mac), about tapped pickups. This seemed to involve putting the tap halfway along the coil of a singlecoil. I haven't read up on it much, and don't see an awful lot of utility to it anyway. I'll probably just continue using "cut" or "split" for anything involving one or the other side of a humbucker.

your guitar instructor has got me beat.

my MLCmobile is a '89 Mustang LX-5.0 ragtop.

Nice enough, even if not a "classic" 'Stang.

too old to be fresh, not nearly old enough to be interesting, won't turn heads like that 'Vette. but real pleasant to drive on a summer night, with your hair in the breeze.

Absolutely. And it's nice to have some hair for the breeze, too. ;D