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Post by rabidgerry on Jun 30, 2015 15:53:52 GMT -5
Hi all I have a problem with quite a collectible guitar. It's a 1989 silver series Squier Stratocaster.
I am basically trying to find out if the neck is screwed beyond fixing.
I have contacted one luthier already and he's talking about swapping the neck which to me is BS because that is something I could do myself. He also didn't listen to what I said fully which makes me think he doesn't think I know what I'm talking about. Anyways.............
Basically the issue is, the truss rod will not loosen anymore, it's as loose as it will go. And I cannot get any relief in the neck. It is dead straight. Dead!! No bend backwards nothing like that, just straight. Zero relief is the issue and I cannot get anymore since the rod is as loose as it will go.
Can this be fixed or the neck screwed?
The guy I was talking to actually suggested putting a Chinese neck on there so he totally seemed to have no regard for the vintage nature of the axe. I was quite insulted by that actually lol.
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Post by JohnH on Jun 30, 2015 16:49:22 GMT -5
My LP was like that when I got it. It came to me with strings loosened and was so back-bowed that even with rod fully loosened the strings fretting out on open strings. I probably should have returned ir but but I liked it otherwise. I was able to get it right by changing from 9-42 up to a mixed 10-52 set. The neck has slowly returned over a few years and now its fine with 10-46 which is my current preference.
Wood 'creeps', meaning it continues to slowly deform over time in response to changes in load. So giving it some controlled extra string tension, and then plenty of time may fix it. Maybe go up a string size and let it be stored tuned up an extra semitone. At least in your case, you currently have it straight and all you need is a tad of extra relief!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2015 1:23:01 GMT -5
^^^ yup
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Post by rabidgerry on Jul 1, 2015 4:11:55 GMT -5
My LP was like that when I got it. It came to me with strings loosened and was so back-bowed that even with rod fully loosened the strings fretting out on open strings. I probably should have returned ir but but I liked it otherwise. I was able to get it right by changing from 9-42 up to a mixed 10-52 set. The neck has slowly returned over a few years and now its fine with 10-46 which is my current preference. Wood 'creeps', meaning it continues to slowly deform over time in response to changes in load. So giving it some controlled extra string tension, and then plenty of time may fix it. Maybe go up a string size and let it be stored tuned up an extra semitone. At least in your case, you currently have it straight and all you need is a tad of extra relief! Hi John, yeah I actually read that as well that I could simply fix it with more tension. The axe came with 9's. It had been hung up on a wall for years apparently and never played and then the neck obviously straightened. And this was obviously happened whoile the rod was already pretty slack, so when I slackened it more nothing happened it I put 10's on there because that is what I play anyways but I got no extra relief what so ever. I don't really want to to like 10 - 52's, it might break my fingers off!! Is there not something a luthier could do, like hold the neck with some pressure on it to force it forward? Isn't there a truss rod also that can bend the opposite way as a regular rod? May be I should just try the heavier strings. The guy I was talking to is talking about getting a new rod now, but the rod inside has nothing wrong with it because it tightens fine to reduce relief, it just can't slacken anymore.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2015 4:30:26 GMT -5
put some 11's in there, it will help working out your fingers as well. If you get no relief with the 11's, then obviously something is wrong.
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Post by sumgai on Jul 1, 2015 12:14:20 GMT -5
rg, Long time since we've conversed - lost any good mail lately? I'm mostly in agreement with the above sentiments. However, wood does take time to re-shape itself, given certain stresses put upon it. In this case, I think greekdude's estimate of using 11's is good, but any changes won't occur overnight. As John said, it may take several months (seasons, really), to see what happens. I have another potential "speed-it-up" solution.... In the luthier business, we have a device known as a "neck heater". It's meant to cure extreme cases of bent necks, whether bowed, back-bowed, twisted, or what have you. An image would be appropriate just about now: (That image comes from luthier.net, and the page in question is www.luthier.net/neck.html.) Sadly, these things cost a pretty penny, so.... The whole idea is to provide a heat source uniformly over the entire neck. With the aid of clamps and shims as appropriate, most neck problems can be solved with a tool like this. But who wants to spend that kind of money? Enter the father of invention! Why not mount a thick piece of steel in the same manner as shown in the image, and apply a standard iron to the exposed side of it? If you're careful to keep the heat down (irons can run to more than 1,000 watts!), the steel bar should be able to distribute the heat over a large enough area to do some good. Obviously you're going to insert a shim or two to obtain the desired starting point of neck bow. And not to drive it home to the point of distraction, but this operation should require about the same amount of time as watching paint dry. IOW, put a count-down timer (shuts off in so many hours) on the iron's power cord. I'd start with two hours of minimal heat, and then remove the device. Check the neck the next day for any changes, having left it to just lay there on the bench overnight. In particular don't string it up or anything. If it's still dead straight, then do the heat thing again, only for four hours. The key here is, minimal heat over long periods will do the job. Even after only a day or two, any changes should be evident. All we're really doing is speeding up Mother Nature's seasonal affect on wood. By that I mean, don't over do the heat temperature - keep it as low as possible, or the neck will show signs of extreme stress. Scorch marks mean it's too late, sorry to say. But worse, even if nothing else shows, a subtle deterioration of the glue between the neck and the fingerboard will not show up until you're playing out one night, at a favorite pub, when.... PRESTO! Instant embarassment, as the fingerboard/frets just sort of slide right out from under your fingers. Or almost as bad, everything starts rattling in horrible resonance with whatever note you're playing - I've seen that one too. Sigh. It's not a pretty picture, picking up the pieces, let me tell you. Keep pluggin away, but remember - whenever you're working with wood, slow and steady is the Order of the Day. HTH sumgai
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Post by JohnH on Jul 2, 2015 3:13:18 GMT -5
How about strapping the neck to the side of a 2x4, shimmed to induce a bend, then wrapping it all up in an electric blanket set low. It would save having to borrow your neighbours plasma cutter to cut a suitable steel piece.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2015 3:36:08 GMT -5
I'd like to ask, wouldn't all this press frets too deep, potentially resulting in the need for a fret leveling/dressing or even refret job? Wouldn't ideally fretboard be removed before, neck evaluated and then bowed via the steel bar method, fretboard re-glued, or even just re-glue the fretboard creating a slight additional tension to achieve the desired straightness ?
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Post by rabidgerry on Jul 2, 2015 8:21:13 GMT -5
Well, I got talking with the Luthier guy again. And he finally realised what a ludicrous thing it was to suggest a new neck when the old one could be fixed.
I think he misunderstood the situtation.
Anyways Sumgai has nailed it. Basicaly reshaping is going to be needed. The guy is going to do this for me because it's something I could never myself.
He knew exactly the right process with heat and clamps etc on how to reshape. This made me more confident. The downside. He is off on holiday for a month!!
I really appreciate everyones suggestions here. The strings thing to me is pointless. It's not permanent and I'd not be able to play guitar the way I wanted.
I'll take some pics of it now and hopefully when it is fixed.
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Post by sumgai on Jul 2, 2015 12:07:50 GMT -5
gd, In all my experience as a journeyman luthier, I've never seen frets go out of position due to heat from one of these things. Of course, that's not to say that it couldn't happen, anything's possible when you're working with wood, but if due and proper caution is used, there shouldn't be any issues concerning the frets. As far as re-gluing the fretboard "with a slight additional tension to achieve the desired straightness", oh boy. Besides the obvious question of how you're going to bend one piece of wood without affecting the other, as you glue them together.... you are now forcing a tension between the two pieces across a mating surface. I don't know of any glue that will withstand that kind of force, lateral to its natural line of adhesion, for a substantial period of time. Sooner or later, Mother Nature is gonna win that particular battle. EDIT: Now that I think more on it.... if this were a viable idea, then don't you think it would be cheaper than using a steel rod, and therefore, wouldn't guitar companies just do this instead of a truss rod? A good question, but Physics is gonna ruin your day.
gerry, Yes, this is best done by a professional, though I never had a "teacher" - I became a "professional" the hard way; trial and error... strong emphasis on the latter! ;D HTH sumgai
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2015 14:48:35 GMT -5
Hey another idea, is this a removable truss rod? One of my (also asian) guitars from this era (1989) has a (double action mind you) removable truss rod. If your is removable all you have to do is install a double action one, or install the one you have up-side down, and thus make it work on the opposite direction.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2015 14:51:13 GMT -5
EDIT: Now that I think more on it.... if this were a viable idea, then don't you think it would be cheaper than using a steel rod, and therefore, wouldn't guitar companies just do this instead of a truss rod? SG, still companies would have to cover all of the buyer's future configurations with strings/setup, etc, so truss rods would still be needed. Or I missed smth!
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Post by sumgai on Jul 2, 2015 23:30:42 GMT -5
gd,
I was being a bit facetious, meaning that my statements were taken to an extreme. Yes, there are many possible "final" setups, with so many variables on the way to getting there, that it would make sense to include an adjustable rod of some sort.
sumgai
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Post by blademaster2 on Aug 26, 2015 16:22:35 GMT -5
Hi all,
I am new to this site so please bear with me if I am saying anything redundant.
I have built three guitars (solidbody electric) and for each neck I actually did clamp the fingerboard onto the neck during gluing using a form in front of the neck that placed a slight forward bow onto it as the glue set. After the glue dried fully it actually settled backward slightly, and then I used the truss rod to bring it back to the amount of relief I needed. It meant that the rod has a two-way adjustment. All three of these guitars are now more than 25 years old and they all play very well, so it seems to have worked for me.
Similarly, if a neck has warped backward I have heard that the heated press mentioned earlier will accomplish essentially the same thing that I did when building my necks and provide the desired two-way adjustment again.
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Post by newey on Aug 26, 2015 20:32:45 GMT -5
blademaster2-
Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!
And thanks for the input!
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