sebaileyus
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Post by sebaileyus on Oct 3, 2016 16:03:28 GMT -5
Hi guys I've been trying to puzzle this out but I am not an electronics man, and I find working out wiring diagrams very difficult. I'm hoping one of the kind experts here will drop a knowledge bomb on me. (Don't worry about complexity in a diagram, I am an excellent solderer when I have a guide!) I'm looking for an upgrade on the jimmy page wiring, incorporating spin and split wiring and the ability to combine any of the single coils from each humbucker. So here's what I want: Pot 1, master volume - DPDT 1, reverse phase Pot 2, master tone - DPDT 2, master series/parallel between Hbuckers (not between coils on a humbucker) Pot 3, shut off neck inner coil - DPDT 3, coil tap neck outer coil Pot 4, shut of bridge inner coil - DPDT 4,coil tap bridge outer coil. I'm also interested if anyone has any similar but "better" ideas that use 4 DPDT pots to get lots of tones please don't recommend SD triple shots, I have them on another guitar, this time I wanted to try the JP thing but with some improvements. Cheers Seb
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Post by reTrEaD on Oct 3, 2016 18:33:45 GMT -5
Hello and welcome to GuitarNutz 2. You might want to take a look at this thread: guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/3159/jhs-jimmy-pageJohn's variant on the JP scheme has a few benefits. Regardless of how you proceed, I feel certain you want to incorporate the way he does the system-series switch. It's much better than the original Gibson JP. I'm not quite certain about your wording in description of pot 3 and pot 4. Does that mean you'd want the pot to gradually fade out the inner coil, eventually ending up with just the outer coil? Then pulling the knob up would switch off the outer coil, leaving just the inner coil?
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sebaileyus
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Post by sebaileyus on Oct 4, 2016 2:10:18 GMT -5
Thanks for getting back, I had a look at that wiring and it doesn't do what I want. I specifically want the master vol/master tone pots and the ability to turn off any of the coils using a switch or pot. RE phrasing, yes you are correct, I want to pot to control the volume of 1 coil and the DPDT switch on that pot to cut the other coil of the same humbucker, repeated for both pickups.
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Post by newey on Oct 4, 2016 7:01:48 GMT -5
You might want to consider having one push/pull pot operate the opposite of the other so as to maximize hum cancellation. This will depend upon the orientation of your pickup coils, they mat be OK "as is". Does the pair of both outer coils include one slug coil and one screw coil? We can still use JohnH's JP diagram as a starting point. The system series switch will be the same, the wiring to the 3-way switch is the same. Each pickup will get a "module" of a P/P which will be "first in line" after the pickup. As for a complete diagram, that may take a few days. But one of us will get something posted for you if you can be a bit patient.
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sebaileyus
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Post by sebaileyus on Oct 4, 2016 8:16:02 GMT -5
You might want to consider having one push/pull pot operate the opposite of the other so as to maximize hum cancellation. This will depend upon the orientation of your pickup coils, they mat be OK "as is". Does the pair of both outer coils include one slug coil and one screw coil? We can still use JohnH's JP diagram as a starting point. The system series switch will be the same, the wiring to the 3-way switch is the same. Each pickup will get a "module" of a P/P which will be "first in line" after the pickup. As for a complete diagram, that may take a few days. But one of us will get something posted for you if you can be a bit patient. If it makes more sense to go top/bottom instead of outer/inner, then that's fine by me it'll be a pair of Seymour Duncan's, probably an Sh5 and Sh6. If that's the case, I'd like the pot to adjust the nearest-to-neck coil, and the DPDT cut the lower, bridge-wards coil. (So neck screw + bridge slug on pots, neck slug and bridge screw on switch) Cheers
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Post by reTrEaD on Oct 4, 2016 11:02:58 GMT -5
Newey, I think I'll let you drive this discussion. I'll just make some comments and let you take it from there. The choice to use John's schematic as a launching pad seems good. Just move the volume and tone to the output, dump the 68k resistors, and the global switching should be good to go. Build on that basic platform. I reckon this will be a very long discussion. Many choices to be made that interact with each other. You might want to consider having one push/pull pot operate the opposite of the other so as to maximize hum cancellation. Hum-canceling will be an elusive bird. If both pots cut to leave the slug coils present and the switches cut to leave the screw coils presents, you would have hum-canceling in either "mix not match" of one pot and one switch. Turn both pots to minimum and you won't have hum-canceling. Pull both switches and you won't have hum-canceling. Restack one pickup and you have the opposite. Either mix of one pot and one switch doesn't hum-cancel. Both pots at minimum does hum-cancel. Both switches pulled does hum-cancel. The switches should have priority over the pots. Pull the knob and the pot has no effect. -------- The phase switch in John's schematic is on the Bridge pickup. But it could just as easily be on the Neck pickup. Worth noting is that which Bridge coil selected when split, changes when the phase switch is pulled. This maintains hum-canceling regardless of in-phase or out-of-phase, when the Neck is split. In that circuit, only one neck coil (blue) is ever present when split. The neck (red) isn't available as a single coil. But the circuit you're building would have one coil of the Neck present if the pot is at minimum and the other coil of the Neck present if the knob is pulled. Using John's method of switching coils at the Bridge when out of phase would maintain whatever hum-canceling situation you have. So many choices . . .
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Post by newey on Oct 5, 2016 5:20:24 GMT -5
RT- I appreciate any input/help you can give. As I said, it may be a while before I can work up a diagram, so if anyone else wants to jump in here, feel free.
And, sebaileyus-
I would appreciate it if you would re-title your thread to something more descriptive than "help please". Part of the value of the site is that others can come along and browse for questions or situations similar to theirs. But that requires a thread title at least somewhat reflective of the topic discussed there. You can do so by editing your original post.
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Post by reTrEaD on Oct 5, 2016 13:00:12 GMT -5
sebaileyus
I see you've changed your thread title at Newey's recommendation. The title does a fine job of letting anyone perusing the forum know what to expect within.
Before we move forward to breaking the wiring down to sections, let's talk a bit about overall strategy.
I would think the most useful tones when combining two singles would be when inner coils are used together and when outer coils are used together. I would suggest a strategy that makes use of hum-canceling when those pairs are selected and are in-phase. That means one screw coil and one slug coil in each of those pairs.
We usually see HBs oriented so the screw coil of the bridge pickup is closest to the bridge and the screw coil of the neck pickup is closest to the neck. This doesn't fit the strategy.
Would you be okay with orienting your pickups with the screw coils of both pickups in the same direction? Either both closest to the bridge or both closest to the neck? If so, which would you prefer, screws toward neck or screws toward bridge?
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sebaileyus
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Post by sebaileyus on Oct 5, 2016 15:30:17 GMT -5
Thanks for getting back dude, I would prefer to have them in the usual orientation, but I could even go get a set of bare knuckle war pigs or something with 12 hex poles if that worked ?
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Post by reTrEaD on Oct 6, 2016 9:15:49 GMT -5
Seb, you'll get all the same combinations of two singles regardless of how we approach this. It's just a question of where hum-cancelling occurs and where it doesn't.
With the common orientation of two HBs, the magnetic polarities look like this:
South North
North South
-------------- Hum-canceling occurs when two coils of different magnetic polarity are in-phase with each other. Hum-canceling occurs when two coils of same magnetic polarity are out-of-phase with each other.
If you want hum-canceling when inners or outers are selected and in-phase, we need to have either of these maps:
South North
South North
------- or --------
North South
North South
-------------
So however you get to either of those will give you hum-cancelling in what I consider the two "money tones". But any way we go won't get you hum-cancelling in all possible combinations.
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Post by JohnH on Oct 6, 2016 15:01:11 GMT -5
I thought I would toss in a few ideas, though not wishing to confuse things: Given 2x2 coils on your humbuckers, you can pick 4 different pairs on combinations, inner, outer, bridge-side and neck-side. The greatest variations are dependent on which bridge coil is included, since the outer coil is a significant % nearer to the bridge, while both beck coils are towards the middle. This plot is a calculated prediction of overall response from those four arrangements. Its based on two PAF humbuckers, split to single coils, allowing that each coil is in a slightly different position in terms of how it picks up string vibrations: There is a useful variation between inner and outer pairs, and the others are in between. What you are proposing will give a very large number of variations of single coil pairs, within the range, then with more variants as you split the coils variably with the pots. Its all possible. But if it was mine, for the sake of my head when trying to find a tone, I would want to cut down those options to those that cover the range, with the best chance of minimizing hum. So Id suggest as follows: Master volume 500k Master tone 500k (no load, which will be important in series mode) spin a split controls for each pickup inner/outer switch phase switch system series/parallel switch The phase and inner/outer switch would always offer hum cancelling combos in phase or out of phase, assuming both pickups are fully coil split. There's one spare switch! As a separate thought, if you want inner/outer but also want hum-cancelling and also the traditional coil positions, you can open up a pickup and flip its magnet to reverse its polarity. A bit of surgery is needed though.
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Post by reTrEaD on Oct 7, 2016 11:15:07 GMT -5
But if it was mine, for the sake of my head when trying to find a tone, I would want to cut down those options to those that cover the range, with the best chance of minimizing hum. So Id suggest as follows: Master volume 500k Master tone 500k (no load, which will be important in series mode) spin a split controls for each pickup inner/outer switch phase switch system series/parallel switch The phase and inner/outer switch would always offer hum cancelling combos in phase or out of phase, assuming both pickups are fully coil split. Like this, I do. You would also get full hum-canceling if both pickups are partially but equally split. The inner/outer switch wouldn't actually be inner/outer when the phase switch is in the out-of-phase position but imho, hum-canceling is the more important goal. Could be employed to put the Neck pickup in local parallel. If right strategy is used, the Neck local S/P switch would disable the Neck's split pot when in parallel mode. Just a thought ...
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sebaileyus
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Post by sebaileyus on Oct 7, 2016 13:14:43 GMT -5
Sorry to be picky, but this is getting a little far off my original help request. If anyone develops their own variations I'd be happy for them to be shared here, but I'd like to get back to the original request first if possible Also, regarding the hum cancelling, if I do t fully wind down the spin and split pots, won't that tiny bit of output do the hum cancelling?
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Post by JohnH on Oct 7, 2016 16:03:03 GMT -5
Sorry to be picky, but this is getting a little far off my original help request. If anyone develops their own variations I'd be happy for them to be shared here, but I'd like to get back to the original request first if possible Also, regarding the hum cancelling, if I do t fully wind down the spin and split pots, won't that tiny bit of output do the hum cancelling? I think we are just trying to respond to your request: To make sure that you have all the ideas to be sure of what you want. It seems that you are there already, so you should build what you worked out. Once a spin-a split moves away from the full 2-coil combination, hum comes back quite quickly, with just a small reduction from the single-coil hum (or no reduction in the 50% of cases that will not be hum cancelling). Not a huge problem though unless at high gain.
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sebaileyus
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Post by sebaileyus on Oct 9, 2016 8:11:46 GMT -5
Thanks for the efforts, and I look forward To seeing the wiring diagrams!
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sebaileyus
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Post by sebaileyus on Nov 8, 2016 10:28:08 GMT -5
Sorry but BUMP! , has anyone manages to get a wiring diagram sorted for any of these ideas?
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Post by JohnH on Nov 8, 2016 14:16:20 GMT -5
Sorry but BUMP! , has anyone manages to get a wiring diagram sorted for any of these ideas? Not me sorry. You were very firm on what you want, so unless it interests somebody else enough for them to spend a few hours on it and draw exactly that, you may be better off figuring out how to draw it up your self and then we will help to review it.
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