HH 3 way selector/ coil splits / series parallel switch

[kaustinwright]

Hello all!
I have a project guitar I am trying to use as my backup on stage.

My only issue is that it has limited sounds with the 2 humbuckers.

It is an Ibanez S series (HH) with a 3 way blade switch, and modified to have 2 push pulls on each volume for coil splitting, and one master tone. I also have a separate switch to control series/parallel wiring.

I have tried wiring it several times already and just can't get it right.

On the 3 way switch:
Pos1: bridge humbucker
Pos2: bridge+neck
Pos3: Neck humbucker

The push/pull on each volume coil splits the respective pickup.

The extra dpdt switch controls ser/par

Any help would be awesome,
Thank you! 🎸

[kaustinwright]

I know it will be a combination of these 2 diagrams,  but I'm not sure how to do it exactly. 

Also,  I will be using an YM30 Japanese switch. 

Attachments:

[newey]

KW-

Between the two diagrams, you have all the info you need to do this. Start with the Guitar Electronics diagram, showing the push/pulls. You will basically be using this entire diagram except for the 5-way switch. Draw a circle around that switch and remove it, either mentally or by actually erasing it from the diagram. Then, find the two wires that come out of the P/Ps and which were wired to the lever switch shown in the diagram. These two wires will be wired as the inputs to your series/parallel switch. You will also need to move one pickups' ground wire to that switch as shown.

The wires coming out of the series/parallel switch then connect to your 3-way switch, but you have to translate the wiring a bit as per the Y-30 switch diagram. 00 lugs will go to output, and you tone pot is wired as shown back on the Guitar electronics diagram.

It would be best if you redrew the whole thing as above, and then post it so we can check your work.

[kaustinwright]

Thank you!
I'll do that asap.

[kaustinwright]

How's that? 

Attachments:

[kaustinwright]

Excuse the ground on the tone pot.
It should be after the cap

[axedoctor]

that should do it ... solder away

[newey]

You show the neck pickup as having a ground connection. It is not clear whether you are showing that as a ground of the pickup's chassis or as a signal ground. If it's a chassis ground, fine, but if it's grounding the pickup's negative coil wire, it's wrong. The neck pickup finds ground only through the series/parallel switch.

Also, you are still showing the std. 3-way LP-style toggle. If you are using the Ibanez switch, you should show that in the diagram so we can check that you have properly transposed the switch wiring.

Other than that, your diagram looks fine.

[kaustinwright]

The pickups are 5 conductor so the ground to the left is the chassis ground, and on the bridge pickup the signal ground (green) is tied in to the braided shielding. Is this correct?
I'll be redrawing a diagram with Seymour Duncan colors also.

Thank you!

[kaustinwright]

So this is with the switch and the colors done correctly with Seymour Duncan code. 

I'm getting the parts in the mail tomorrow,  so I'm about ready to go. 

Thanks for all the help

Also, a quick question..
I understand the coil split on the bridge sends one of the coils signal to ground, but why does the neck split, connect to the positive lead on the pickup?

Attachments:

[axedoctor]

kw - 

the Bridge coil split selects the upper coil of its humbucker and the Neck coil split selects the lower coil of its humbucker so that when connected in parallel the combination will remain hum-canceling 

the Neck coil-split is also accomplished in a manner that maintains its floating-reference status so that it can be ground-referenced (parallel mode) at the series/parallel switch or referenced to the output of the Bridge pickup (series mode) which, as you noticed, is ground-referenced both in humbucker mode or when coil-split because it functions as the base of the two-pickup series combination

have fun and publish pix or it didn't happen



  

[kaustinwright]

Somethings not working...
The series/par switch causes all pickups to be on, and I've checked the wiring twice

[sumgai]

Feb 1, 2017 19:42:07 GMT -5 kaustinwright said:

Somethings not working...
The series/par switch causes all pickups to be on, and I've checked the wiring twice

Errr..... not to be snotty about it, but isn't that desired goal? IOW, it's supposed to have all (both) pickups on in order to be a serial connection.

Looking at your diagram, I see that both pups are on - in series - no matter where the pickup selector switch is placed.  If that's the "something's not working" that you didn't desire, then I have to ask - were you anticipating that the Ser/Par switch would be active only when the selector switch is in the center?  If so, we can do that, but the wiring diagram will need some modification.

May I suggest that you peruse the following thread thoroughly, it was made just a few months ago by our own reTrEaD.  After that, we'll still be here to answer any questions.

Shifting Gears between Series and Parallel

HTH

sumgai

[kaustinwright]

Yes, I thought that's how the switch would have worked. I would like to be able to leave the ser/par switch in either position and still have the ability to use just one pickup. Ideally it would only make a difference in the middle position, but no difference if the switch is on neck or bridge.

I'm a little lost about how to make that happen, but I will read through the thread and see if I can find anything.

Thanks for clearing that up for me, I definately wasn't specific enough in my first post

Thanks again, and any help is appreciated!

[kaustinwright]

I fear that thread did more to confuse me than clear things up.. 😕

None of the diagrams looked like the one I posted at the start of this thread, so it's throwing me off a bit.

I might be wrong, but wouldn't I have to use the other side of the 3 way switch rather than bridging the terminals so the ser/par switch is active only in the middle position?

[axedoctor]

kw - I'm kinda new here, but it seems that the preferred approach to collaborating is to guide questioners in a direction that will facilitate them discovering their desired answers, especially when it comes to establishing a wiring solution





sooo, in my view of how to solve your problem I would suggest that you focus on the fact that you want the the following pickup selections

position #1   Bridge pickup (single coil or humbucker determined by Bridge Volume push/pull switch)
position #2   series/parallel combination of Bridge & Neck pickups (created by the DPDT switch)
position #3   Neck pickup (single coil or humbucker determined by Neck Volume push/pull switch)

you can totally do this



doc



extra credit question to consider : do I really need the stand-alone Series/Parallel DPDT switch? isn't there another available option?

 

[reTrEaD]

Feb 2, 2017 1:04:12 GMT -5 axedoctor said:

kw - I'm kinda new here, but it seems that the preferred approach to collaborating is to guide questioners in a direction that will facilitate them discovering their desired answers, especially when it comes to establishing a wiring solution

It certainly is.

position #1   Bridge pickup (single coil or humbucker determined by Bridge Volume push/pull switch)
position #2   series/parallel combination of Bridge & Neck pickups (created by the DPDT switch)
position #3   Neck pickup (single coil or humbucker determined by Neck Volume push/pull switch)

you can totally do this

Anything is possible. But this isn't possible with the switches that are planned for use here. I reckon it would take five or six poles on the S/P switch to move enough connections around on this particular selector switch to make that happen.

extra credit question to consider : do I really need the stand-alone Series/Parallel DPDT switch? isn't there another available option?

Yes, there is. But that option comes with other complications. I might be wrong, but I don't believe there is a 4-position switch in the YM series. Oak-Grigsby has a four position switch for use in a Telecaster to accommodate both pickups in series as a fourth selection. It requires a greater clearance depth, and that might be a problem in this case. Some of the Ibanez S-series guitars are carved rather thin toward the edges and the selector switch isn't all that far the bottom edge.



Also, the Oak Grigsby 4-way has a 1-5/8 (41.275 mm)spacing on the mounting screws. The YM has a 41 mm spacing. That extra quarter of a millimeter doesn't seem like much, since one could easily elongate the holes on the mounting bezel. But since the screws are countersunk, things could get slightly messy.


Or maybe you had another approach in mind?

[kaustinwright]

That has been my problem with this project, I have a hole drilled for a dpdt mini toggle, and I can't use any special switches because the clearance in the cavity has already caused me to buy 3 separate switches, all of which didn't fit other than the 30

[reTrEaD]

I can empathize, K. I've worked on some guitars with thin bodies. They bring their own set of unique challenges. Perhaps Doc has a solution so let's wait for his reply. But it's fairly likely you'll need to accept the status quo.

I do see the desire to have the switching work in the way you envisioned. It makes the most sense intuitively. Unfortunately, what makes the most sense from the driver's seat is often a monumental challenge for the switching design. With a ridiculous number of poles on the S/P switch, you could get exactly what you're after with the YM. No matter how many poles on the S/P it still isn't possible with the standard Gibson toggle.

[sumgai]

I'm not sure what the problem is here.... the YM-30 can be have the two common terminals separated, so in effect, the switch is exacly the same, wiring-wise, as a standard Oak design. A clue would be to simplify asmith's efforts, posted some years ago.  (I didn't link to it, due to the complexity.)

I'll try to get back home, and back to this thread, before the end of the day.  But wives, you know how they are, amiright?

sumgai

[axedoctor]

okay ... at the risk of "revealing" the answer rather than "alluding" to it, I am in agreement with sumgai's assessment of the possibility for a simple rewiring of the 3-way switch to achieve the desired Series/Parallel Mode operation

also, I still firmly believe that the DPDT mini-toggle is not the only (nor possibly best ) way to implement the desired Series/Parallel switching ... hint : find the vacant lot to park your switch

I could be wrong here, but I think that if you keep looking at what you have here, you'll notice how the puzzle pieces can be arranged to complete the picture you have described while also leaving a vacant hole in your guitar just begging for some new & interesting application

doc  

[kaustinwright]

I appreciate your input, but the vague "hinting" answers seem a little silly.

I understand allowing me to discover new things by myself, but purposefully holding back answers does no one any good, and causes the problem to get drawn out even further on my end. Rather than hint at a solution, why not say it outright so we can all try to improve on it?

I don't mean to sound as if I want it all handed to me, I just want to solve this issue for the dozens of others I've seen with this same problem.

[reTrEaD]

I appreciate your input, but the vague "hinting" answers seem a little silly.

I agree completely. It's possible to give someone all the pieces of information they need to assemble together on their own. But when the information is offered in cryptic form, it doesn't get the job done and leaves the would-be student (and others) just scratching their heads.

Feb 2, 2017 12:06:46 GMT -5 sumgai said:

I'm not sure what the problem is here.... the YM-30 can be have the two common terminals separated, so in effect, the switch is exacly the same, wiring-wise, as a standard Oak design. A clue would be to simplify asmith's efforts, posted some years ago.  (I didn't link to it, due to the complexity.)

This is useful. Almost. If the wheel has already been invented we don't need to re-invent it. If asmith's design is too complex for application here, we could certain use it as a starting point and pare it back ... IF we had a link.

That said, the mention of the two commons being separated does bring up a thought. The solution would entail a hanging from hot issue in one of the three positions but that might be more palatable than having the Series mode override the pickup selector.

One pickup (we'll arbitrarily choose the Bridge) would have its (-) connected directly to ground.
Its (+) connects to one pole of the YM.

The other pickup (Neck) will have its (+) connected directly to hot.
Its (-) connects to the other pole of the YM.

In the bridge-only and neck-only positions of the YM, the wiring is direct and easy to comprehend.

In the both-pickups position, things get just slightly complicated.
The throws from the YM in that position are routed first to the poles of a DPDT minitoggle.
The DPDT selects whether the throws from the YM in that position are connected together (series)
or are routed to ground (for the Neck -) and hot (for the Bridge +).

If I have time, I'll search for asmith's work and see if we can use it as a starting point.

[kaustinwright]

Thank you so much reTrEaD, I think we're on the right track with the dpdt controlling the center position.

I will look for that diagram you mentioned.. I'm not sure I'll know what it is when I see it but I'll try.

And I'm thankful you are on the same page about the cryptic replies as me, I'm all for doing the leg work, but it was beginning to be a bit discouraging.
I'm ready to solve this head on.

[kaustinwright]

guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/6008/series-parallel-switch-north-south

This looks like it's in the ballpark

[newey]

I thought I would repost Ace's diagram so we can discuss it without having to click back and forth.



Seems to me this is more than just a starting point, this has the goods you want, minus the coil cuts. Of course, the switching is rendered schematically, so you will need to translate that into a wiring diagram. So ther eis no confusion, note asmith's "1-2-3" numbering of the lugs on the 3-way; the common lug sits below those. This is then mirrored directly below for the other pole of the switch.

[kaustinwright]

I'll get right to drawing that up with the coil splits

[kaustinwright]

And just to make sure, this is going after the volume pots that have the coil splits, right?

and then the s/p switch out goes to my tone pot, then to output?

[newey]

Yes, same order of components as before, it's just the two switches that are changed.

[kaustinwright]

Sorry,  it's a bit cluttered.  Please check my work, not sure if the switch is done correctly

Thank you! 

Attachments: