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Post by merseymale on Mar 13, 2018 9:00:40 GMT -5
  I don't mind swapping around the Mid & Neck if it'll help but they were quite well balanced when they were in an SSS Strat I must have the original Bridge S.C somewhere too. Likely it'd be NORTH facing the strings & about 8.5 |
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Post by merseymale on Mar 13, 2018 9:54:32 GMT -5
Just one more thing...
Maybe I'm 'splitting hairs' but would it be a good idea to have NO master tone/PTB on the Middle pickup?
My thinking behind it is that it might encourage 'Quack' in positions 2&4? Although it might make it stronger as well as brighter & overpower the poor HumBucker in Position 2?!
Just a thought...
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Post by merseymale on Mar 13, 2018 14:15:56 GMT -5
Plus as usual with coil splitting a bridge pickup an important consideration is which coil you're (half) shutting off. Normally people prefer to shut off the coil closest to the bridge, which would be the South coil assuming standard orientations -- not the north coil as shown in Dirk's diagram (I don't know which coil's the Fender diagram shunts without knowing how the wire colours correspond to the humbuckers' coils)? I suppose that when paired with a NORTH facing Single Coil then the HumBucker Coil that's SOUTH facing should be used & Vice Versa so as to reduce Hum |
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Post by JohnH on Mar 13, 2018 14:28:31 GMT -5
All good info, thanks.
I think the PTB will have to be (and be better) after all the switching, acting on anything that is engaged. There's no way to make it not affect the middle pickup without messing things up. Would it be feasible to use a 250k log no-load pot for treble bleed, a 1M log for bass cut and 250 k log for volume? This will give the best balance of consistent action in all settings with very good control and tonal variation, plus excellent quack. If you prefer to use pots that you have, what have you got on hand?
BTW, the perfect bass cut pot has a reverse log taper, which are not common. With a normal log taper, the sweep will be nice and smooth but 10 is max cut, 0 is max bass ie no cut.
On the humbucker, I see the slug coil is facing the neck side. This is usually the strongest single coil, and its in the strongest position. But we have a free choice of whether to always bypass the same coil (ie bypass the screw coil), or swap which coil is bypassed. If it was a full coil cut Id say select the bypassed coil to optimise humcancelling with N and M, ie different coils. I reckon to design it that way, then with a couple of wires you can easily test a full coil cut, or no cut if you ever get curious. But could equally make it always cut to the screw coil being dominant.
BTW, HSS is my favourite set up, and I use a 250k volume and no-load master tone on mine though I don't have bass cut. I can get B+M combos either with full coil cut on the B or the full humbucker with M. Both are good and both quack, but the full Hb is a slightly larger louder duck. Yours maybe somewhere between or maybe a bit different. On mine, the no-load tone pot makes N+M really good, and much better than a traditional strat wiring where two tone pots squash this tone.
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Post by merseymale on Mar 13, 2018 14:47:29 GMT -5
All good info, thanks. I think the PTB will have to be (and be better) after all the switching, acting on anything that is engaged. There's no way to make it not affect the middle pickup without messing things up. Would it be feasible to use a 250k log no-load pot for treble bleed, a 1M log for bass cut and 250 k log for volume? This will give the best balance of consistent action in all settings with very good control and tonal variation, plus excellent quack. If you prefer to use pots that you have, what have you got on hand? BTW, the perfect bass cut pot has a reverse log taper, which are not common. With a normal log taper, the sweep will be nice and smooth but 10 is max cut, 0 is max bass ie no cut. On the humbucker, I see the slug coil is facing the neck side. This is usually the strongest single coil, and its in the strongest position. But we have a free choice of whether to always bypass the same coil (ie bypass the screw coil), or swap which coil is bypassed. If it was a full coil cut Id say select the bypassed coil to optimise humcancelling with N and M, ie different coils. I reckon to design it that way, then with a couple of wires you can easily test a full coil cut, or no cut if you ever get curious. But could equally make it always cut to the screw coil being dominant. BTW, HSS is my favourite set up, and I use a 250k volume and no-load master tone on mine though I don't have bass cut. I can get B+M combos either with full coil cut on the B or the full humbucker with M. Both are good and both quack, but the full Hb is a slightly larger louder duck. Yours maybe somewhere between or maybe a bit different. On mine, the no-load tone pot makes N+M really good, and much better than a traditional strat wiring where two tone pots squash this tone. Your Welcome! Yes, Im sure making the tone pots 'no-load' should be doable however making the 1Meg a push/pull as well could prove difficult… But we might not do the Series thing and anyway I love a challenge!! I've got LOADS of spare parts & potentiometers (I collect as I go but never had the time to use 'em till I lost my job) so there's a real MotherLode at my disposal! 😉 I think a dominant screw coil would be best as I can adjust those pole pieces in relation to how they work with the other pick ups to 'fine tune' the bridge pick up in relation to them Because of the Over Wound nature of the neck and middle single coils perhaps 500k (or more?!) for the Volume..? BTW I've since discovered that the S.Cs are actually "HYBRID" models by an English winder called "IRONSTONE" & not Texas Specials ironstone-guitar-pickups.co.uk/product/vintage-strat-pickups-hybrid-alnico-v/ |
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Post by merseymale on Mar 13, 2018 15:08:11 GMT -5
 BTW, the perfect bass cut pot has a reverse log taper, which are not common. With a normal log taper, the sweep will be nice and smooth but 10 is max cut, 0 is max bass ie no cut. Am I right in thinking that's a LEFT HAND Pot'? I got the diagram (above) for a PTB circuit using usual Potentiometers from here: tonefiend.com/guitar/two-band-ptb-tone-control-useful-easy-cheap-awesome/He seems to think it'll be good enough but what's your opinion on what he says? I will start work on those Pot' wafers nonetheless! |
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Post by JohnH on Mar 13, 2018 15:36:29 GMT -5
This is everything I know about PTB: guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/7172/bass-cut-ptb-systemTonefiend is using a standard log taper, so full bass at 0. If you want to use a push pull pot for bass cut you can use 500k if you want. No loss of full bass but a bit less cut available. The 250k volume is part of the PTB system. A 500k volume will further reduce available bass cut, though he seems ok with it. Keeping your tones bright with the 250k volume is achieved by the no-load treble pot. |
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Post by JohnH on Mar 13, 2018 16:09:57 GMT -5
on the pickups, I see these Ironstone Hybrids are 7.7k wound with 43 gage. That doesnt seem excessively hot. My HSS has Texas Specials at 6.2k but wound with 42 gage, so probably about tfbe same number of winds.
It would be great to hear what Antigua can deduce about them, though they may be some if the few he has not tested himself.
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Post by merseymale on Mar 13, 2018 16:18:06 GMT -5
This is everything I know about PTB: guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/7172/bass-cut-ptb-systemTonefiend is using a standard log taper, so full bass at 0. If you want to use a push pull pot for bass cut you can use 500k if you want. No loss of full bass but a bit less cut available. The 250k volume is part of the PTB system. A 500k volume will further reduce available bass cut, though he seems ok with it. Keeping your tones bright with the 250k volume is achieved by the no-load treble pot. That's... hmmm... interesting... "Keeping your tones bright with the 250k volume is achieved by the no-load treble pot" Are you saying that the LOWER the impedance of the potentiometer the BRIGHTER, or at least that there is more bandwidth available to cut? I thought the opposite was true🤔 I'll just have to admit that I'm the type who has to 'get their hands dirty', as it were, to learn things! Basically, once I've actually assembled the correct wiring and especially once I've 'lived with it' got a while then It'll finally 'sink in', do to speak & I can even tinker & fine-tune things and REALLY learn! TBH I guess the inherent factor of 'tweaking' that the fender/lawrence circuit represents is one of this wiring attractions, for me. Thanks for the link👍 |
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Post by merseymale on Mar 13, 2018 17:29:12 GMT -5
on the pickups, I see these Ironstone Hybrids are 7.7k wound with 43 gage. That doesnt seem excessively hot. My HSS has Texas Specials at 6.2k but wound with 42 gage, so probably about tfbe same number of winds. It would be great to hear what Antigua can deduce about them, though they may be some if the few he has not tested himself. I'm assuming Antigua is someone also who posts on this forum? For some reason my set measures at Midd: 7.90k and Neck: 7.50k while the HumBucker is 8.3k Anyway, here's hoping they play well together! 👍 |
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Post by sumgai on Mar 13, 2018 19:33:25 GMT -5
mm, Har har, you said a funny: I'm assuming Antigua is someone also who posts on this forum? Yes, he's a premium contributor here! Try this: guitarnuts2.proboards.com/board/16/pickups/antigua's in charge of those rooms here in The NutzHouse.  No, John said that if you're using 250K pots (of any taper), then a no-load trace will restore the brightness to pretty close to the maxium possible. Cutting that trace (at the very end of wiper-travel) removes all loading by the pot's resistance element, which in turn means that the tone will be brighter. Your understanding is correct in this regard.
sumgai
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Post by merseymale on Mar 13, 2018 19:51:54 GMT -5
mm, Har har, you said a funny: I'm assuming Antigua is someone also who posts on this forum? Yes, he's a premium contributor here! Try this: guitarnuts2.proboards.com/board/16/pickups/antigua's in charge of those rooms here in The NutzHouse. No, John said that if you're using 250K pots (of any taper), then a no-load trace will restore the brightness to pretty close to the maxium possible. Cutting that trace (at the very end of wiper-travel) removes all loading by the pot's resistance element, which in turn means that the tone will be brighter. Your understanding is correct in this regard.
sumgai
I'm full of "D O H!!" today 😜 |
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Post by merseymale on Mar 14, 2018 5:24:54 GMT -5
I've just been in touch with Antigua & yep he's very knowledgable to say the least! 👍
I can't wait to try this circuit, now! (If anyone better than me can manage put it together 'on paper' I can promise it'll get made AND REVIEWED! )
I believe that any shortcomings will be down to choice of pickups rather than design and they can be chopped&changed for more traditional units easily enough
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Post by JohnH on Mar 14, 2018 15:41:03 GMT -5
I have started a drawing...
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Post by merseymale on Mar 14, 2018 15:50:46 GMT -5
I have started a drawing... 🙂 Thanks So Very Much for this 👍 |
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Post by JohnH on Mar 15, 2018 5:35:43 GMT -5
Here is a design:  I think it does everything wanted. I set it up so its easy to try different values of the bypass parts for each setting, and also chose which coil to bypass. So there are two sets of the 1.5k and 0.1uF. If you want to use the same values, then you only need one set and bridge connections to suit. try full coil cut by shorting the R and C, or link the two poles on the right end. As drawn, the coil that is cut is chosen for best humcancelling if you had a full coil cut, and is probably best here, but swap around as you wish. The top right part of the 5-way is not doing anything, so its pressed into service and a humble tag strip for convenience. The bass cut assumes a normal log pot, so max bass is at 0. If you can get a reverse log pot, then wire that using the other outer lug for max bass at 10. Good luck, lets see how it works out! |
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Post by merseymale on Mar 15, 2018 19:40:32 GMT -5
I think it does everything wanted. I set it up so its easy to try different values of the bypass parts for each setting, and also chose which coil to bypass. So there are two sets of the 1.5k and 0.1uF. If you want to use the same values, then you only need one set and bridge connections to suit. try full coil cut by shorting the R and C, or link the two poles on the right end. As drawn, the coil that is cut is chosen for best humcancelling if you had a full coil cut, and is probably best here, but swap around as you wish. The top right part of the 5-way is not doing anything, so its pressed into service and a humble tag strip for convenience. The bass cut assumes a normal log pot, so max bass is at 0. If you can get a reverse log pot, then wire that using the other outer lug for max bass at 10. Good luck, lets see how it works out! W O W!! What can I say..? (except a BIG Thank You, of course!) I take it that the Red & Blue of the Pickups denote their Magnetic Polarity, yes? May I ask what the thinking is behind the Vol pot being 250k? Is it because bass cut AND full treble 'pseudo-boost' will make it too shrill? Is the "1nf 120k" beside the Volume Potentiometer denoting the values for the Treble Bleed? Should there even be a TB considering the PTB? I've not done that before so I.m just asking out of curiosity! In fact is the presence of a TB & the PTB the reason for the250k Pot in the 1st place? I take it that there'd be no problem putting a Phase DPDT switch straight after the Neck Pickup (on its TWO wires) & before the Selector & Volume(?) but what about a Series DPDT after the FOUR Bridge Pickup's wires & before they encounter the Selector & the Volume Pot? Finally, IF the Bass Pot ends up being a 500k log/right handed item, can the capacitor still be 2.2nf there or will that need to be adjusted..? Thanks for your Valuable Time :-) |
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Post by merseymale on Mar 15, 2018 19:48:17 GMT -5
P.S: The option to tune the HB differently for 2 different postions & against seperate Pickups is a Master Stroke & one that hadnt even occurred to me! G E N I U S  |
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Post by merseymale on Mar 15, 2018 20:03:26 GMT -5
P.P.S:
'just another point I got to wondering about is the Bridge Claw/Earth.
In the interests of Ground Loop avoidance, would it be better just to solder it onto the back of the Volume Pot instead of the Bass Pot or doesn't it really matter?
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Post by JohnH on Mar 15, 2018 20:49:27 GMT -5
Hi MM, Here are a few responses:
Yes red and blue are mag polarity – which I got from your post - best to check. I coloured south= red.
The treble bleed is the 120k and 1nF. Its not particularly related to this scheme or the PTB, but I show it / build it on all my designs. It’s optional though, and in any case it has no affect at full volume. The values are optimised for a 250k volume pot. (btw, with a 500k pot, I use 150k and 1nF)
One of the reasons for a 250k pot is for the bass cut control. The actual bass cutting comes from an RC filter comprising the 2.2nF cap and the volume pot. With a higher value pot the bass cut is less effective. But also, a 250k pot is ideal for your pickups, combined with the no-load treble pot. The humbucker tone will be the same as if it had the usual 2x500k for volume and tone, and the no-load tone will add to quack in positions 2 and 4.
Ive never had a bass-cut on my own guitar, but everything else in this design comes with a some dgree of confidence from what I’ve tried, particularly my own HSS Strat which has pickups that I think would respond very similarly to yours (Texas Specials and a 8.4k uncovered alnico humbucker). I use them with 250k volume and no-load tone, with those treble-bleed values.
A Phase switch is fine, directly after the neck pu if you wish. Series could be added too, using another dpdt such as on a push/pull. Typically on a Strat, going to a series mode with a 2-pole switch, you use it to put one pickup to earth and the other two added to it on the hot side. Out of 5 positions, there is usually some repeats in series mode. A good version of all of that for this design coud lbe to make the M pickup the grounded one, added in series to the others. So the 5 positions could be: BxM, BxM, (B+N)xM, NxM, NxM, with B being half split in positions 2 and 3 as currently.
Bass cut: If you use 500k instead of 1M, you miss out a small increment of available bass cut but it will still work and it wouldn’t necessarily mean a different cap value. But you can experiment with bass cut cap values as much as you want to.
Within a passively wired guitar, don’t worry about ground loops, they are a myth. Just make sure that everything that needs grounding has a wired route to ground by whichever path leads to the neatest wiring.
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Post by merseymale on Mar 15, 2018 21:23:00 GMT -5
Hi MM, Here are a few responses: Yes red and blue are mag polarity – which I got from your post - best to check. I coloured south= red. The treble bleed is the 120k and 1nF. Its not particularly related to this scheme or the PTB, but I show it / build it on all my designs. It’s optional though, and in any case it has no affect at full volume. The values are optimised for a 250k volume pot. (btw, with a 500k pot, I use 150k and 1nF) One of the reasons for a 250k pot is for the bass cut control. The actual bass cutting comes from an RC filter comprising the 2.2nF cap and the volume pot. With a higher value pot the bass cut is less effective. But also, a 250k pot is ideal for your pickups, combined with the no-load treble pot. The humbucker tone will be the same as if it had the usual 2x500k for volume and tone, and the no-load tone will add to quack in positions 2 and 4. Ive never had a bass-cut on my own guitar, but everything else in this design comes with a some dgree of confidence from what I’ve tried, particularly my own HSS Strat which has pickups that I think would respond very similarly to yours (Texas Specials and a 8.4k uncovered alnico humbucker). I use them with 250k volume and no-load tone, with those treble-bleed values. A Phase switch is fine, directly after the neck pu if you wish. Series could be added too, using another dpdt such as on a push/pull. Typically on a Strat, going to a series mode with a 2-pole switch, you use it to put one pickup to earth and the other two added to it on the hot side. Out of 5 positions, there is usually some repeats in series mode. A good version of all of that for this design coud lbe to make the M pickup the grounded one, added in series to the others. So the 5 positions could be: BxM, BxM, (B+N)xM, NxM, NxM, with B being half split in positions 2 and 3 as currently. Bass cut: If you use 500k instead of 1M, you miss out a small increment of available bass cut but it will still work and it wouldn’t necessarily mean a different cap value. But you can experiment with bass cut cap values as much as you want to. Within a passively wired guitar, don’t worry about ground loops, they are a myth. Just make sure that everything that needs grounding has a wired route to ground by whichever path leads to the neatest wiring. Im gonna start on this tomorrow morning Ok will check: south= red. North =Blue I'll be sure to include treble bleed and a 250k vol pot it is but it'll only be the treble tone pot that's No Load, right? Ill include a Phase Push/Pull on the Vol Pot, for sure, but I'm quite unsure about what you're saying in regard to the Series Push/Pull. I am sure that "BxM, BxM, (B+N)xM, NxM, NxM" sounds a difficult situation to me & should be avoided. IS there a way to add a Series DPDT to the Bridge PU? For the Bass cut ill be sure to use 1M, then "Within a passively wired guitar, don’t worry about ground loops, they are a myth" really? Well that just goes to show! I'll be sure to use my neatest wiring -after all I'll want to post photos of the guts! ;-) |
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Post by JohnH on Mar 15, 2018 21:46:38 GMT -5
Yep, just the treble cut is intended to be no-load.
The series modes can get some great sounds but when basic parallel wiring (which we have here) is combined with a 2-pole switch for series, it can get a bit quirky, but still good sounds available. What I suggested was to effectively put the series switch on M, if it was on B however, in this case you might get something like , B,B,B,Bx(N+M),BxN across 5 settings.
Better versions of series wiring tend to need a 4-pole switch such as Fender deluxe or Elite, or maybe something different that Strat SP hss I posted earlier. But that used up the full 4 poles of the five way without being able to automatically get your half splits.
How about wiring it as drawn but with the phase switch added, and also put another as-yet unwired push-pull on one of the other pots to consider later once you have heard the guitars basic tones? Actually on my guitars, I've never settled on a final wiring in one go, I always want to change or add something after first wiring it.
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Post by JohnH on Mar 15, 2018 23:36:41 GMT -5
Just thought of a 'killer' series mod to do on this one...
My own hss has several series settings, but by far the best is to take tbe neck pickup and add it in series with one bridge coil, of the opposite magnetism to make a new spread-out'humbucker'. Its powerful and clear, not muddy like some. Your pickup layout matches mine. You could have a switch that in position 5 only, turns N into NxB where the B is just that one coil. This wouldnt mess with other settings so you could can still move straight to full bridge humbucker. Its lijke turning hss intk hsh.
This would need the use of the 4th superswitch pole (so need to not use it as a tag strip) and a dpdt.
What do yoh think?
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Post by merseymale on Mar 16, 2018 0:40:17 GMT -5
Just thought of a 'killer' series mod to do on this one... My own hss has several series settings, but by far the best is to take tbe neck pickup and add it in series with one bridge coil, of the opposite magnetism to make a new spread-out'humbucker'. Its powerful and clear, not muddy like some. Your pickup layout matches mine. You could have a switch that in position 5 only, turns N into NxB where the B is just that one coil. This wouldnt mess with other settings so you could can still move straight to full bridge humbucker. Its lijke turning hss intk hsh. This would need the use of the 4th superswitch pole (so need to not use it as a tag strip) and a dpdt. What do yoh think? Well I think it sounds GREAT! I must admit, though, that it seems to me that IF I put a DPDT Series switch after the Bridge PickUp then that'd achieve the same thing -on a different Selector position(3)- AND have a Series option on 2 as well? I suppose if Series after the Bridge is a problem then perhaps this IS the way to go about it! I wasnt gonna use the switch as a Tag Strip due to epoxying(!) variable Pot/trimmers to the tone controls so that the LawrenceSemiSplit thing Can be tuned thru holesinthePickGuard while theStrat s strung up:-) If there was a choice between a Series Switch OR a Phase Switch which would you go for? I was originally leaning toward the Phase due to the PuPs being hotter & perhaps, therefore, thicker sounding than usual...? |
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Post by merseymale on Mar 16, 2018 0:43:50 GMT -5
Yep, just the treble cut is intended to be no-load. The series modes can get some great sounds but when basic parallel wiring (which we have here) is combined with a 2-pole switch for series, it can get a bit quirky, but still good sounds available. What I suggested was to effectively put the series switch on M, if it was on B however, in this case you might get something like , B,B,B,Bx(N+M),BxN across 5 settings. Better versions of series wiring tend to need a 4-pole switch such as Fender deluxe or Elite, or maybe something different that Strat SP hss I posted earlier. But that used up the full 4 poles of the five way without being able to automatically get your half splits. How about wiring it as drawn but with the phase switch added, and also put another as-yet unwired push-pull on one of the other pots to consider later once you have heard the guitars basic tones? Actually on my guitars, I've never settled on a final wiring in one go, I always want to change or add something after first wiring it. I've often put 'pot ByPass' Push/Pulls on my Volumes so was considering that too -although will the PTB render that pointless anyway!? OK here's a new(ish!) question: On an HSS with PTB & only one PushPull would you prefer... A) a Phase Switch? B) a Series Switch C) a Vol/Tone(but NOT selector) ByPass? |
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Post by merseymale on Mar 16, 2018 0:49:57 GMT -5
Just thought of a 'killer' series mod to do on this one... My own hss has several series settings, but by far the best is to take tbe neck pickup and add it in series with one bridge coil, of the opposite magnetism to make a new spread-out'humbucker'. Its powerful and clear, not muddy like some. Your pickup layout matches mine. You could have a switch that in position 5 only, turns N into NxB where the B is just that one coil. This wouldnt mess with other settings so you could can still move straight to full bridge humbucker. Its lijke turning hss intk hsh. This would need the use of the 4th superswitch pole (so need to not use it as a tag strip) and a dpdt. What do yoh think? Hang on! hang on!! hang on!!! Do you mean NO Neck Single Coil on it's own? I'm not so sure about that... Still, it doesn't HAVE to be too much like a Sratocaster, I suppose.. .hmmmm.... Would the Bridge HB be 100% split or would it be subject to one of the two of those Lawrence SemiSplit networks? (& if so WHICH one?) |
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Post by JohnH on Mar 16, 2018 0:53:36 GMT -5
I have phase switches on all my electric guitars except my favorite, the hss Strat. I put them in because I liked figuring them out. But I have literallg never played through an entire song using them, either at home or with band. A single coil or parallel setting always sounds bettsr to me for a bright option. I do use series though.
A series switch has to work with the whole system if it is combining pickups. So to add one needs a scheme developed. I quite like the options I posted for it and I dont mind drawing some more.
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Post by merseymale on Mar 16, 2018 0:57:38 GMT -5
I have phase switches on all my electric guitars except my favorite, the hss Strat. I put them in because I liked figuring them out. But I have literallg never played through an entire song using them, either at home or with band. A single coil or parallel setting always sounds bettsr to me for a bright option. I do use series though. A series switch has to work with the whole system if it is combining pickups. So to add one needs a scheme developed. I quite like the options I posted for it and I dont mind drawing some more. Y E S P L E A S E!! (I take it that it'll be: B, B+M, B+N, M+N, BxN) |
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Post by merseymale on Mar 16, 2018 1:03:27 GMT -5
...I have literallg never played through an entire song using them, either at home or with band. A single coil or parallel setting always sounds bettsr to me for a bright option. I do use series though Although, I suppose the original scheme you devised but with a Seriesswitch between the Neck & the Vol/selector would achieve the same thing (albeit a bit more fiddly?) AND keep the Neck solo option too? Hmmm... I think I'm really warming to the 'psuedo H S H' idea now! Although it must be said that the new option (BxN) will have a single coil of over 7k AND under the loudest point inthe string after the FretBoard to boot paired with a Single Coil of a little over 4k struggling under the quietest point I the whole guitar! Will the Neck overpower the Bridge OR is that more off consideration when in Parallel & not Series? |
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Post by JohnH on Mar 16, 2018 1:11:41 GMT -5
ok so for a mk2 diagram, should it have phase switch and the neck series switch? And which pots should they be on, or are they seperate switches?
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