Burns Tri-Sonic set for Strat, Analysis & Review

[straylight]

github.com/strayr/pickupAnalyseR-data

boom!

I need to do analysis posts of quite a few pickups

[antigua]

Jan 12, 2020 19:27:13 GMT -5 straylight said:

I'll put it up what I have and keep updating. The R code i've been brewing is entirely about overlaying a collection of arbitrary pickups to compare. I need to refactor the code some to deal with data that's been hardware integrated. I'm using the unintegrated data to track peaks for calculations, I make a plot with a 100nF resistor to calculate inductance, where there is no descernable peak on the integrated plot.

And maybe i should roll a simple viewer that just displays velleman plots?

I think i need to add notes to every set of plots to explain what they are and include my multimeter measurements.

I'd understand better once I see it working. I think screen shots of plotted pickup sets would be valuable, even though you can't overlay them, a person can visually compare them, and they can be seen without using any special software. 

[straylight]

I'm trying to go through and add an analysis for each pickup and pickups set. I should probably have the code that does that save the plots image files. It's a LOT to maintain as soon as i start publishing output as well as the code that analyses. If I were better at R, i could have each analysis wrapped up in a neat PDF rather than a stack of images. It's my intention to keep publishing analysis of each pickup with all the plots produced measuring that pickup and an overlay comparing to some similar. My particularl interest is in being able to pull up 3 or 4 pickups of interest and compare them, it's particularly useful when I'm winding my own and trying to consistently nail a particular response curve. I'll do what I can.

[blademaster2]

Nov 20, 2018 21:31:41 GMT -5 antigua said:

Nov 20, 2018 19:40:56 GMT -5 newey said:

On the long list of "maybe someday" projects, I had long thought of installing a set of the originals in a Strat, modifying the pickguard for fitment. So, my question would be, do these Strat-friendly ones faithfully replicate the original Tri-sonics? (I don't know if you had ever subjected the original models to testing, however.)

I haven't tested the originals, but my guess is that they're constructed close enough to the originals. If they sound different than Brian May's Red Special, it's probably going to owe to all of the other differences between a Strat and that guitar. 

Brian May uses a treble booster in his setup, in addition to wiring them in series (I always figured that the treble booster was a way for Brian to get back the treble that was lost due to the series wiring, plus his use of a coin as a pick to get a sharp attack). Without that, ignoring the body construction differences with the Red Special, I would still expect the equivalent Burns pickups to sound different compared to the Red Special.

I gather the closest anyone can get to the Red Special sound using a Strat is to wire the Burns pickups in series and also feed them into a treble booster (and then to a Vox AC30, cranked). The body construction difference - and the enormously thick neck Brian made - will still be missing, of course.

[antigua]

They make a Red Special Strat pick guard you can buy, a lot easier than making one I bet. The sound of notch pickups in series can be duplicated with a switchable capacitor, all you lose out on is the higher voltage. The treble booster might have been to overcome the eddy current attenuation as much as the darker series sound. I'm not a big Brian May fan, I don't know how often he runs the pickups more than one at a time in practice. 

[blademaster2]

In an interview Brian shows the pickup combinations he has used in some famous songs and solos.

He used almost all of the available combinations in Bohemian Rhapsody throughout the song.

[aumnix1]

I think my trisonics are missing the 2nd ground wire. Is it literally just a wire coming from the blob of solder b/w plate and cover? If so, where do I connect the other end? 

Also, since the mini's are thinner than normal trisonics, would a full range booster be better than a treble booster?

[antigua]

Oct 25, 2020 10:27:13 GMT -5 aumnix1 said:

I think my trisonics are missing the 2nd ground wire. Is it literally just a wire coming from the blob of solder b/w plate and cover? If so, where do I connect the other end? 

Also, since the mini's are thinner than normal trisonics, would a full range booster be better than a treble booster?

1) Yes, just a chassis wire, and it connects to ground. A lot of pickups have the ground and negative wire combined, because it's presumed they're on the same side of the circuit, but for any "series" wiring, the negative wire will go into the next pickup in the series chain (by way of the slide switch) and is not going to ground, so it's necessary to have the third ground wire that is dedicated to being a ground wire. 


2) I believe the small Tri Sonics have a lower inductance, a full EQ pedal might be needed to get the same mid-range character of the full sized Tri Sonics.  

[aumnix1]

Oct 25, 2020 12:57:02 GMT -5 antigua said:

Oct 25, 2020 10:27:13 GMT -5 aumnix1 said:

I think my trisonics are missing the 2nd ground wire. Is it literally just a wire coming from the blob of solder b/w plate and cover? If so, where do I connect the other end? 

Also, since the mini's are thinner than normal trisonics, would a full range booster be better than a treble booster?

1) Yes, just a chassis wire, and it connects to ground. A lot of pickups have the ground and negative wire combined, because it's presumed they're on the same side of the circuit, but for any "series" wiring, the negative wire will go into the next pickup in the series chain (by way of the slide switch) and is not going to ground, so it's necessary to have the third ground wire that is dedicated to being a ground wire. 


2) I believe the small Tri Sonics have a lower inductance, a full EQ pedal might be needed to get the same mid-range character of the full sized Tri Sonics.  

So what would I need to do? It seems that the 3rd wire is pretty important. Im guessing I have to take apart the pickup and do some soldering or do I just need to solder a wire from the chassis to the pot?

[antigua]

Oct 25, 2020 15:00:24 GMT -5 aumnix1 said:

Oct 25, 2020 12:57:02 GMT -5 antigua said:

1) Yes, just a chassis wire, and it connects to ground. A lot of pickups have the ground and negative wire combined, because it's presumed they're on the same side of the circuit, but for any "series" wiring, the negative wire will go into the next pickup in the series chain (by way of the slide switch) and is not going to ground, so it's necessary to have the third ground wire that is dedicated to being a ground wire. 


2) I believe the small Tri Sonics have a lower inductance, a full EQ pedal might be needed to get the same mid-range character of the full sized Tri Sonics.  

So what would I need to do? It seems that the 3rd wire is pretty important. Im guessing I have to take apart the pickup and do some soldering or do I just need to solder a wire from the chassis to the pot?

Just add a wire from the chassis to the pot.

[aumnix1]

Oct 25, 2020 18:27:53 GMT -5 antigua said:

Oct 25, 2020 15:00:24 GMT -5 aumnix1 said:

So what would I need to do? It seems that the 3rd wire is pretty important. Im guessing I have to take apart the pickup and do some soldering or do I just need to solder a wire from the chassis to the pot?

Just add a wire from the chassis to the pot.

So if I add that 3rd wire would that take out some of the buzzing i've been getting?



Thats going to be the wiring diagram I will use. I have the normal brian may one but I want to try it with 3 switches instead if 6.

[antigua]

Oct 25, 2020 21:14:59 GMT -5 aumnix1 said:

Oct 25, 2020 18:27:53 GMT -5 antigua said:

Just add a wire from the chassis to the pot.

So if I add that 3rd wire would that take out some of the buzzing i've been getting?



Thats going to be the wiring diagram I will use. I have the normal brian may one but I want to try it with 3 switches instead if 6.

Yeah. That's a good wiring scheme, I don't think OOP sounds are too useful anyway. Brian May can make it work, but it's not real common in pop music.

[aumnix1]

perfect man I appreciate it. I may go mess around and wire the and volume another way. Ever since I tried the brian may setup I notice a lot more buzzing. Its either this schematic im using right now
or if its something wiring with my wiring job. You think it'd be okay to solder all 3 of the ground wires together or do I need to solder them all onto the pot?




I may go for the 50s, I have heard better things about that style, or 60s. I never know.

[antigua]

Oct 26, 2020 16:07:41 GMT -5 aumnix1 said:

perfect man I appreciate it. I may go mess around and wire the and volume another way. Ever since I tried the brian may setup I notice a lot more buzzing. Its either this schematic im using right now
or if its something wiring with my wiring job. You think it'd be okay to solder all 3 of the ground wires together or do I need to solder them all onto the pot?




I may go for the 50s, I have heard better things about that style, or 60s. I never know.

If you have buzzing issues, just make sure that all the pickup's chassis/ground wires are connected to ground, because if they're not, they will serve to increase the noise. 

In that chart above, "60's" and "modern" wiring are eclectically identical.

[aumnix1]

Oct 26, 2020 23:14:35 GMT -5 antigua said:

Oct 26, 2020 16:07:41 GMT -5 aumnix1 said:

perfect man I appreciate it. I may go mess around and wire the and volume another way. Ever since I tried the brian may setup I notice a lot more buzzing. Its either this schematic im using right now
or if its something wiring with my wiring job. You think it'd be okay to solder all 3 of the ground wires together or do I need to solder them all onto the pot?




I may go for the 50s, I have heard better things about that style, or 60s. I never know.

If you have buzzing issues, just make sure that all the pickup's chassis/ground wires are connected to ground, because if they're not, they will serve to increase the noise. 

In that chart above, "60's" and "modern" wiring are eclectically identical.

May just go with 50s then, I heard that it doesn't cause any treble lost when rolling the tone down. I really can't wait to wire this!

[newey]

aumnix1-

We're getting well off the topic of tri-sonic pickups here. I've let this go because antigua has responded to you, and he moderates this sub-board.

But, for future reference, questions about wiring issues belong in the general wiring board. You're also more likely to get input from others there, since they won't be looking here for wiring issues.

On the difference between modern and '50s tone pot wiring, JohnH has the data:
guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/1885/modern-50s-wiring

[aumnix1]

Oct 27, 2020 5:46:48 GMT -5 newey said:

aumnix1-

We're getting well off the topic of tri-sonic pickups here. I've let this go because antigua has responded to you, and he moderates this sub-board.

But, for future reference, questions about wiring issues belong in the general wiring board. You're also more likely to get input from others there, since they won't be looking here for wiring issues.

On the difference between modern and '50s tone pot wiring, JohnH has the data:
guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/1885/modern-50s-wiring

K

[aumnix1]

I have a 250K with a 47 capacitor, it sounds nice but is pretty bright and shrill when out of phase, maybe going to a 22 capacitor with 250k will work since the trisonics have a lower inductance. 
250K 22 cap
250k 47 cap
500k 22 cap
500k 47cap(way to bright)
So many options lol

[ms]

Oct 31, 2020 15:35:37 GMT -5 aumnix1 said:

I have a 250K with a 47 capacitor, it sounds nice but is pretty bright and shrill when out of phase, maybe going to a 22 capacitor with 250k will work since the trisonics have a lower inductance. 
250K 22 cap
250k 47 cap
500k 22 cap
500k 47cap(way to bright)
So many options lol

Someone said it before, and I will say it again:  the capacitor only matters only when the tone pot is turned down, usually well below 10.  In any case, a smaller value of capacitance would be expected to not cut so much high frequencies.

[ms]

Oct 31, 2020 15:35:37 GMT -5 aumnix1 said:

I have a 250K with a 47 capacitor, it sounds nice but is pretty bright and shrill when out of phase, maybe going to a 22 capacitor with 250k will work since the trisonics have a lower inductance. 
250K 22 cap
250k 47 cap
500k 22 cap
500k 47cap(way to bright)
So many options lol

To make it less bright, you need to decrease the value of resistance across the pickup.  You could use a smaller value tone or volume pot, or add some fixed resistance in parallel with the pickup.