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Post by antigua on Nov 20, 2018 0:53:16 GMT -5
 The Burns Tri-Sonics pickups are mostly associated with Brian May, who put a set of three of them in a guitar he put together called the "Red Special", but otherwise were found in Burns guitars. These Stratocaster versions are smaller than the original, and appear to be constructed somewhat differently. I know that both designs feature ceramic magnets. They have a "BHK" sticker on the back , which is apparently the mark of a pickup manufacturer in Korea that has made pickups for various budget priced instruments, though most of the pickups I have seen from them are well made, especially the Fender Fideli'trons. But since these are meant to be fitted into a Strat, the more important question is probably, how do they compare to AlNiCo Strat pickups? Similar to Strat pickups, they have a magnet in the coil, rather that below the coil, like a P-90 or a Filter'tron, but it's just one large, ceramic bar magnet. The ceramic magnet is non conductive and likely non permeable, unlike AlNiCo or steel, so the ceramic magnet core neither increase the inductance, not causes eddy currents, but nevertheless, there are a high degree of eddy current losses due to the metal cover and base plate, causing the Tri-Sonic to have virtually no resonant Q factor. Most all Fender single coils little or no extra metal parts involved, show very little eddy current losses, and have a high resonant Q, which is a feature of the "Fender sound". Otherwise you're left with a soft roll-off of the treble. Looking at the top of the pickup, you see six holes and some textured black vinyl below. Under that layer is foil shielding that surrounds all of the coil except for the ends, and then under the foil is the large ceramic bar magnet core. Speaking of the Fender Fideli'trons, the Tri-Sonic for Strats are comparable to Filter'trons in a few respects, despite the lack of screw pole pieces and an AlNiCo magnet. First, the large about of steel and conductive metal causes the Tri-Sonic for Strat to show a high degree of eddy current losses, very similar to a Filter'tron. Second, the shape of the base plate and the chrome cover somewhat resemble a Filter'tron. Third, both have unusually low inductance values for a hi-Z guitar pickup. Another pickup they're probably very similar to are Danelectro "lipstick tube" pickups, because though I have yet to test one, there are notable similarities in terms of the structure and the electrical values. The very low Q factor makes for a somewhat flat treble, with a soft foll off, but that doesn't mean the pickup is necessarily dark, because it has a very high resonant peak due to the very low inductance. The loaded resonant peak of the Tri-Sonic for Strat is around 5kHz, which begins to approach the limit of what a guitar amp will even put out, meaning the LC resonance of the pickup attenuates almost nothing that is audible. Most Strat pickup have resonant peaks around 4kHz, and most PAF type pickups around 2.5kHz. I haven't put these in a guitar yet, but I expect they will be fairly bright and thin, but the big roll off causes by the eddy currents might counteract the brightness, so I'll have to try them out and report back. The magnetic pull at the strings appears to be very high, since there is a large ceramic magnet directly below the black vinyl which you can see though the cover holes. The gauss measures 1250G, which is even stronger than AlNiCo 5 Strat pole pieces, which I usually measure at around 1050G. Most guitar pickups with screws or slugs don't get much past 400G. I'll have to see whether "wolf tones" are a problem with these pickups as they tend to be with a regular AlNiCo 5 Strat pickup. OTOH, I think there's probably less temptation to set these pickups close to the strings, since the magnet does not protrude out the top of the pickup. The chassis has it's own green wire, so that you can wire the pickups in phase / out of phase, like the Brian May Red Special, without any trouble. Another note, a stock Strat comes with 250k pots, but the intention of that is to roll off the high Q of an AlNiCo poled single coil pickup. Since the Tri-Sonics have almost no Q factor, you'd probably get better results with 500k or even 1 meg pots. I understand the Brian May Red Special might have used 300k linear pots, but you can always replicate the effects of a lower value pot with a higher value but by just turning it down slightly. The higher value pot just gives you more range. Burns London Mini Tri-Sonic Bridge
- DC Resistance: 9.56K ohms
- Measured L: 0.93H
- Calculated C: 315pF (325 - 10)
- Gauss: 1250G
Burns London Mini Tri-Sonic Middle
- DC Resistance: 8.63K ohms
- Measured L: 0.74H
- Calculated C: 350pF (360 - 10)
- Gauss: 1250G
Burns London Mini Tri-Sonic Neck
- DC Resistance: 8.59K ohms
- Measured L: 0.73H
- Calculated C: 310pF (320 - 10)
- Gauss: 1250G
Bridge unloaded: dV: -2.9dB f: 9.16kHz (black)
Bridge loaded (200k & 470pF): dV: -1.7dB f: 4.95kHz (blue)
Middle unloaded: dV: -3.6dB f: 9.70kHz (red)
Middle loaded (200k & 470pF): dV: -2.1dB f: 5.48kHz (green)
Neck unloaded: dV: -2.0dB f: 10.4kHz (pink)
Neck loaded (200k & 470pF): dV: -1.3dB f: 5.61kHz (black)Bode Plot:  Note the big roll off, caused by the excessive eddy currents, but notice also that the drop off is past 5kHz, which is well into the high treble frequencies. Pics: The pickups are wax potted:  wax removed:  base plate removed:  |
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Post by stratotarts on Nov 20, 2018 11:07:20 GMT -5
Interesting. Do you know what material the covers are, brass? The combination of high frequency response with eddy damping reminds me a lot of the Filtertron response. It's not hard to imagine how it could produce a tonal flavour that some people might like.
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Post by ms on Nov 20, 2018 13:45:12 GMT -5
I think that the unloaded responses show that there is a resonance peak, but it is less obvious because of the frequency dependent loss from the (brass?) cover, etc.
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Post by stratotarts on Nov 20, 2018 14:48:33 GMT -5
It would be interesting to see the no cover response.
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Post by antigua on Nov 20, 2018 15:41:09 GMT -5
These are good questions, I will get measures of the pickup without the cover and without the base plate tonight. A Filter'tron's losses are mostly caused by the screws, yet this pickup has no screws.
I also forgot to mention that the high DC resistance to the low inductance, as well as the small coil size, suggests the wire is very thin, likely 44 AWG.
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Post by newey on Nov 20, 2018 19:40:56 GMT -5
On the long list of "maybe someday" projects, I had long thought of installing a set of the originals in a Strat, modifying the pickguard for fitment. So, my question would be, do these Strat-friendly ones faithfully replicate the original Tri-sonics? (I don't know if you had ever subjected the original models to testing, however.)
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Post by antigua on Nov 20, 2018 21:31:41 GMT -5
On the long list of "maybe someday" projects, I had long thought of installing a set of the originals in a Strat, modifying the pickguard for fitment. So, my question would be, do these Strat-friendly ones faithfully replicate the original Tri-sonics? (I don't know if you had ever subjected the original models to testing, however.) I haven't tested the originals, but my guess is that they're constructed close enough to the originals. If they sound different than Brian May's Red Special, it's probably going to owe to all of the other differences between a Strat and that guitar. Here's a video of these pickups in a "Cobra" Strat copy made by Burns They sound like especially bright, thin Strat pickups to my ears, but not "shrill", probably on account of the high end roll off. |
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Post by antigua on Nov 20, 2018 21:35:00 GMT -5
It would be interesting to see the no cover response. It appears that the cover is the major cause of the losses, and once again the base plate proves to have a much smaller effect, for whatever reason. The base plate is steel, it attracts the ceramic magnet.  |
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Post by stratotarts on Nov 23, 2018 8:10:24 GMT -5
Burns claimed that flanges on the baseplate were something really special - this suggests that, at least in this case, channeling the field from the back of the magnet makes very little difference.
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Post by antigua on Nov 23, 2018 12:39:37 GMT -5
Burns claimed that flanges on the baseplate were something really special - this suggests that, at least in this case, channeling the field from the back of the magnet makes very little difference. LOL, it's clearly just there to hold the coil in place and to provide an interface between the cover and the base plate. The strange U shaped keeper under a Jaguar pickup was supposed to have the same effect, but I didn't see much difference there either guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/8149/fender-jaguar-set-analysis-review This video shows what's going on underneath the Tri Sonic's cover. It looks like the original has six round ceramic magnets instead of a single bar magnet, and the coil sits loose around the magnets, but none of those distinctions result in much difference to the overall geometry. |
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Post by perfboardpatcher on Nov 23, 2018 15:15:40 GMT -5
It would be interesting to see the no cover response. It appears that the cover is the major cause of the losses, and once again the base plate proves to have a much smaller effect, for whatever reason. The base plate is steel, it attracts the ceramic magnet. I've never seen a pickup like this, with a core like that! With post44 in mind I'm curious what would be the measured results when the exciter coil is sandwiched, i.e. exciter coil sits on top of the burn tri-sonic but without cover and the cover sits on top of the exciter coil? |
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Post by antigua on Nov 23, 2018 15:29:02 GMT -5
It appears that the cover is the major cause of the losses, and once again the base plate proves to have a much smaller effect, for whatever reason. The base plate is steel, it attracts the ceramic magnet. I've never seen a pickup like this, with a core like that! With post44 in mind I'm curious what would be the measured results when the exciter coil is sandwiched, i.e. exciter coil sits on top of the burn tri-sonic but without cover and the cover sits on top of the exciter coil? That would have been a decent experiment, unfortunately I've put them in a Strat now, so I can't easily test them again. I'd like to perform more eddy current tests in general. I did a fair amount three years ago using aluminum heat sinks, but I know a lot more about the issues now than I did then. The pickups are indeed bright, a lot like Filter'trons.  |
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Post by reTrEaD on Dec 1, 2018 12:46:22 GMT -5
A quick question, antiguaAre all three pickups in the set of the same magnetic polarity, or is one of them RWRP? |
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Post by antigua on Dec 1, 2018 17:59:52 GMT -5
A quick question, antigua Are all three pickups in the set of the same magnetic polarity, or is one of them RWRP? Good question, yes, the middle pickup is RW/RP. |
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Post by pablogilberto on Jan 7, 2020 9:51:24 GMT -5
Hi antiguaIf I have a typical strat pickup and I want it to sound in the teritory of this strat-size trisonic, what are the things that I can do? What's are my options? Or should I start by winding a strat with overwound 44AWG to get that low inductance value with high DCR? Thanks! |
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Post by antigua on Jan 7, 2020 13:10:10 GMT -5
Hi antigua If I have a typical strat pickup and I want it to sound in the teritory of this strat-size trisonic, what are the things that I can do? What's are my options? Or should I start by winding a strat with overwound 44AWG to get that low inductance value with high DCR? Thanks! The DC resistance is irrelevant, but to get an inductance of 0.7H you would need a lot less than 8,000 turns of wire. If I had to guess, I'd say maybe 5,000 or 6,000. It's often the case that these pickups are manufactured with some big round number of turns, for example 8k turns for a Strat pickup, or 10k turns for a P-90, I'm sure the Burns TriSonic for Strat is some large round number, too. The magnetic strength of the TriSonic is very comparable to AlNiCo 5. The only other consideration is the low Q factor of the TriSonic, which you can approximate with parallel resistance, or turning down the tone control about half way. |
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Post by pablogilberto on Jan 7, 2020 20:41:49 GMT -5
Hi antigua Where did you bought this? I want to try. I have found one in aliexpress. I'm not sure if it's the real deal or just a replica but the seller is saying that they cannot sell replicas. Here's the link: Burns Tri-sonic Single Alnico Pickups For Electric Guitar MADE IN KOREA a.aliexpress.com/2k0dbJnaSpecs posted on eh site: Alnico-V Magnet , Neck : 6.6K ; Middle : 6.7K , Bridge : 6.8K Here are from other 2 sellers: a.aliexpress.com/Mcd1Ucz2a.aliexpress.com/MdxnlpmYWhat do you think? Thank you! |
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Post by antigua on Jan 7, 2020 22:38:04 GMT -5
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Post by frets on Jan 7, 2020 23:56:09 GMT -5
Antigua, I’m interested in buying a set but had thought all Trisonics had logos printed on the covers. Im just thinking authenticity. Am I wrong?
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Post by antigua on Jan 8, 2020 0:15:43 GMT -5
Antigua, I’m interested in buying a set but had thought all Trisonics had logos printed on the covers. Im just thinking authenticity. Am I wrong? The Strat set? The ones in the link I posted look very much the same as the ones I have, except that they have Brian May's name in the product name. I don't know much about authenticating them otherwise. For some reason I cant open the Alibaba links, it prompts me to log in. In general, guitar pickups on Alibaba tend not to be authentic name brand product. |
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Post by frets on Jan 8, 2020 1:32:10 GMT -5
Antigua, Right when I discovered AliExpress, I bought a set of Seymour Duncan’s. These pickups were absolutely identical. I got suspicious because the JB bridge pickup’s resistance was off. I took them to a friend who owns a guitar shop and he said it was an authentic JB, and this guy knows guitars. I still think they’re fake because of the price I excitedly paid on an impulse; but, one wonders what lengths some Chinese company will go to to make a product look exactly legitimate to the finest detail. I looked on AliExpress at the Trisonics and sure enough, same thing - they look absolutely authentic. But again, the price is way off. At the end of the day, if they sound good and one is happy with the pickups, I guess that’s all that matters.
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Post by antigua on Jan 8, 2020 3:09:50 GMT -5
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Post by frets on Jan 8, 2020 3:20:11 GMT -5
I see...wow, then they could be a steal. It is true that Guiitar Family and Guyker vend products made in Korea. I know for a fact Guitar Family does because they sell those mini Alpha Concentrics. You’ve almost got me convinced to buy a set. I’ve always loved their sound. And if they’re fake, I’m only out $38 bucks.
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Post by pablogilberto on Jan 8, 2020 7:51:16 GMT -5
I see...wow, then they could be a steal. It is true that Guiitar Family and Guyker vend products made in Korea. I know for a fact Guitar Family does because they sell those mini Alpha Concentrics. You’ve almost got me convinced to buy a set. I’ve always loved their sound. And if they’re fake, I’m only out $38 bucks. Please give me feedback if you have purchased already and have verified its authenticity. Will appreciate if you can also share how they sound. Or maybe record some sound samples? Will be grateful! Thank you! |
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Post by frets on Jan 9, 2020 0:07:43 GMT -5
Will do..,
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Post by straylight on Jan 10, 2020 21:41:39 GMT -5
You've put loads of new pickup analysis up on here since i was last on. Thanks Antigua. This is really great.
Did you by any chance export and retain the data from your plots? I'd really like to be ableto feed it to R for comparison.
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Post by antigua on Jan 11, 2020 0:24:18 GMT -5
You've put loads of new pickup analysis up on here since i was last on. Thanks Antigua. This is really great.
Did you by any chance export and retain the data from your plots? I'd really like to be ableto feed it to R for comparison.
Here's a crude dump of my bode plot files echoesofmars.com/pickup_data/bode_plots/I didn't name the files well, they were just intended to be a backup. I wasn't thinking too far ahead when I was saving them. If you scroll to the bottom of the data files there is plain text overlay text that explains what the plots are. If you have questions about anything I can probably clarify. |
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Post by straylight on Jan 11, 2020 20:44:10 GMT -5
You are a hero! Would you like my CGM made plots? I have a lot I can tidy up for release, Or would you need me to integrate them and convert to velleman format to be useful? I have been proper slow with my sharing and i need to change that.
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Post by antigua on Jan 12, 2020 14:29:15 GMT -5
You are a hero! Would you like my CGM made plots? I have a lot I can tidy up for release, Or would you need me to integrate them and convert to velleman format to be useful? I have been proper slow with my sharing and i need to change that.
I would like to get the data. I'm not sure what pickups you've plotted, DiMarzios? If it was made to work with the Velleman I could render it real easy, but I can't think of a reason I might do that yet. In the past I was thinking of creating a database that overlaid resonant peaks, but that just used the peak frequency and peak amplitude, and a modifier for eddy currents, plugged into an equation that John H helped me figure out, and the plots were simulated to a good degree of accuracy. That also allowed fake loads to be added and simulated. Using raw data plots would be more accurate, but they can't be manipulated after the fact with RLC equations unless the peak frequency and amplitude are parsed out, so that's probably what is most valuable from plot data are those two points, and in the case of the peak frequency, the loaded peak with the 470pF, because it helps normalize the capacitance of the circuit, delivering a peak that speaks more to the inductance. The amplitude at resonance is derived with a integrated plot, since a non integrated plot never has any "flat" portion. |
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Post by straylight on Jan 12, 2020 19:27:13 GMT -5
I'll put it up what I have and keep updating. The R code i've been brewing is entirely about overlaying a collection of arbitrary pickups to compare. I need to refactor the code some to deal with data that's been hardware integrated. I'm using the unintegrated data to track peaks for calculations, I make a plot with a 100nF resistor to calculate inductance, where there is no descernable peak on the integrated plot.
And maybe i should roll a simple viewer that just displays velleman plots?
I think i need to add notes to every set of plots to explain what they are and include my multimeter measurements.
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