burgher79
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Post by burgher79 on Feb 28, 2019 15:28:18 GMT -5
Hi everyone Well I am a newbie here and this is my first post on the forum. Over the last year I have purchased a couple of Charvel Guthrie Govan guitars - the Ash version, then the limited Edition Britannica red one. I love so much about these guitars, especially the neck shape and playability. I also love the versatility of sounds that it has. However, having two of them which are pretty similar, I am interested in making some changes to the red one by changing pickups and wiring to give me something a bit different from the Ash one. Although they are frequently touted as the ultimate superstar, I feel that they are actually more like a single step up from a modern version of the vintage sounds. In this regard the single coil sounds are really really good, and it also lets you step it up with the full Humbuckers. Whilst it does heavy blues and jazz really well, I personally feel that it doesn't quite do heavy rock as well as I would like and I think the pickup and wiring should take it to where I want it. Another really good thing about the guitars are how well the volume and tone pots work, with the volume pot range being really useful and almost more like a gain control. It has very useable sounds through the complete volume and tone control ranges. I have attached a wiring diagram I made in DIYLC: I have highlighted the additional SC simulation circuitry with blue wiring on the newer versions of the guitar, but all the rest of the wiring is the same on both newer and older versions. I am pretty new to guitar wiring so have been reading up like mad on this over the last weeks. A few observations: - The guitar looks like it has modern wiring - The green pickup wire and shielding cable have heat shrink over them and both grounded onto the volume pot - The tone capacitor is a fender 0.05MFD wax paper capacitor - The two caps for the SC simulation are 0.1uF 104MSR250K manufactured by ILLINOIS polyester film capacitors. - The treble bleed circuit looks like it is the same as Suhr use, with a 680pf cap and 150k resistor. This wouldn't be a surprise given GG's Suhr history - The pickup selection chart is what I got from online, so Im not totally sure its correc From what I have read and can see with the diagram it would appear that the Charvel Guthrie Govan wiring is not that radical. I guess I was expecting something more complicated given the range of sounds it can cover and how refined the controls felt. Can someone look at the wiring diagram above and advise if the pickup selection chart looks right based on the info I have given? If I change the pickups can I still leave all the cap values and will it likely work with the new pickups, or are these values normally set depending on the pickups characteristics? I will have a load more questions once I do some more homework. Thanks Ian Other info: - Bridge pickup 15kOhms - Middle Pickup 8.7kOhms - Neck pickup 10.5kOhms
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Post by newey on Feb 28, 2019 22:14:50 GMT -5
burgher79 (a/k/a/ Ian):
Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!
When you say that the wiring is not that radical- well, it's not trivial either.
Looks fine to me, but a second opinion is always desirable. On the cap switch, I can't tell whether the blue wire is meant to be connected to lug 2 only, or to both lugs 1 and 2 on the Superswitch. Either way, it seems a bit weird, because as is shown, the cap switch will only affect the neck pickup in positions 1 and 2 (or position 2 alone, depending on whether a connection to lug 1 is intended there). But on the bridge side, the "series junction" is always attached to the cap switch, and so the switch will affect all positions in which the bridge pickup is active.
I'd say, unless the new pickups are radically different, the same cap values will probably be fine. But this is one of those "season to taste" choices, you may well find yourself happier with a different value cap. The nice part is that you can set up a "cap substitution box" external to the guitar, and see which values sound best with a given set of pickups. And, you could choose differing values for the neck and bridge sides of the switch, depending on your ears' judgment.
There is a lot of snake oil nonsense a'web about capacitors for guitars. The type of capacitor likely makes no difference, other than some caps are manufactured to closer tolerances than other ones, meaning a better one might vary less plus or minus its nominal value. I tend to stay away from ceramic caps due to this, but I won't try to tell you that that's anything more than a subjective choice on my part. I use poly film caps pretty much across the board, they're small and a whole lot easier to deal with than all those "vintage" whatchamacallits.
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Post by Yogi B on Mar 1, 2019 12:44:08 GMT -5
On the cap switch, I can't tell whether the blue wire is meant to be connected to lug 2 only, or to both lugs 1 and 2 on the Superswitch. Either way, it seems a bit weird, because as is shown, the cap switch will only affect the neck bridge pickup in positions 1 and 2 (or position 2 alone, depending on whether a connection to lug 1 is intended there). But on the bridge neck side, the "series junction" is always attached to the cap switch, and so the switch will affect all positions in which the bridge neck pickup is active. I'm guessing you missed that in the diagram the upper humbucker is (admittedly confusingly) the bridge pickup. Another thing of note is that, looking at images of the GG signature models, the pole pieces and slugs are in the 'normal' symmetrical orientation. Taking that into account in conjunction with the colours present in the diagram, the pickup selection chart, and the assumption that the selections are hum-cancelling then, I think that either: - the inner coils are RWRP with respect to each other as are the outers, and the lead colours refer to the coil position (inner/outer) rather than magnetic polarity;
- or, things are as normal, but the pickup selection chart has one of the pickups backwards.
Back to the the lug 1/2 question: it's both, or at least lug 1 should definitely be included, however the further attachment to lug 2 seems redundant since the bridge series link is already tied to ground (via Pole 2). The neck pickup can be permanently attached to the semi-split / single coil emulation switch as the 5-way only splits the neck pickup via shorting the coil which would be in parallel with the capacitor and resistor arrangement. The bridge, on the other hand, requires the additional switching as the partially bypassed coil is selected in position 3 -- if left permanently connected the switch would still add the cap+res in parallel to that and the other selected (neck) coil giving a severe treble cut. Also burgher79, FYI the marking on the tone cap isn't a polarity indicator as such, but is rather an outer foil indicator, or at least it ought to be. It could however, just be arbitrary and there only for 'aesthetic' reasons.
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Post by newey on Mar 1, 2019 13:48:00 GMT -5
Yes, I did. And I compounded the error by assuming that the numbering of the lugs on the Superswitch was opposite to the indicated switch position numbers. Now the lug numbers make sense, too!
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burgher79
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Post by burgher79 on Mar 2, 2019 13:17:28 GMT -5
Thanks for the feedback guys. I have updated the drawing now with the proper pickup layout on the right, with neck HB at the top. Also the slug/pole configuration is now correct (Initially I couldn't figure out how to change them in DIYLC, but got there in the end). I have also made it clearer where the blue wires go in pole 4 of the switch - it does go into lug 1 & 2.
I have traced it through since and think that the new update is all correct, including the pickup selection chart. Here are my thoughts:
- Pole 1 & pole 3 switch in the hot input - Pole 2 switches the common point between the two pickups to ground - Pole 4 is for the SC simulation wiring
For the SC simulation circuitry: - In position 1, when its the full bridge HB only, pole 4 connects the SC simulation circuitry into the circuit (pole 4 lug 1 connects to pole 4 lug 0, pole 4 lug 0 then has a connection to pole 2 lug 2 via the blue wire). The SC simulation circuitry is connected to pole 2 lug 2 which is where the "series junction" (black and white cables) for the bridge pickup are connected. When in position 1, pole 2 lug 2 where the bridge series juntion are connected, the pole isn't grounding lug 2 so the pickup is in normal series connection. As its not grounded and the SC simulation circuitry in connected, when you flick the toggle switch back and forth you engage/disengage the SC simulation as required. Pole 4 is required to switch the SC circuitry in as the bridge HB uses combinations of both only the inner (position 2) and only the outer (position 3) coils in different pickup switch positions. - In position 5, when its the neck HB only, the SC simulation circuitry connects directly into pole 2 lug 3, where the neck PU series junction is. As the neck HB PU only uses the outer coil alone (positions 3 & 4), and never the inner coil alone, the SC simulation circuitry for the neck HB can be connected directly in to pole 2 lug 3, and will only have an effect when in position 5.
I can now understand why the wiring works, except for the SC simulation link between pole 4 lug 1 to 2. This does appear to be redundant as @yogi B has stated. In position 2 the bridge HB series junction point is grounded anyway so engaging the SC simulation toggle would make no difference.
Does all the above seem reasonable? It would appear to be in line with most of your comments (newly and Yogi B).
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Post by Yogi B on Mar 10, 2019 22:22:41 GMT -5
I can now understand why the wiring works, except for the SC simulation link between pole 4 lug 1 to 2. This does appear to be redundant as @yogi B has stated. Another observation is that since the component values of the single coil emulation are equal for both pickups, and both are never utilised at the same time, it could be done with just the one set -- switched to the relevant humbucker as necessary. I'm guessing that either they expected to need differing values in order to achieve the best results for each humbucker, but decided against it in practice; or they were planning some more complex variation on the eventual wiring. However, I would've thought that they should've worked that out when prototyping with GG, so maybe they just didn't see it.
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burgher79
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Post by burgher79 on Mar 11, 2019 16:57:19 GMT -5
I can now understand why the wiring works, except for the SC simulation link between pole 4 lug 1 to 2. This does appear to be redundant as @yogi B has stated. Another observation is that since the component values of the single coil emulation are equal for both pickups, and both are never utilised at the same time, it could be done with just the one set -- switched to the relevant humbucker as necessary. I'm guessing that either they expected to need differing values in order to achieve the best results for each humbucker, but decided against it in practice; or they were planning some more complex variation on the eventual wiring. However, I would've thought that they should've worked that out when prototyping with GG, so maybe they just didn't see it. Good spot @yogi_B. When I looked inside I fully expected the values to be different either cap and/or resistor too. Your suggestion of simpler wiring and single cap/res would be hooking the SC simulation switch common into common lug 0 of pole 4, then taking feeds from lug 1/pole 4 over to lug 2/pole 2, and from lug 5 pole 4 to lug 2/pole 3? I measured the DC resistance of both HBs and SC too and put them on the original post. I might move this to the wiring diagram area at some point too.
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Post by Yogi B on Mar 12, 2019 0:50:19 GMT -5
Your suggestion of simpler wiring and single cap/res would be hooking the SC simulation switch common into common lug 5 0 of pole 4, then taking feeds from lug 1/pole 4 over to lug 2/pole 2, and from lug 5 pole 4 to lug 2/pole 3? Pretty much, yep! (With a minor correction.)
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burgher79
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Post by burgher79 on Mar 12, 2019 2:37:47 GMT -5
Thanks Yogi B, yes it should have been to the common lug on the pole. I have corrected the mistake in the previous post. Cheers
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2019 8:29:02 GMT -5
LOVE the DRAWING and use of COLOURS easy to follow that way (and the numbers on the switch) Looking at this Filter Switching (100nF-1.5K) Up its Off, Down On and dose few things 1) Because of Pole2-Leg2 this brings in Bridge Filter. (Neck isnt in Play so filter doesnt matter) 2) Filter is Grounded both sides Pole2-Leg2 (Neck isnt in Play so filter doesnt matter) 3) Bridge Filter Not active Due to Pole4, Neck Filter Grounded Pole2-Leg3 4) Neck Filter Grounded Pole2-Leg4 5) Neck Filter due to Pole2-Leg3 Not being grounded 1) Bridge Filter 2) Non 3) Non 4) Non 5) Neck Filter ill take a second look later to see if i aint cooked up!
If this want you wanted, id just Link Pole2-2 to Pole4-1 and Pole2-3 to Pole4-5, Pole4-0 to 1P2T switch with the just a filter
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muletrain
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Post by muletrain on Dec 1, 2019 21:00:01 GMT -5
I've used this diagram and am getting a small volume change in the middle position when toggled, my GG model does nothing with the toggle when in the middle of the 5-way.
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kiari
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Post by kiari on Jun 20, 2021 19:12:17 GMT -5
Hi, Guys... Hope you're all good!
The purpose of this wiring is great, but I`m not there yet.
I`d like to come up with a variation of this diagram where I could get series-parallel (done by 2 mini toggles switches) at positions 1 and 5, instead of coil splitting (I`m assuming that the filter toggle switch splits the Humbuckers, which I don`t know if is correct, but I talk about it down bellow).
So I `d like to ask you for some help to fully understand this diagram before trying to move beyond it.
QUESTION 1: How does the Bridge PU is selected (along with Neck PU) on the position 3 of the Super Switch? What I can understand `position 3` of the Super Switch is doing is:
a) Pole 1 Lug 3 selects the Neck PU; b) Pole 2 Lug 2 splits the Bridge PU (via green wire that goes to ground on Pole 3 Lug 3); c) Pole 2 Lug 3 splits the Neck PU.
I don`t get how Bridge PU is being selected.
What am I missing? Is the 'Pole 3 Lug 3' responsable for selecting the Bridge PU while it splits the same Humbucker PU?
QUESTION 2: What is exactly the filter doing? Is it spliting the coil and adding low end ? Or is it meant to be a low cut filter only? Cause the first assumption is what I feel and listen from my Bridge PU when the filter is engaged, but I think the theory behind putting a capacitor or a resistor on the circuit is that low end is cut out. Also, I`m getting a typical single coil hum whe I engage the filter. The tone itself is wordefull: bright cut with a powerfull body, but the hum drives my crazy.
QUESTION 3: I aplied this diagram as it is to my H-S-H guitar and it`s great, althoug I`m getting some issues yet (the Neck HB it`s like on always at split mode, and the filter is working only for the Bridge PU, at Position 1, with the toggle switch engaged). Plus, there`s a dead spot between Positions 4 and 5 on my Super Switch. It`s a muted point with a little "click" that is noticeable when I go back and forth on it. Does anyone is experiencing something like that ?
Any help will be appreciated. Cheers!
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Post by newey on Jun 20, 2021 20:13:37 GMT -5
(I`m assuming that the filter toggle switch splits the Humbuckers, which I No. The HBs are split by pole 2 of the superswitch. The black/white pair from the bridge HB connects to lug 2 of pole 2, whicvh is then split via grounding the one coil from the commons of pole 2 to the back of the tone pot. From there, the bridge HB series pair then connects to Pole 4 common, and then connects to the cap/resistor pair via the toggle switch in positions 1 and 2 (why the cap and resistor values are the same for both sides of the toggle makes no sense to me). The Bridge HB series pair also connects to lug 3 of Pole 3, which then cuts to the opposite coil of the brideg HB at position 3. The Neck HB is similar, with the series junction wired to lugs 3 and 4 of Pole 2. The Bridge green (Screw coil "start") is permanently grounded, so that's one end of the circuit. The bridge HB's "series junction", as above, connects to lug 2 of pole 2, which is in turn wired to lug 3 of Pole 3. The common lug of Pole 3 is connected to the output via the volume pot. This connects the white wire to "hot", giving us the screw coil only (which is correct per the "Truth Table"). It's a filter only- one side does the neck, the other does the bridge. Why the cap/resistor values weren't varied between the two pickups I don't know. However, the cap/resistor switch is operative, for the bridge HB, at positions 1 and 2 via Pole 4 of the superswitch. At position 2, the bridge HB is already split, the switch just either adds in the filter or not. At position 1, however, the filter disengaged gives you the full HB, but flipping the switch doesn't cut the coil - you still have the bridge HB, but the screw coil will be partially bypassed by the filter network. If you are getting excessive hum at this position, that is not expected- there's a problem with the wiring somewhere. You should have full neck HB at position 5 of the 5-way switch. Do a "Tap test" to check to be sure you are getting both coils. If not, there is a wiring issue. The neck pickup should be split to the neck-side coils at positions 3 and 4. The filter switch affects the neck only at Position 3. The bridge pickup is the only pickup selected at position 1. See my discussion above as to the filter switch at that position.
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kiari
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Post by kiari on Jun 20, 2021 22:25:44 GMT -5
Thanks, Newey! That was really fast! I got better understanding about the filter with this article: www.premierguitar.com/diy/mod-garage/jazzmaster-mods . From that, I`ll try to experiment different values for the RC network, in order to balance towards more hum cancelling. And I will carefully (re)read and consider your inputs. So you`re saying that the filter does not work for Neck PU alone. My biggest wish with this wiring is to get those five Guthrie Govan positions + SC Simulaton on Neck PU alone and SC simulation on Bridge PU alone. Is that possible ?!
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Post by newey on Jun 21, 2021 5:29:08 GMT -5
So you`re saying that the filter does not work for Neck PU alone No, a mistake on my part. The filter operates on the neck when split at positions 3 and 4, and on the neck HB at position 5, just as with the bridge at position 1, it filters just the one coil of the HB.
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kiari
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Post by kiari on Jun 27, 2021 17:30:15 GMT -5
Why the cap/resistor values weren't varied between the two pickups I don't know. Why the cap/resistor values weren't varied between the two pickups I don't know What I understood from Guitar Premiere`s article I mentioned (https://www.premierguitar.com/diy/mod-garage/jazzmaster-mods) is that values of the capacitors and resistors on the RC network can vary by taste ranging from 1.5k up to 5k resistors and 0.01 µF up to 0.1 µF capacitors being: 1. The smaller the capacitance, the better the hum-cancelling feature. 2. The higher the capacitance, the better the single-coil emulation. 3. The smaller the Resistence, the better is the midcut at the SC simulation. Interesting enough, the application of this filter on this diagram made me think if we could scoop the mids of a humbucker at its full mode by adding a resistor at some point.
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kiari
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Post by kiari on Jun 27, 2021 17:35:49 GMT -5
What I got so far from our original RC Network ( R1,5k + Cap 0,1uF ) for the Bridge HB was a great single coil sound with a not very good hum canceling.
The article`s author said: " I think changing the values to a 3.9k resistor with a 0.047 µF cap will result in an authentic single-coil-like tone with no midrange cut, but with the benefit of greater resistance to hum and noise."
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admsavage
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Post by admsavage on Jan 12, 2022 8:37:27 GMT -5
Bump!
Happy New year all and a new newbie!
So I tried this wiring on my guitar. And I seem to be getting 2 issues. The first is that the Bridge PU sounds quite thin in full HB, it is also quite noisy and the SC simulation doesn't seem to affect that pick up...? The second issue is that Position 3, the outer coils of both HB's just completely doesn't work. No sound or anything.
I should note that I am left-handed and flipped the diagram, but I know now that I didn't really need to do that as the Super Switch is symmetrical, or rather it doesn't matter which way you orientate it in the body, just as long as the wiring is correct. The only thing that changes is the Pot wiring, which is fine because they work as intended.
Either way, I stripped all the wiring out, and rewired it, and was still getting the same issue. Is this diagram 100% up to date/scratch, and it is ought to work if wired right? I've been going nuts trying to figure out where I've gone wrong but everything seems to be right?
Any help would be so useful, cheers!
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burgher79
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Post by burgher79 on Jan 12, 2022 9:33:37 GMT -5
admsavage I am the original poster. I took photos and compared 3 different Charvel Guthrie Govans, the original birdseye plain top, the Ash version and the limited edition red one. I still have the red one. All three had the same wiring. The only difference was the Ash one was the only one with the partial coil split toggle switch. I have since completely rewired the red version using this diagram with the coil switch option added through push-pull tone pot and everything works as expected. On the superswitch, pole 1 and pole 3 feed the hot signals, and pole 2 feeds ground. In position 3, the neck HB outer coil (red) is fed to hot via pole 1 and it’s inner coil is grounded via pole 2. Similarly, the bridge HB outer coil (grey) is fed to hot via the green cable on pole 3, where the green cable in pole 3/position 3 connects the outer coil finish cable on pole 2/position 2. This will give both the outer coils of the humbuckers in those positions, which is correct. Given you have no sound from either pickup, it’s worth checking you aren’t inadvertently grounding the hot signal in position 3. Also, depending on the pickups you are using, you will need to check that you have adapted the colour coding correctly to ensure you are getting the correct Hot and Coil tap positions.
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admsavage
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Post by admsavage on Jan 12, 2022 9:48:34 GMT -5
Hello! Amazing work on the diagram btw, I'm not questioning the legitimacy of your diagram, I think it is correct, more that I think i'm doing something wrong with the wiring, and/or some of my components are out of whack! I suppose I wanted to 100% make sure it was correct is all!
Everything work's apart from Pos 3 (two outer HB coils.) I bought a new super switch anyway, as the old one has seen better days!
The Pup's im using are all Dimarzio, FRED in the neck, Gravity Storm in the bridge, and a Red Velvet in the middle. So the diagram should work. Maybe its cause I flipped the diagram? But as I said that shouldn't matter when it comes to the super switch.
Thanks for the reply though, and the troubleshooting, I'm gonna have a go at rewiring...again. Later!
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Post by newey on Jan 12, 2022 12:12:26 GMT -5
admsavage- Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!Everything work's apart from Pos 3 (two outer HB coils.) Are you also still having the problem with the bridge HB sounding "thin"?
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admsavage
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Post by admsavage on Jan 12, 2022 14:44:17 GMT -5
admsavage- Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!Everything work's apart from Pos 3 (two outer HB coils.) Are you also still having the problem with the bridge HB sounding "thin"? So the bridge humbucker sounds fine in full humbucker mode, I. E. Position 1. The coil splitting also has no effect on the bridge pick up at all in position 1 or 2, but the contrary is true for the neck humbucker. It works in positions 4 and 5, with the coil split working too. In position 3 it's silent, no sound from any pick up. Did the tapping trick and nothing! It just occurred to me that my control cavity has conductive paint in it. Could that be part of the problem too? Mystified by this whole thing!
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Post by newey on Jan 12, 2022 22:41:48 GMT -5
It just occurred to me that my control cavity has conductive paint in it. Could that be part of the problem too? Doubtful. But if you're concerned, you can cover it with electrical tape to be sure nothing is getting grounded improperly through it.
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admsavage
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Post by admsavage on Jan 13, 2022 19:10:23 GMT -5
So I rewired, and I'm still getting the same issue. But I think I've got some more details as to whats happening in what position. So the bridge HB in 5 position is only activating one, inner coil, that's why I thought it was sounding thin, because its only one coil on. The DPDT doesn't work in Position, 2, 3, 4, or 5... So it only works in the full neck position. The DPDT is new, as is the super switch, I replaced them because I was worried I burned them out from soldering and desoldering too often. So it seems that the DPDT only works in position 1, the neck HB. Doesn't work else where.
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Post by newey on Jan 13, 2022 21:26:46 GMT -5
Even though the switches are new, you should check them anyway with your meter before wiring them. Likewise check the coils of the pickups.
It sounds like you are having more than one issue with the wiring. The only way to troubleshoot these types of issues is to go through the wiring step-by-step with your meter. It's tough for us to be of much help without being able to physically look at the wiring. Sometimes close-up photos will help, but often times they show only a mess of "wire shaghetti".
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admsavage
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Post by admsavage on Jan 14, 2022 5:55:36 GMT -5
Yeah, I understand. Its vague at the best of times! I will multi meter everything. See how it goes! I appreciate the help though. If all else fails, I will attempt pictures.
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Post by sumgai on Jan 14, 2022 22:48:35 GMT -5
That, and the good ol' screwdriver tap test, should reveal where the problem lays. If you're not familiar with the tap test, here ya go: Screwdriver Pull-Off Test
HTH sumgai
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Post by brucegregori on Jan 16, 2022 13:09:29 GMT -5
Hey all,
So I ended up getting a GG guitar. But it doesn't seem wired correctly. Wondering if anyone can verify if this is correct.
Pos 5 - full hum, switch up single sim - this works as expected Pos 4 - neck,middle single style sounds - also works as expected However pos 3,2,1 seem odd
Pos 3 - Toggle down I get tele spank, Toggle up I get some odd tone rolled off sound almost like an old tele or clapton woman tone - Correct? pos 2 and pos 1 - seem fine with the toggle down, with the toggle up I seem to get very little sound difference.
In pos 1 it almost is so subtle that it doesnt sounds like SC sim....IT is apparent in pos 5.
Are pos 3 and 1 usually wired this way? The dealer seems to know nothing lol and charvel is not really too helpful...thanks y'all
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Post by brucegregori on Jan 16, 2022 14:11:41 GMT -5
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Post by newey on Jan 16, 2022 17:16:27 GMT -5
brucegregori- Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!There's no way to tell very much from your photo, too much traffic congestion in the cavity . . . If we go back to the first post in this thread, the pickup selections for each position are as follows, and the wire colors apparently follow DiMarzio colors: First off, please verify that you are indeed getting the required coils in each position by performing the "screwdriver tap test". Plug the guitar into an amp, and tap each coil with the blade of a screwdriver (or other magnetic metallic object). With Humbuckers, you will get a slight signal from tapping a coil even when it is "off", if the other coil is active, but you will get a louder signal from the active coil and the difference should be apparent. Also, please give us the lettering/numbering off of those capacitors from the toggle switch, as they appear different than the OP's. Also, are there resistors attached there in addition to the caps?
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