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Post by burgercrisis on Nov 14, 2019 14:25:56 GMT -5
So far I have three humbuckers with 4P6T rotaries on each to give the various basic mode - series, parallel, north, south, and two out of phase options, series and parallel as well. Then a phase switch (probably on push-pull dual band volume knobs set up with auto-adjusting treble bleed, that or on-off-ons)
I got all that figured out, the part I'm struggling on is the master pickup selector.
These are the modes I want to have but I'm having trouble making it possible. Since all the humbucking wiring is done on the rotaries, a single-coil layout would work from here on out, just can't find anything broad enough other than 94 sound or something like that which would undo all the work I already did. I want to keep the rotaries for simplicities sake.
If I have on-off-on phase switches
Neck + Middle + Bridge
Neck > Middle > Bridge
Neck > Bridge > Middle
Middle >Neck > Bridge
Middle > Bridge > Neck
Bridge > Neck > Middle
Bridge > Middle > Neck
Neck > Middle
Neck > Bridge
Middle > Neck
Middle > Bridge
Bridge > Neck
Bridge > Middle
So that would be 13 options and probably 4 pole.
Or if I use this section to turn pickups on-off in both parallel and series modes
Neck + Middle + Bridge
Neck + Middle
Neck + Bridge
Middle + Bridge
Neck
Middle
Bridge
Neck > Middle > Bridge
Neck > Bridge > Middle
Middle >Neck > Bridge
Middle > Bridge > Neck
Bridge > Neck > Middle
Bridge > Middle > Neck
Neck > Middle
Neck > Bridge
Middle > Neck
Middle > Bridge
Bridge > Neck
Bridge > Middle
This would be 19 modes and probably 4 pole.
The other, with on/off per pickup on the phase switches, should probably be able to use less pieces which would be great but not the biggest issue as long as I can barely squeeze it in.
However, the other will have deadspots when you turn the last pickup in the series modes off. Could be seen as intentional function but could be annoying for some, too but as long as the deadspots make sense as to how you get them when you're playing your guitar and not focused on your wiring its dope.
If anyone could help that'd be great, if not, we'll see how long it takes me lol
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Post by sumgai on Nov 14, 2019 15:49:12 GMT -5
bc,
Given that you haven't specified what kind of switch you'd like for the pup selector, I'm gonna take a flyer and refer you to the Mike Richardson Mod. Therein, you'll find that with one SuperSwitch and one 4PDT push-push (ala the Fender S1 switch, but available as a toggle too), you'll get several parallel and series combos. My bet is that you'd find the majority of them useful, if not all of them.
And quoting from your post of 14 monhts ago: ..... I suppose I don't necessarily want every single config, just the useful ones. I don't think I need inter-pickup phasing switches Well, your chart above does have a lot of duplicates. Discounting those dups brings your count down to just over 10, the number of possible combos in Mike's mod. Other folks have modded his mod to introduce a (slightly) different set of combos, so search around. Tell us if any of this works for you, or if you want a specific change to get to some particular combo, we'll try our best to make it happen.
Also, let me remind you of the most recent post in your HHH Super Wiring - Every option? thread, the one where tubejockey recommended that you pare everything down to no more than 10 combos. Like the nice man said, going on stage with much more than that can cause sudden onset of "too many options, what do I choose now?" syndrome! Some folks can get past that, some can't. YMMV. (And that was before you started talking about having 6 possible choices - per pickup! Man, I wish I had your powers of concentration and memory, that kind of decision-making would send me around the bend!!)
HTH
sumgai
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Post by sumgai on Nov 14, 2019 15:52:29 GMT -5
And yes, before g-f-b can get started, I'll openly admit that I'm already around the bend!  |
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Post by thetragichero on Nov 14, 2019 16:33:37 GMT -5
probably not helpful, but with that many permutations I'd be looking into putting a battery and some sort of microprocessor/logic chips. gotta be a nightmare to troubleshoot/try to debug
best of luck
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Post by sumgai on Nov 14, 2019 21:41:45 GMT -5
trag,
In fact, this kind of thing is easier to do in digital than analog! It doesn't take a microprocessor, all that's needed are some logic gate arrays that are directly programmable, or erasable and re-programmable (the latter being a bit more expensive, but they allow for custom mods without additional purchases).
As we have a Truth Table in our analog world, the logic gate is really nothing more than a look-up table. It's programmed to look for a condition, and respond with a desired result. In our case, an example would be "if this switch and this switch are both flipped up, then send the signal from the Neck and the Bridge, in parallel, out to the controls", etc. Along with "and" of course, we can set conditions using "or", "if not", etc. These are the exact same conditions we contemplate when we design an analog circuit by hand.
An Arduino (really a tiny but powerful microprocessor) can actually do all that for us, with the added benefit that we can program it in nearly any computer language we might like. Perhaps a bit more investment at first, but the ability to quickly change things around allows one to experiment waaaay beyond what a soldering iron can accomplish in an afternoon. 
About the most difficult thing in all this would be to anticipate user errors, and build in a "default state" for when those occur. For instance, perhaps you have a "digital" switch to put one pup in parallel with another, and a second switch to make that same pair combine in series. Flick both "on", and you have a short circuit, OIOW, a dead guitar. Digitally, we'd prevent that with a condition of "If both switches are on, set the signal path to parallel". Essentially, to achieve series, parallel must be off. This is, of course, just an example of how one must think when setting up conditions - anticipate the worst user errors, and program around them so the fool doesn't look like one. 
HTH
sumgai
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Post by burgercrisis on Nov 15, 2019 7:24:26 GMT -5
Thanks! Yeah that other thread was a while ago. I still don't have the guitar I'm planning on really wiring this for, I may put it on a beat up Yamaha practice set guitar but it needs a new neck or neck work so bad its mostly firewood so I haven't gotten around to finishing it. I'm technically close but the wiring is a rats nest at this point! I think I'm going to start over with a PCB board to reduce my wire count and, just one wire per connector, I have several on some as is and its just a mess... exponentially more work on every connection I make lol. I actually did have the 6-way rotary in the other thread worked out, maybe I didn't talk about that part really but thought I did heh. On the strat-style faceplate I'll barely have enough room for all the parts and to orient them so they make sense as to which pickup they effect, but I also wasn't sure if I had what I wanted for the master switching section. What I think I decided, since many of them are going to be practically the same and some of the series+parallel options may be rarely used, is to use the 15-way wiring from guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/8417/13-wiring-single-coils-switches, after looking around on here quite a bit. So 15 ways to orient 3 pickups each with 6 modes themselves... =3106 technically unique combinations (not including ones that vary pickups that don't exist), not including the phase switches... which would raise it to 21,672 if my math is all on. When I get some more money I think I'm going to try a GFS neck or something on the Yamaha. Maybe I'll just get a prefinished nut and accept the fretbuzz but its really not worth having it actually worked on and I don't have quite the tools to fix it. And yeah, it'll be a lot to remember... but I don't have to remember every single configuration... Just the ones on the master pickup selector and the general scheme or the individual pickups. It'll be crazy but I'm down. |
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Post by reTrEaD on Nov 15, 2019 12:30:14 GMT -5
I won't try to dissuade you from creating a scheme which results in an extensive number of possibilities. But I think you need to consider what sort of switching will lead to problems and what combinations are redundant. If I understand correctly, you'll be using a 4P6T for 'local' switching on each HB. That should be fairly straightforward. I don't think Series out-of-phase for the two coils of the HB will be terribly useful when just one pickup is used, but JohnH reports that does have some utility for hum-canceling when placed in parallel with a single coil from another pickup. Parallel out-of-phase is probably less useful. So *maybe* a 4P5T superswitch could be used for the local switching for each HB, if you want to omit the Parallel out-of-phase and just have 5 possibilities for each local connection. I'm not saying you should. Only that you could. If you're set on having Parallel out-of-phase for local HB configuration, consider doing that in the 'half out of phase' variety. Where one of the two coils has a capacitor in series with it for this configuration.
on-off-on phase switches I'll sum this up in a single word: Don't. Unless your master switching arrangement has ONLY series combinations or ONLY parallel combinations, you'll have different requirements for the 'off' position of the switch. This will lead to complexities beyond belief. Keep your phase switches simple. on-on DPDT.
Master switchingNeck > Middle will sound exactly the same as Middle > Neck Include one or the other, not both. You list the same kind of redundancy when putting all three pickups in parallel. 4-pole, multi-position rotary switch:There's a limit to what you can accomplish with this when you have three pickups. IF you design around the possibility of having all three pickups in parallel, that leaves only one pole remaining to assign to the (-) wire of one of the pickups. Only one pickup will ever have the possibility of being in series with any of the other pickups. IF you design around the possibility of any pickup being in series with the others, at least two of your pickups must have the (-) wire assigned to a pole on the master selector. You can have all three of your pickups in series, but you'll only have two parallel paths possible. With a 4-pole master switch you'll need to decide which is more important, then design the basic architecture around that. IF you want the full gamut of possibilities, you'll need at least 5 poles on your master rotary. There is no other way to get there. |
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Post by burgercrisis on Nov 15, 2019 15:07:23 GMT -5
Thank you. I somehow was led into thinking that the sound wound be somewhat different depending on the order or series relations between pickups. I was definitely expecting at least 2 switches for the master switching section. If I use 4p3t with a 4p5t I should have most of the available options, like here res.cloudinary.com/a-j/image/upload/v1539513312/GN2/8417/15-way_2.pngAnd I suppose I don't need on-off switching on the phase switch since this scheme does include the single pickup options |
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Post by reTrEaD on Nov 15, 2019 16:28:39 GMT -5
From the URL of that image, I would expect that was drawn by Yogi B . Or at least uploaded by him. That appears to use a 4PDT on-on-on in the left side of that drawing. It should be possible to use a 4P3T rotary to accomplish the same goals as the 4PDT on-on-on, and the shunting of coils (noted in certain positions on the table) might even be eliminated. |
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Post by burgercrisis on Nov 15, 2019 17:53:03 GMT -5
Woops I meant 4PDT. Will the shunting really cause any issues in that layout? It looks like it only shunts the pickups that aren't used at the time which shouldn't be audible, right? And yeah, it was Yogis diagram, his improvement on 15-way wiring from this thread.Also, uploaded is the newest iteration of my wiring. I didn't really update any of the side notes yet. But as is, this layout will take 3 4p6t rotaries, one per pickup 1 4p5t rotary OR blade for pickup selector 1 4PDT rotary or slide or whatever for series/parallel (both sides have combo settings) 3 volume knobs, one per pickup (push-pull for phase switches) 1 tone knob 1 12 way rotary for capswitch There's no problem with having volume pots (treble bleed set) immediately after each pickup, before the wiring diagram, is there? Like, if I'm in all series mode, will having volume pots before the series wiring mess the sound up, or will it allow me to vary volume in the series multiplication of both sides of the "equation"? I might consider seeing if I can wire a push-pull or switch to bypass the volume knobs or maybe even change it from individual volumes to master. Would be interesting to incorporate a switch that can affect how your volume and tone knobs interact. Would probably take a pretty fat switch or microprocessing of some type though but cool idea I might look into  |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2019 7:33:27 GMT -5
hmm looks like my fun and games from that drawing  Im not good with TEXT and back story, myself just the KEY points but i'll try and read this circuit the Cap bit got me smiling  C9 - 39nF C14 - 82nF C18 - 120nF So a range of 15nF - 120nF The 4P6T .. the Number you suggested 71BT-30-AB2 seem very hard to come by and very big other make is RS26-4P15 (think thats what its called) im having a hard time find any thing nice Looking at B1-B6 all go to PIN 5 of the 2P2T (On-Off-On) switch, doesnt seem you need this Pole so 3P6T! 1)+Bottom 2)+Top2+Bottom 3)-Top2+Bottom 4) NONE! 5)-Top&+Bottom 6)+Top A10 seems to Go no where (no Join Dot) but ENDS at the line from A4! at a guess A10 should go to Pin2 and A5 to Pin5 I wounder if the 2P2T On-Off-On would be better after the Volume/Bleed system (the Path of Lease resistance!) but lets see what happens after P1-3 POS/NEG lot of WIRE and big Switches inside this unit! |
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Post by reTrEaD on Nov 16, 2019 9:53:15 GMT -5
Will the shunting really cause any issues in that layout? It looks like it only shunts the pickups that aren't used at the time which shouldn't be audible, right? A shunted coil should affect the tone of the (physicallly) adjacent pickup very slightly. Whether that effect is audible is up for debate. My take on it: Avoid it when you can but it's not a deal-breaker by any means. There's no problem with having volume pots (treble bleed set) immediately after each pickup, before the wiring diagram, is there? Like, if I'm in all series mode, will having volume pots before the series wiring mess the sound up, or will it allow me to vary volume in the series multiplication of both sides of the "equation"? When you use individual volume controls for each pickup, life is good when you combine the pickups in series. When you combine them in parallel, not-so-much. Consider what happens when one of the volume controls of the selected pickups is at fully counter-clockwise. You have a dead short between the wiper and the CCW lug of the pot (ground in a parallel combination). So you also have a dead short between the tip and sleeve of the output jack. No sound from the other selected pickups. Some guitarist take advantage of this wart (which exists on a LP with separate volumes) to produce a stutter effect. However with a rotary switch as the master pickup selector, that would be clumsy. Also in a parallel configuration, when the volume control for one of the selected pickups is rotated very slightly CCW and one or more of the other pickups are at full volume, the resistance in series with the reduced volume pickup will play a much larger factor in reducing that pickup's contribution to the sound. This is because the full-volume pickup presents a significant load compared to the series resistance. If you do choose to have individual volume controls for each pickup, you might prefer to use a linear rather than an audio taper for your volume controls. For what it's worth, Gibson uses a 300k linear pot for the volume controls in most of their 2V 2T wiring schemes. archive.gibson.com/Files/schematics/ES335-ES175.pdf |
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Post by burgercrisis on Nov 17, 2019 2:20:30 GMT -5
The 4P6T .. the Number you suggested 71BT-30-AB2 seem very hard to come by and very big Oh, I just used the part number that was in my eagle library for a switch with such outs. I'm going to use either the smallest rotaries I can find for all (which will still be big of course), maybe with one or two blades. I might also hold off on this til I have my Jazzmaster finished, as that will have the cavity space for this for sure. other make is RS26-4P15 (think thats what its called) im having a hard time find any thing niceLooking at B1-B6 all go to PIN 5 of the 2P2T (On-Off-On) switch, doesnt seem you need this Pole so 3P6T! 1)+Bottom 2)+Top2+Bottom 3)-Top2+Bottom 4) NONE! 5)-Top&+Bottom 6)+Top A10 seems to Go no where (no Join Dot) but ENDS at the line from A4! at a guess A10 should go to Pin2 and A5 to Pin5 Sorry, that was unclear! A10 connects to A6. And you seem to be correct, I suppose I don't need the 4P6T and 3P6T will do! at a guess A10 should go to Pin2 and A5 to Pin5 I have A10 to pin5 and A5 to pin2! I think that is correct, it should be something like series and parallel on the outside, split coil modes next to those and then out of phase options in the middle if I remember correctly. I'll have to dig out the scrap paper I wounder if the 2P2T On-Off-On would be better after the Volume/Bleed system (the Path of Lease resistance!) but lets see what happens after P1-3 POS/NEG lot of WIRE and big Switches inside this unit! You may be right. I thought phase switches typically happened before volume systems, usually right after the pickup before resistance happened. Am I mistaken? Will the shunting really cause any issues in that layout? It looks like it only shunts the pickups that aren't used at the time which shouldn't be audible, right? A shunted coil should affect the tone of the (physicallly) adjacent pickup very slightly. Whether that effect is audible is up for debate. My take on it: Avoid it when you can but it's not a deal-breaker by any means. There's no problem with having volume pots (treble bleed set) immediately after each pickup, before the wiring diagram, is there? Like, if I'm in all series mode, will having volume pots before the series wiring mess the sound up, or will it allow me to vary volume in the series multiplication of both sides of the "equation"? When you use individual volume controls for each pickup, life is good when you combine the pickups in series. When you combine them in parallel, not-so-much. Consider what happens when one of the volume controls of the selected pickups is at fully counter-clockwise. You have a dead short between the wiper and the CCW lug of the pot (ground in a parallel combination). So you also have a dead short between the tip and sleeve of the output jack. No sound from the other selected pickups. Some guitarist take advantage of this wart (which exists on a LP with separate volumes) to produce a stutter effect. However with a rotary switch as the master pickup selector, that would be clumsy. Also in a parallel configuration, when the volume control for one of the selected pickups is rotated very slightly CCW and one or more of the other pickups are at full volume, the resistance in series with the reduced volume pickup will play a much larger factor in reducing that pickup's contribution to the sound. This is because the full-volume pickup presents a significant load compared to the series resistance. If you do choose to have individual volume controls for each pickup, you might prefer to use a linear rather than an audio taper for your volume controls. For what it's worth, Gibson uses a 300k linear pot for the volume controls in most of their 2V 2T wiring schemes. archive.gibson.com/Files/schematics/ES335-ES175.pdfThank you! I totally forgot the most basic things in trying to figure all this out. Gibson guitars eliminate this issue of shunting all signal to ground via a single volume pot by having individual tone pots, don't they? What if I put a single high-value cap in series after the volumes? The filtering would probably be inaudible and it should have a similar effect right? . Also, realized I messed up the last upload. Heres what I meant to update, with some added clarity on the A10/A6 situation.  Also attached below is another picture highlighting one half of the pickup connections  |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2019 6:21:05 GMT -5
I think what you want 1) +Bottom (-Bottom) 2) +Top2+Bottom (-Top2-Bottom) 3) -Top2+Bottom (+Top2-Bottom) 4) +Top&+Bottom (-Top&-Bottom) 5) -Top&+Bottom (+Top&-Bottom) 6) +Top (-Top)  Ive Ringed two points, one a JOINT that Links Both sides of your 2P2T (on/off/on) and another where there is no Joint <I've got to get used to this APP> 
C9 and C14 there is no 40nF or 80nF there is a 39nF and a 82nF WOW going to have to Explain what the MASTER PLAN is for the Second half of the switching  "You may be right. I thought phase switches typically happened before volume systems, usually right after the pickup before resistance happened. Am I mistaken?" I was Worried about FEEDBACK going on to the VOLUME from other Pickups.. ie if you had NECK to ZERO .. the Middle/Bridge would be Grounded even if the Neck is ON or OFF.. So On/Off/On the Off doesnt really do much for it... you might as well use the PUSH/Pull on the Volume Knobs and have On/On for the phase Could use a 4P2T On/Off/On switch (getting a bit bigger again) and it will turn off the Signal on the other end of the volume so no feedback (Other volumes upsetting other pickups, when not active) |
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Post by reTrEaD on Nov 17, 2019 10:33:35 GMT -5
Thank you! I totally forgot the most basic things in trying to figure all this out. Gibson guitars eliminate this issue of shunting all signal to ground via a single volume pot by having individual tone pots, don't they? What if I put a single high-value cap in series after the volumes? The filtering would probably be inaudible and it should have a similar effect right? No, the '50s Gibson wiring had separate tone controls after the separate volume controls and they still suffered from the malady of one volume at zero killing all sound when both pickups are selected. The placement of the tone controls won't eliminate this problem. If you want separate volume controls you'll have to accept this wart will be present when the pickups are combined in parallel. You could wire your volume controls 'backward' such that the pickup is connected to the wiper and the CW terminal is used as the output going to the pickup selector switch. But that's absolutely dreadful! When one pickup is selected and you begin rotating its volume control counter-clockwise from '10', the tone is severely dulled before even modest reduction in volume is achieved. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2019 13:06:53 GMT -5
| +B |  | -B | | +T +B | +T | +T -B | | -T +B | -T | -T -B | | +T 2 +B | +T | +T 2 -B | | -T 2 +B | -T | -T 2 -B | | KILL | KILL | KILL |
Sadly it would mean that when its in this stat on a 5T switch it would ground the TOP of the Volume!! so maybe best a 4P6T  Now if you had a 2P2T (on/off/on) it would mean the +T 2 B when in the OFF would just hang (not a bad thing!) Hanging wire isnt that bad in my books, I could hold a 40000v POWER line and not feel a thing, but if i have some thing else touching me or i am the least resistance to ground, then i feel it (Birds on a Power line)  and you could use a 4P6T and use one of the Poles to TURN off the Volume when not in use ie Output from the Volume goes to the 4th Pole Common and 1-5 Go on to the OTHER Switching 6 goes to Ground on ALL Poles |
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Post by burgercrisis on Nov 18, 2019 2:50:55 GMT -5
Woops! My pictures are so unclear as to what is going on. I really am a silly goose  Here I truly highlighted, in a more visible color, the connections for the 6 way rotaries immediately after the pickups  As for where I got the bit at the end, that is what I opted for as my master pickup switching section (my MASTER PLAN  ) which I got here.Seems to have the most options I can find for two switches. Thank you! I totally forgot the most basic things in trying to figure all this out. Gibson guitars eliminate this issue of shunting all signal to ground via a single volume pot by having individual tone pots, don't they? What if I put a single high-value cap in series after the volumes? The filtering would probably be inaudible and it should have a similar effect right? No, the '50s Gibson wiring had separate tone controls after the separate volume controls and they still suffered from the malady of one volume at zero killing all sound when both pickups are selected. The placement of the tone controls won't eliminate this problem. If you want separate volume controls you'll have to accept this wart will be present when the pickups are combined in parallel. You could wire your volume controls 'backward' such that the pickup is connected to the wiper and the CW terminal is used as the output going to the pickup selector switch. But that's absolutely dreadful! When one pickup is selected and you begin rotating its volume control counter-clockwise from '10', the tone is severely dulled before even modest reduction in volume is achieved. Hm. So I would have to do something more complex if I wanted to eliminate this factor, such as incorporating active buffers in the circuit to isolate each volume stage. I think I'll take the alternative route and accept this. I think what you want 1) +Bottom (-Bottom) 2) +Top2+Bottom (-Top2-Bottom) 3) -Top2+Bottom (+Top2-Bottom) 4) +Top&+Bottom (-Top&-Bottom) 5) -Top&+Bottom (+Top&-Bottom) 6) +Top (-Top) Ive Ringed two points, one a JOINT that Links Both sides of your 2P2T (on/off/on) and another where there is no Joint <I've got to get used to this APP>
C9 and C14 there is no 40nF or 80nF there is a 39nF and a 82nF WOW going to have to Explain what the MASTER PLAN is for the Second half of the switching "You may be right. I thought phase switches typically happened before volume systems, usually right after the pickup before resistance happened. Am I mistaken?" I was Worried about FEEDBACK going on to the VOLUME from other Pickups.. ie if you had NECK to ZERO .. the Middle/Bridge would be Grounded even if the Neck is ON or OFF.. So On/Off/On the Off doesnt really do much for it... you might as well use the PUSH/Pull on the Volume Knobs and have On/On for the phase Could use a 4P2T On/Off/On switch (getting a bit bigger again) and it will turn off the Signal on the other end of the volume so no feedback (Other volumes upsetting other pickups, when not active) I realized I don't really need off switches on the pickups themselves if I'm going to incorporate a switching scheme that can turn any of them on or off on its own to begin with! What's this about 40000v and hanging wires? If hanging wires is dangerous and shunting them sounds bad, what do? Granted I think I will use the above 15-way wiring, and since that switches after the volume stages, it should have no issues when it shunts a pickup to ground or bypasses it, right? |
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Post by newey on Nov 18, 2019 6:34:58 GMT -5
By "hanging wires", I assume you mean connections which are "hanging from hot", that is, pickup coils that remain attached to the "hot" output while the ground side is disconnected. These are not "dangerous", but may induce some noise into the signal, so we try to avoid having hanging coils when it can be avoided. Sometimes it can't, and one just lives with it.
Shunting coils is one way to avoid having hanging coils; the other way is disconnecting the coil at both ends. There is a slight chance this could affect tone, but as RT noted, not likely to be audible. This is not an issue over which you should lose sleep.
As for 40K Volts, I don't know where that came into this discussion, but 40K volts is roughly what the spark coil on your lawnmower engine generates to make the spark plug fire. It is many orders of magnitude greater than anything you will encounter under the pickguard of your guitar. The tiny voltages generated by your guitar pickups pose no electrical danger, we can safely "wire away" inside our guitars. Getting inside your amp and tinkering is a whole 'nother subject, there safety concerns mean one should definitely know what one is doing.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2019 11:35:37 GMT -5
My point was a hanging wire doesnt matter , that it only matters when it's compared to some thing else.
That you can lick mains , as long as you don't have a voltage difference touching you (don't try this tho)
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