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Post by frets on Dec 4, 2019 18:18:26 GMT -5
I have worked on this Tone control, dual gang no detente pot with on-on-on mini toggle varitone switch for a while. It is intended to provide 5 tones. A frumpier version is on the internet as a bass cut/treble cut. This version is intended to be a right-left vice-verse varitone However the switch from .022 to .015 is the same tone, as is .0056 to .015. I can not figure this out and I am sure it is simple or just not possible with a toggle.  |
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Post by sumgai on Dec 5, 2019 11:58:07 GMT -5
frets, Where's the input? Don't make us assume, you know what that means....  And while I'm at it, what's this ".015" in the middle of the switch? Is there supposed to be a capacitor hooked up in there somewhere? Without even a rudimentary image of a cap, like those you've shown to the side, I'm forced to make another assumption, and in this business, that's a cardinal no-no. (Unless spelled out, such as a statement like "Ground wires not shown for clarity", or the like.) sumgai |
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Post by frets on Dec 5, 2019 12:50:59 GMT -5
Hey Sumgai,
First, thanks for taking the time to inspect my diagram. As a tone pot (which I will label) the input would be from the middle lug of the bottom wafer demarcated by a red line (Wire) that has adjacent wording “to volume.” So, the input would be to lug 1 of the volume pot.
As for the .015, when the on-on-on toggle is in the middle position, I am receiving a tone value when the pot is rotated to the left. I assumed such was a series interaction between .047 and .022. If I’m wrong about that, please let me know. If such is the true, I’ll state so on the diagram.
Upon rectification of my oversights, I hope you will peruse the schematic again; and, assist me in remedying, if the stated issues with the configuration (or other members)
Thanks for your input.
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Post by JohnH on Dec 5, 2019 14:11:57 GMT -5
is it intended that the red wire and the diagonal thin black wire are connected on the middle lug of the lower pot? Or does the red wire pass above on its way to volume, not connected to the lower pot?
But overall, is it right that the intent is that the whole she-bang replaces a normal tone circuit, ie it has two outward connections, one to the volume pot hot lug and the other to ground? And the switch is intended to engage and combine the caps to create various value to go through the inductor in series, and the pot controls how much series resistance is added too, also sweeping between cap values?
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Post by frets on Dec 5, 2019 15:44:11 GMT -5
The red wire is hot and connected to the middle lug of the bottom wafer. The thin black line is a wire connection from the middle lug top wafer to the left lug of the bottom wafer. The whole enchilada replaces the tone circuit with the red to volume, black to ground. The switch is intended to engage the caps in conjunction with the pot to produce tone values from right to left sweep using the pot. I whipped one up in the last 15 minutes on an Alpha Taiwan A500k and took the photos below. I hope this clarifies. Thanks to you John and Sumgai.    |
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Post by JohnH on Dec 5, 2019 16:12:44 GMT -5
Ok, so the photos confirm that the red wire is only connected to one middle lpot ug, not both? If so, then in drawing such diagrams, best to not have wires passing over lugs they don't connect to.
I need to sketch a schematic to get my head around what it does....
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Post by frets on Dec 5, 2019 19:15:14 GMT -5
John, I corrected some errors and removed the 10 moHm resistors just for clarity sake. They still are part of the circuit, I just excluded them. This one replaces the original diagram and I trust it will be easier to get an idea of the design and where I’ve gone awry.  |
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Post by sumgai on Dec 5, 2019 23:21:13 GMT -5
frets,
For the purposes of designing a circuit, it is preferable to leave the mechanical aspects out of the loop, so to speak. This frees us up to consider only the electrical stuff, such as what connects where, what values to use, and so on.
Here's what you've shown us so far, as determined from your diagrams, photos and textual descriptions:
The reason I'm doing this is to illustrate (for both you and other readers) that the proper drawing can eliminate all of the discussion we had above, where we asked you to clarify some things that were unclear. Yes, this is abbreviated from your original (no suppressor resistors), but the rest of it is intact, and I think you'll agree, very clear as to your intent. The only other thing I left out, on purpose, were the component values. Sometimes they can be included right on the drawing, and here would've been acceptable; other times they should be in a separate table, hopefully appearing near the diagram. But in either case, the lack of values actually frees an experimenter from any feeling of "locked in" - they can, and should, try various values in combination.
BTW, I must say, this is a very good example of being willing to experiment well beyond the norm. I like what you've done here - it's simple, it gives variety, it's not expensive to build, and it could easily be placed into the guitar in a "stealth" fashion... what's not to like? 
Here, have one of my exceedingly rare "Likes".
HTH
sumgai
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Post by frets on Dec 6, 2019 0:36:58 GMT -5
Sumgai,
I so appreciate you transposing my diagrams into the “real deal.” I have yet to master the technical drawing aspect and frankly am afraid of the errors I would make. But you’re spot on correct because I’ve already futzed up the first drawing diagram. No longer will I present a circuit in a literal format. I may a solitary tone pot concept, but not a more involved circuit. I’m almost there. Your interpreting my concept into the correct format helps me make the cognitive connection to evolve to drawing using an engineering approach. I imagine most on the forum had to take that step.
Thank you...
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Post by sumgai on Dec 6, 2019 3:04:00 GMT -5
... I .... frankly am afraid of the errors I would make. Don't be. That's why we're here, to help you get past those errors, and to teach you how to avoid making them repeatedly.
Some did, some came already well versed in the art, and the rest have never bothered, for whatever reason.
There have been some well-over-the-top renditions (everything done by ChrisK literally flys to mind), and some really dirt simple hand-drawings, probably captured with a cell-phone's camera and then uploaded - JohnH has done more than his fair share of this, and every one of them is perfectly readable.
And there have been some real headache inducers. Trust me, your contributions are not nearly so bad that I simply pass on the poster's questions. (And no, I won't name names.) But it really doesn't matter.... what counts is clarity. Color goes only so far, as John pointed out with the the seemingly connected wipers of each deck of the concentric pot.
Regardless of what you use (program or hand-drawn) or what style you use (schematic or layout), clarity is the name of the game. I, and I think most long-time contributors here, would rather see a crude drawing done in MS Paint (a certain someone will cop to doing this, early in his career here  ), so long as it's clear, and even if there are mistakes.... over a professional-looking one that's really an indecipherable rat's nest.
Now, the real reason we Nutz get on about this: For most modders, a practical education in electronics is not gonna happen. They just want to fling some solder somewhere, and pray that it all works like is said on the webpage. Fine, we're OK with that. But when those kinds of people encounter a layout diagram, they rightly feel that if they don't follow the diagram to the exact letter/decimal point, then all Hell will let out for Breakfast. As you know by now, that's just not true, excepting in some really esoteric situations.
And I say, why should those part-time modders who just want an extra tone for their stage act be bound by what someone else drew, as if it were Gospel? Why can't they be free to lay out their circuit/components as they feel will work better/best for them? Hence the desire to display the "workings" behind the mod, and let the modder implement them at will. Schematic, then layout... then Mojo Tone! Copious quantities of joy in Mudville, and all that.
HTH
sumgai
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Post by stevewf on Jun 11, 2021 12:14:43 GMT -5
... I .... frankly am afraid of the errors I would make. Don't be. That's why we're here, to help you get past those errors, and to teach you how to avoid making them repeatedly. As a pretty new member a couple years down the road, I found this post very welcoming. Thanks! I hope I end up becoming a valuable contributor, as the OP has done. The encouraging vibe here will help us see if I can! |
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), so long as it's clear, and even if there are mistakes.... over a professional-looking one that's really an indecipherable rat's nest.
