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Post by ourclarioncall on Dec 11, 2019 15:45:37 GMT -5
I assumed without thinking that I have wired both pickups in parallel. But something doesn’t sound right. the way I wired it is I connected a bit of terminal block to the hot and ground of the output jack (being careful to mark on the wire which is which) then I connected both hots from the 2 pickups to the hot side of the terminal block and the 2 grounds + the bridge ground to the ground side of the terminal block. the only two options I can think of are 1. I’ve wired them in series 2. they are actually in parallel but because they are wired directly to the output jack (via terminal block) with no volume or tone pots to tame the high end then the two pickups together are still quite punchy and aggressive
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Post by ourclarioncall on Dec 11, 2019 18:19:54 GMT -5
I have 3 cheap single coil pickups that and with the guitar. I think they are what you call bar magnet type. Rectangular magnets are glued on the bottom
I used two of the pickups but didn’t know which ones I used and I also didn’t know if the middle one was RWRP
But getting some of my sons magnets out of his cupboard to test the pickups , I believe I have installed the bridge and middle pickups as the were originally setup in the pickguard
So I don’t know if that has anything to do with anything , other than making them hum cancelling as they should be.
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Post by ashcatlt on Dec 11, 2019 20:03:21 GMT -5
It’s parallel. Series would have one wire from each pickup connected to the jack and the other two just connected together - exactly like a 4-wire humbucker. You didn’t really describe your issue. Two pickups in parallel should be a bit brighter than either on its own, and about the same overall volume. Series would be nearly twice as loud and noticeably darker (again, like a humbucker). But that’s assuming they’re actually in phase. Out of phase (whether series or parallel) should be quieter and thinner (less low frequencies and probably weird midrange). Series Out of Phase can be kind of cool, but Parallel Out of Phase spells POoP for a reason. Edit - for info on how to determine string sensing phase follow this link though it’d probably do you some good to just try swapping one of the pickups’ wires around to actually hear the difference for yourself
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Post by ourclarioncall on Dec 11, 2019 20:29:14 GMT -5
It’s parallel. Series would have one wire from each pickup connected to the jack and the other two just connected together - exactly like a 4-wire humbucker. You didn’t really describe your issue. Two pickups in parallel should be a bit brighter than either on its own, and about the same overall volume. Series would be nearly twice as loud and noticeably darker (again, like a humbucker). But that’s assuming they’re actually in phase. Out of phase (whether series or parallel) should be quieter and thinner (less low frequencies and probably weird midrange). Series Out of Phase can be kind of cool, but Parallel Out of Phase spells POoP for a reason. Edit - for info on how to determine string sensing phase follow this link though it’d probably do you some good to just try swapping one of the pickups’ wires around to actually hear the difference for yourself I’m getting a little bit lost I think as I have no stand frame of reference I work as a guitar teacher and I’m used to playing with certain guitars and amps In a certain room. Here I’m at home in a small room with a different type of amp that is new and I haven’t played much I wish before I started I had got two cheap strat copy guitars , one to mod and the other to contrast and compare those mods . I’m a strat fan so the strat sounds are firmly imbedded in my head. I actually not a big fan of single coils on there own, I prefer the 2 and 4 (so called out of phase ) position sounds as they are a bit less aggressive . The issue for me is I have two single coils wired in parallel yet I’m not hearing that familiar mellower scooped kind of sound . I do have the pickups placed in odd positions which would be the gaps in between the neck and middle pup and the middle and bridge pup , but still I would be able to tell . The only thing I can think of is that it’s because they are both direct wired to the output jack and the lack of pots is changing the sound, taking it past my familiar boundaries. Ok, il take your advice, il wire them in series to compare the difference Then il maybe add in the volume and tone pots to see if it brings it back to what I think it should be Ideally I’m going to buy another guitar and leave it stock so I can compare what removing tone and volume pots is really doing to the overall sound
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Post by ourclarioncall on Dec 14, 2019 11:51:59 GMT -5
oh boy, that was intense! just thought I’d give you all a laugh at my soldering skills haha. Man those switches are tight to get into i managed to wire up a series/parallel switch .... and it worked ! I’m amazed it did, but now I have a much better frame of reference. it sounds a bit Brian May as I have close to bridge and middle in series if I want but the front pup is a bit further forward . i think the tip of my soldering iron was dead and that made it much more difficult to get into , I had to use the fat edge about a centimetre from the tip to get any heat. It’s an old iron and the tip is bent. must be better to wire switches with little vices and things
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Post by ourclarioncall on Dec 14, 2019 12:03:37 GMT -5
Video comparison
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Post by thetragichero on Dec 14, 2019 13:14:25 GMT -5
all i hear is a bunch of reverb and the acoustic sound of the strings. clear, clean sound from the amp might help us determine what's going on in an A/B test but this just has me feeling spacey
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Post by ourclarioncall on Dec 14, 2019 15:05:22 GMT -5
all i hear is a bunch of reverb and the acoustic sound of the strings. clear, clean sound from the amp might help us determine what's going on in an A/B test but this just has me feeling spacey Yeah, haha, I committed a few crimes with that last video, I think I was so excited that it actually worked I had to show people 😁 Made another one just now with a dry sound and the amp up close to the phone
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Post by thetragichero on Dec 14, 2019 15:18:22 GMT -5
great job! my #1 strat only has two extra switches: jaguar-style strangle switch (when I'm using a delay to get some atmosphere, that bass cut makes the repeats a lot cleaner) and a middle*bridge series switch that overrides the selector switch. can give the drive of a bridge humbucker but also a different vibe since the coils aren't right next to each other
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Post by ourclarioncall on Dec 14, 2019 15:39:53 GMT -5
great job! my #1 strat only has two extra switches: jaguar-style strangle switch (when I'm using a delay to get some atmosphere, that bass cut makes the repeats a lot cleaner) and a middle*bridge series switch that overrides the selector switch. can give the drive of a bridge humbucker but also a different vibe since the coils aren't right next to each other Thanks. My ears are now able to identify the parallel sound now that it’s contrasting with the series. Just took me a minute So is your strat a normal 3 pickup strat with 5 way selector and volume tone tone PLUS two extra switches ? Funnily enough I was just looking up various wiring diagrams for mustang/jazzmaster/jagstang and jaguar last night. As I was thinking ahead about adding another switch or two so I can have both pickups on individually as well as the series and parallel. Yeah, I read up on the strangle switch , sounds interesting . Is it a capacitor a.k.a high pass filter that sends the low bass and mids to ground ?
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Post by sumgai on Dec 14, 2019 16:09:12 GMT -5
occ,
Realizing that this is a 'work in progress', I'll not offer opinions on what I'm hearing so far, except to say that I can tell the difference between series and parallel. And the first video sure sounded ripe for some surf music!
Now I'm gonna offer some advice.
1) Get a multimeter, that's always first on the list. But right after that, get a soldering iron, and the smaller the better. 15 watts will do the job for everything except tacking wires onto the back of a pot. 25 watt irons can do that, but they sometimes take too long, and might possibly burn things inside the pot. 40 watt irons are ideal for back-of-the-pot-soldering, but are usually too big, physically, for other soldering jobs. Yes they can do it, but the level of care and concentration is increased as a non-linear function. Ideally, and it can be done cheaply, you'd have two irons, but that's not always practical. It really can be cheap though, expensive soldering tools are not necessary. (Until 6 or 7 years ago, I used a 12 volt Weller unit that was intended for automotive use! Lasted me over 25 years.)
2) Use smaller gauge wire. The stuff you have in there now can carry house current. 20 or 22 AWG is more than sufficient, yet can be handled without special tools. Others Nutz have had good luck with single pieces stripped out of computer ribbon cables. Those are usually 24 ga., but the principle is sound, and the wire works as desired. Other computer cables might also yield usable wire, before going out and buying some.
3) Lose the connector blocks, they're far too big. For temporary purposes, simply twisting wires together is good enough. If there's a concern about shorting them to one another, use heat-shrink tubing. This stuff can be cut back off with a hobby knife, when you want to change things around. Heat shrink tubing is also ideal for the final lash-up, making things much neater in the cavity, and less likely to "stick out" or "stick up" and cause anguish as you try to button it all up.
4) Unless you absolutely refuse to use a pick ever again in your life, then use one for testing like this. The sharper attack gives a better sound for comparison purposes. Of course the final results must sound pleasing to you and your ears, but asking others for their opinions, well.... let's just say that a string struck by a pick is much, much more common, so most players will discern differences in tone more easily that way, than if a string is 'mauled' by a thumb or finger.
HTH
sumgai
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Post by thetragichero on Dec 14, 2019 17:13:27 GMT -5
So is your strat a normal 3 pickup strat with 5 way selector and volume tone tone PLUS two extra switches ? Yeah, I read up on the strangle switch , sounds interesting . Is it a capacitor a.k.a high pass filter that sends the low bass and mids to ground ? almost. i tend to use 3-way switches that you can place in the 2 and 4 positions if i place them there deliberately but otherwise any accidental flicks of the selector will result in another single coil selected (playing in mostly heavier bands i did not like playing a heavy riff with a bunch of gain only to get knocked into a thin parallel setting by my showman-like flailing about). so i found some interesting, rugged 3-way switches on eBay and bought a bunch. i don't waste as many motions as i did in my blurry days of yout', but I'm not about to dismantle half a dozen working guitars just to put a standard 5 way in it. master volume, tone tied to the selector switch, series tone. series override switch. "strangle" switch, which is a capacitor in series with the output (3nf if i remember correctly, whatever the stock fender value is). capacitor to ground would create a low pass filter
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Post by ourclarioncall on Dec 14, 2019 20:37:02 GMT -5
Sumgai
I was definitely in Cali- for- ni - A for a minute there 🏄♂️
A close miced valve amp would be best for these things but unfortunately I don’t av any 🙂 so solid state amp via iPhone via YouTube audio compression ? Will have to do. I might take the guitar to work as there is a better fender amp there
Multimeter is definitely on “my 5 kids are draining all my money for Christmas but il get one in January list” , and il definitely need a new soldering iron. I managed to burn the tip of my finger in the heat of the moment trying get that pesky solder into those nooks and crannies. Or as you guys call it “sodder”
Yeah, the wire I’ve got is twice as thick as the pickup wire. At first I thought the pickup wire was far too thin and flimsy but after trying to wrestle wire into that switch I can see why the skinny wire is a benefit . I had some of the fancy cloth wire a few years back but none left.
Ok, il ditch the connector block, yes your right, I was concerned about shorting but il try just twisting them, and that will save me a lot of time . Can you just wrap a bit of electrical tape over them instead of heat shrink ?
Yeah, pick is best , unfortunately I think my 7 year old moved it 🤨 it must be with my surf boards and beach boy albums 😄
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Post by ourclarioncall on Dec 14, 2019 20:44:17 GMT -5
So is your strat a normal 3 pickup strat with 5 way selector and volume tone tone PLUS two extra switches ? Yeah, I read up on the strangle switch , sounds interesting . Is it a capacitor a.k.a high pass filter that sends the low bass and mids to ground ? almost. i tend to use 3-way switches that you can place in the 2 and 4 positions if i place them there deliberately but otherwise any accidental flicks of the selector will result in another single coil selected (playing in mostly heavier bands i did not like playing a heavy riff with a bunch of gain only to get knocked into a thin parallel setting by my showman-like flailing about). so i found some interesting, rugged 3-way switches on eBay and bought a bunch. i don't waste as many motions as i did in my blurry days of yout', but I'm not about to dismantle half a dozen working guitars just to put a standard 5 way in it. master volume, tone tied to the selector switch, series tone. series override switch. "strangle" switch, which is a capacitor in series with the output (3nf if i remember correctly, whatever the stock fender value is). capacitor to ground would create a low pass filter Are you happy with your wiring ? Is this something you’ve settled on or are you still searching and trying different things?
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Post by thetragichero on Dec 14, 2019 21:36:12 GMT -5
nah this does pretty much everything i need for it playing primarily modern worship music. bridge and middle pickups are slightly overwound alnico 5 single coils made by a guy John Benson in upstate New York (love em, but if i ever need another there's a guy about an hour south on 95 that has a Craigslist ad that I'll try out), neck is a lace sensor silver. i play neck most often, middle second, and bridge*middle series third. I've used bridge+middle parallel on exactly one song i used to spend a lot of my time and energy pining over wiring mods, pickups, effects, amps, etc. I've come to the realization that i can get a ton more useful sounds by actually playing the guitar. church i play bass at is all straight to the board so besides my preamp/di there's no amp or anything, or even stage volume to speak puff. church I'm playing guitar at is tiny so the lab series l3 i donated doesn't get near cranked enough for my liking lol. apparently I've matured a bit from the a-hole who had to crank at least 1 if not 2 100w half stacks regardless of venue size or the requests of sound guys
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Post by reTrEaD on Dec 15, 2019 12:45:40 GMT -5
But right after that, get a soldering iron, and the smaller the better. 15 watts will do the job for everything except tacking wires onto the back of a pot. Ugh. Underpowered soldering iron are a recipe for disaster. Low temperature and long heating time allow the heat to migrate to sensitive areas that are adjacent to the joint and cause unnecessary damage. The flux tends to remain in the joint and the solder globs rather than flowing. Use high temperature and a short amount of time. It creates better joints, is less prone to damage, and as a bonus, it's faster and more efficient. Most Weller iron are inferior but the company did buy out Ungar many years ago. The Weller 'Modular' series is a continuation of the tried-and-true Ungar standard line. I use an SL-335 with an iron-clad chisel tip for nearly everything from printed boards to pots. You can vary how quickly you apply heat by using the corner (slow application), front edge (moderate), or flat face (maximum heating for things like making a puddle on the back of a pot). The handles, heating elements, and tips, are interchangeable in this series. I also have an SL-345 which has a fat chisel tip permanently attached to the heater, which I use for brute-force work. A stand with a damp sponge is very handy for keeping the tip of the iron clean.
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Post by thetragichero on Dec 15, 2019 13:22:01 GMT -5
i purchased that weller modular iron based on the recommendation here and it's pretty much perfect for everything i do. if i felt like it i could hook up my 100w weller gun i used to use for everything (and destroyed a good number of components while at it) for the aforementioned brute stuff (say, soldering to a steel chassis) but i generally just roll with the 30-something watt weller. i wouldn't suggest it, but I've jfet it plugged in for a day or two before and while it shortened the tip life it didn't harm the iron one thing i miss about having a local radio shack is the ability to pick up replacement sponges for my soldering station
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Post by ourclarioncall on Dec 16, 2019 11:32:18 GMT -5
Right, here we go, a much better recording , I’m at work with all my gear . I think it sounds pretty good on some of the settings, quite pleased
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Post by ashcatlt on Dec 16, 2019 17:30:41 GMT -5
Yeah, I read up on the strangle switch , sounds interesting . Is it a capacitor a.k.a high pass filter that sends the low bass and mids to ground ? It would behoove you to just drop this idea of “sending to ground” altogether. Ground really is just the other end of your circuit in most cases anyway. It’s tempting to think of a lowpass filter (cap to ground) as “short circuiting” high frequencies, but that idea breaks down fast when talking about almost anything else. “Everything useful is a voltage divider” In the case of a highpass filter (series capacitor), the “top resistor” in the divider gets big for low frequencies, and therefore a bigger part of the voltage source is dropped across the cap than across whatever load represents out “bottom resistor” which is what we call our output signal.
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Post by ourclarioncall on Dec 17, 2019 17:36:12 GMT -5
1.neck is a lace sensor silver. 2.I've come to the realization that i can get a ton more useful sounds by actually playing the guitar. 3.church i play bass at is all straight to the board so besides my preamp/di there's no amp or anything, or even stage volume to speak puff. 4. church I'm playing guitar at is tiny so the lab series l3 i donated doesn't get near cranked enough for my liking lol. apparently I've matured a bit from the a-hole who had to crank at least 1 if not 2 100w half stacks regardless of venue size or the requests of sound guys 1. Yeah , I love lace sensors in the neck position. I love the old strats with lace sensors , the ultra series etc. 2. I understand what you mean 3. I am a Christian and played in a few worship bands over the years. I love playing bass, it’s a lot of fun, lots of room to yourself in the mix unless the keys/piano are heavy in the lower range. Yeah, a good preamp/Di to the desk seems a popular way to go. And no lugging around big bass amps 4. I know the journey well. I had to learn the band was not a backing track for me to solo over but that I was there to serve. I’ve never actually had a position playing lead guitar in a band like I would have liked but now I don’t care anymore, I’m just as happy sitting listing as I am playing . Hearing myself properly on stage has always been a challenge . I would like to try in ear monitors to see if I like it. You now gets ones that work with your mobile phone. I have only played through a 4x10 or 4x12 once in a jam situation and I really liked it. Much better than combo amps , even 2x12’s. The big cab just filled the room so much better and could hear my sound much more satisfactory. So I can see why you would want to hold on to the half stack 😁
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Post by ourclarioncall on Dec 17, 2019 17:55:50 GMT -5
Yeah, I read up on the strangle switch , sounds interesting . Is it a capacitor a.k.a high pass filter that sends the low bass and mids to ground ? 1. It would behoove you to just drop this idea of “sending to ground” altogether. Ground really is just the other end of your circuit in most cases anyway. Yup, I don’t have a clue what ground and grounding is all about , but i think I’m starting to get it . I watched this video and it helped . He is saying there are different types of ground . Household ground , earth ground and circuit ground
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Post by sumgai on Dec 17, 2019 23:38:52 GMT -5
The video just above is pretty much spot on. It gets my squeal of approval.
But one of the things he glancingly mentions bears repeating and amplifying: Electricity (as in, the flow of electrons) will always take the easiest path to return back to its starting point.
When we talk about components such as capacitors and inductors (coils) that modify our guitars' tonality, it's precisely because they "allow" some frequencies to return to the starting point (the pickup) right within our guitar, instead of going out to the amplifier (or pedals). And at risk of repeating myself (and ChrisK) all too often, this path of least resistance is called "ground", but that's as in "reference point". Indeed, it should be called for what it is, the return path, or "signal return". But we all know what's what, and so we go with the flow, regardless of the nomeclature. (Sorry 'bout that.)
HTH
sumgai
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Post by ashcatlt on Dec 18, 2019 12:37:47 GMT -5
Electricity (as in, the flow of electrons) will always take the easiest path to return back to its starting point Oh come on. You know that's not true. If you have four holes in your bucket, it don't matter how big any of them are, there's gonna be water coming out all of them. Electricity takes every path it can to complete its circuit. Put the whole idea of "going to ground" away. Learn how to trace circuits and see how they connect back around, yes. But if you want to actually understand how it works, you need to find the voltage dividers. The most basic version of that looks like this: If those Zs are both resistors, it looks a lot like a volume pot. In a standard tone pot, Z1 is actually the complex combination of resistance, inductance, and capacitance of your pickup itself (which is essentially big for low frequencies and gets really big at high frequencies) while Z2 is the tone pot plus the capacitor (when the knob is all the way up, it's really big for high frequencies and heads to infinity at low frequencies, and when it's all the way down, it heads toward 0 for high frequencies and infinity for lows). In a strangle switch, Z1 is the pickup plus the capacitor (huge at both high and low frequencies, large in between) and Z2 is the parallel combination of the T and V pots with the actual load amp or pedal or whatever it's plugged in to. Though actually, in every case, Z1 is in series with the pickup and Z2 is parallel all that other load stuff. But usually when we analyze these things, we try to look at them in smaller blocks and assume that the sources and loads are appropriate to where they won't much affect the outcome. At least as a first guess, we assume that our source and load are perfect. It's when we have trouble finding one of the the Zs in the divider that we have to look either back or forward a stage or two. Edit - I wrote this whole big thing on another forum about how everything useful actually is a voltage divider. Hope it helps.
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Post by sumgai on Dec 18, 2019 12:49:46 GMT -5
Electricity (as in, the flow of electrons) will always take the easiest path to return back to its starting point Oh come on. You know that's not true. ..... I am literally speechless.
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Post by b4nj0 on Dec 18, 2019 14:19:24 GMT -5
Someone ought to explain that to lightning.
e&oe ...
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Post by ashcatlt on Dec 18, 2019 17:28:11 GMT -5
Someone ought to explain that to lightning. I feel like the fact that it so often forks and branches would tend to support my argument. I certainly didn't mean any disrespect, but if you read the rest of what I wrote, I think you'll find it difficult to argue. If I put 1 Ω parallel 1K Ω and 1M Ω, measurable current flows through all three. More importantly, the voltage across each of them (all we really care about) is exactly the same. My main point is how does this line of thinking help anybody? How does this thing about "dumping to ground" and "path of least resistance" help explain a series-capacitor highpass filter like the strangle switch that started this whole line of debate? It flat doesn't. You can't say that the low frequencies find an easier path back to the start. That's just not how it works. Likewise the series inductor lowpass that our pickup makes. That's not really because high frequencies get shorted before they reach the amp. Cable capacitance can almost be seen that way, but that cutoff depends on how much current we can pull from the source - it's effective impedance. You have to squint and squirm to even try to explain these things with the old "path of least resistance" metaphor. That's because they're actually voltage dividers and when you put aside the other silliness and just look for the dividers, it all actually makes sense without too much fudging and pretending. What I'm saying is that if we want to understand or help others understand how most of what we do actually works in practice, we should avoid that kind of vague, inaccurate, and ultimately confusing analogy and just teach voltage dividers.
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Post by thetragichero on Dec 25, 2019 17:33:22 GMT -5
I am a Christian and played in a few worship bands over the years. I love playing bass, it’s a lot of fun, lots of room to yourself in the mix unless the keys/piano are heavy in the lower range. Yeah, a good preamp/Di to the desk seems a popular way to go. And no lugging around big bass amps here's both of our Christmas worship sets from Sunday. same songs both services but that's how the video is. guy on drums is our youth pastor; rarely plays but when he does he and i sync up incredibly well
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2019 18:10:02 GMT -5
Lol yep I guess the term is wrong But should be "Most of the current will go down the path of least resistance" why we try to tease it by making a nice wide cable for it. Also it only takes 50mA to kill a person.. I've had 13A over my heart and boy did that give a puzzle .. (by the way humans melt in to a sort of candle wax like, found that out when I had to pull the cables from my fingers)
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Post by ourclarioncall on Jan 2, 2020 15:48:14 GMT -5
I am a Christian and played in a few worship bands over the years. I love playing bass, it’s a lot of fun, lots of room to yourself in the mix unless the keys/piano are heavy in the lower range. Yeah, a good preamp/Di to the desk seems a popular way to go. And no lugging around big bass amps here's both of our Christmas worship sets from Sunday. same songs both services but that's how the video is. guy on drums is our youth pastor; rarely plays but when he does he and i sync up incredibly well Are you In the band ? I see two electric guitarists on the left
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Post by thetragichero on Jan 2, 2020 16:00:22 GMT -5
bass next to the drummer
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