Volume Switches - mini-toggle, two or three position.

[sumgai]

occ,


reTrEaD is correct as far as he goes, but you would like more info.

First, I need to make an assumption, and tender a note of caution.  It might make sense to you that simply inserting another switch and resistor in series with the first switch would be easy-peasy.  Don't do that!  You'll upset the string of calculations something fierce. And it also might come to pass that you were simply going to insert another switch in parallel with the first, to cut the volume by 3/4th.  Don't do that either, the calculations become even more horrific!

But don't worry, there is a solution at the end of the  rainbow! 

All that you need to consider is this: resistors add in series, and they divide in parallel.  That right there should tell you that if you move your pickups from series to parallel with switches in one or both cut positions, or the other way around, then you're going to experience a jarring difference in volume.

There really is only one way to avoid this, given your proclivity for using two position toggle switches - you must use a 4pole unit (4PDT, in the catalogs) for each quarter-volume switch.  I'll leave it to you to determine how to cut the half-volume switches out of the signal path, so that you don't have a lot of intermixing of resistance values as you go from series to parallel, etc.  Given that you want to have as few resistors in the signal path as possible at any one time, then it should be a straightforward problem in logic to figure this out.  (Although if it were me, I'd use a three position switch instead of the two individual cut switches and be done with it.  But that's just me.)

That was the easy way.  But no one ever accused you of being easy, amiright?   So all I can say now is that if you do want half volume on Pickup A and quarter volume on Pickup B, then please let me know in advance, so I can call my broker and buy large quantities of stock in Rogaine.... you're gonna need it, and that's gonna fuel my retirement!

HTH




sumgai


Teaching Nutz how to mod since 2005, one solder lug at a time!

[ourclarioncall]

RT said “ When only one pickup is selected, it wouldn't matter whether the half-volume or quarter volume was the first in the chain. But when both pickups are selected, it matters. Particularly when the pickups are combined in parallel.”

My brain says put the half volume first then the quarter. And also , keep that order consistent for both pickups. Would that work IF my goal was to access a 1/8th volume ?

I’m not really bothered about the 1/8th, it would be a nice Easter egg, but mainly I just want the choice between half or a quarter . And because I would only be using the half or quarter switches on their own, I assume it doesn’t matter which order in the signal chain there in .... or does it ?

[ourclarioncall]

Sumgai

Ah, just read your post after replying to RT

I was just telling a friend of mine about the GN2 forum and how I drive you guys nuts with my fussy and demanding ways haha !

Sumgai said

“First, I need to make an assumption, and tender a note of caution.  It might make sense to you that simply inserting another switch and resistor in series with the first switch would be easy-peasy.  Don't do that!  You'll upset the string of calculations something fierce. And it also might come to pass that you were simply going to insert another switch in parallel with the first, to cut the volume by 3/4th.  Don't do that either, the calculations become even more horrific!”

You read my mind, that would have been my thought process. “Just stick another switch in before or after the first one”.

When you say
“And it also might come to pass that you were simply going to insert another switch in parallel with the first, to cut the volume by 3/4th. “

Do you mean on the same pickup? As in - a half volume dpdt and a quarter volume dpdt on the same pickup but wired in parallel instead of series to bypass the signal going through the extra resistors from whichever switch is not engaged ?

Or do you mean the same thing as above but with both switches engaged it will not work ?

—
I may be tempted to give the other dp3t module a shot.

I’m just a bit awkward 😊 I like to keep all the switches the same. Either they are all double throw or they are all 3 throw.

[sumgai]

Mar 15, 2020 7:34:37 GMT -5 ourclarioncall said:

Mar 15, 2020 1:24:01 GMT -5 sumgai said:

First, I need to make an assumption, and tender a note of caution.  It might make sense to you that simply inserting another switch and resistor in series with the first switch would be easy-peasy.  Don't do that!  You'll upset the string of calculations something fierce. And it also might come to pass that you were simply going to insert another switch in parallel with the first, to cut the volume by 3/4th.  Don't do that either, the calculations become even more horrific!

You read my mind, that would have been my thought process. “Just stick another switch in before or after the first one”.

When you say "And it also might come to pass that you were simply going to insert another switch in parallel with the first, to cut the volume by 3/4th", do you mean on the same pickup? As in - a half volume dpdt and a quarter volume dpdt on the same pickup but wired in parallel instead of series to bypass the signal going through the extra resistors from whichever switch is not engaged ?

You've pretty much nailed it. I was reading your intent as being able to cut the volume on each pickup independently.  This meant 4 switches in total, whether they were wired in series to each other, per pickup, or in parallel to each other, per pickup.

So here's the problem, without all the math.  Remember that we went through a lot of hocus-pocus about how to calculate the values for each part of the resistor chain?  Well, if you insert another resistor into that chain (before or after the half-cut switch), then you're going to have to recalculate for the required values.  Not too difficult, but necessary none-the-less.

If you duplicate the switch-and-resistors, placing that duplication in parallel, then you've really opened up a can of worms, mathematically speaking.  Draw it out on paper, and even in your fashion of drawing, you'll see that you now have at least three resistors in a parallel/series arrangement, with two switches added.  Calculating the effective resistances needed will not be easy, not even with a calculator at hand. (Yes, you could separate out an additional resistor, but the two parallel paths end up at ground anyway, so why not share that bottom-most resistor.)

Now, double down on that by doing the whole thing all over again for the other pickup.  Yes, I have been speaking to only one pickup so far.  Now draw it out for both pups, and take a look at what your signals are going to go through.  Does this not look like a nightmare to you?

In essence, with a half-cut in the picture (for each pup), you could've had Pickup A in full volume, and Pickup B in half-cut.  That would've worked, although perhaps not completely to your liking, balance wise.  And the difference in volume level between parallel and series would've been noticable, but not drastic.  Adding another resistor/switch combo to that set of circumstances means not just two possible volume levels (below the max, that is), nor even four, but at least eight possible levels.  Why?  Because in series the resistors will add, meaning that more cut will be applied to the signal.  But in parallel.... this is why reTrEaD said, pay attention, because you are now entering the Excedrin Headache Zone!  In parallel, resistors don't add, they divide.   The combination will provide a value less than the smallest resistor's value.  Translated to clear language, that means that the resistance inserted into the signal path will not be as great as even the half-cut value, and thus the overall volume level will not drop down as much as the half-cut by itself.  Now the volume levels between parallel and series will be drastic, to say the least.

Mar 15, 2020 7:34:37 GMT -5 ourclarioncall said:

Or do you mean the same thing as above but with both switches engaged it will not work ?

Oh, it will work, just not in the manner you probably expected.

Mar 15, 2020 7:34:37 GMT -5 ourclarioncall said:

I’m just a bit awkward 😊 I like to keep all the switches the same. Either they are all double throw or they are all 3 throw.

That's not being awkward, that's merely anal.

Let me make another suggestion here.  In stating that a 3-way (DP3T) switch should be used, my intent was a bit different than most folks might've imagined.  Thinking of how you like to operate, I'd suggest that the full volume be at one end of the handle's travel, the half-cut is at the other end, and the quarter cut is in the middle.  That way, you're least like to "fiddle" with getting full volume - simply slap that puppy into place, and it's done.  Same for half-volume, just brush the handle all the way down (or up), and it's done.  Getting a quarter volume level is a bit more fiddly, but how often will you need this setting.  Put that in the middle, and when you wish to go back to half- or full volume, it's quite easy.  (But this will require an on/on/on style switch.  An on/off/on will require that you place the full volume position in the center throw.)

Now, having made that suggestion, keep in mind what I said last time out - regardless of how the switches are arranged, the interaction between the two pickups will be.... interesting.  You will still have to contend with the series/parallel business of adding or dividing resistors, just like I've illustrated above.  It's usually at this point that I start ranting about how much simpler it would be to mount any and all control of the output volume after any pickup selection.  IOW, use a Master Volume setup, and all the above problems go away.  Entirely away.  But I'm not gonna waste your time with any such narrative, I'm pretty sure I can guess how far that's gonna fly for you.

HTH





sumgai

[ourclarioncall]

Sumgai

Appreciate the potent blend of thoughtful education and razor sharp wit 🙂

Sumgai said:
“Why?  Because in series the resistors will add, meaning that more cut will be applied to the signal.  But in parallel.... this is why reTrEaD said, pay attention, because you are now entering the EXCEDRIN HEADACHE ZONE!  In parallel, resistors don't add, they divide. “ 😆😆

My wife asked me why I was smiling at my phone , so thank you for giving me a few laughs as well the pointers

Sumgai said:
“You've pretty much nailed it. I was reading your intent as being able to cut the volume on each pickup independently.  This meant 4 switches in total, whether they were wired in series to each other, per pickup, or in parallel to each other, per pickup”.

Yes, that’s exactly right.

I wanted to be able to choose either half or a quarter for neck and a half or a quarter for bridge. And was interested in a possible bonus from using the half and quarter together.

Sumgai said:
“In essence, with a half-cut in the picture (for each pup), you could've had Pickup A in full volume, and Pickup B in half-cut.  That would've worked, although perhaps not completely to your liking, balance wise.  And the difference in volume level between parallel and series would've been noticable, but not drastic.”

I had actually went ahead before I read your post and put in a half volume switch for each pickup . And I now have experienced what you were saying about the difference between serious and parallel.

But yeah, you’ve given me a lot of food for thought and re-read what you wore quite a few times. So now I’m just trying to think through possible options.
—

Sumgai said:
“It's usually at this point that I start ranting about how much simpler it would be to mount any and all control of the output volume after any pickup selection.  IOW, use a Master Volume setup, and all the above problems go away.  Entirely away.”

When I first started looking at volume switches in had thought that they should be best last in line before the output jack, but I think that I would only be able to control master volume , not the individual volume of pickups , so that’s why I went first in line.

As far as master volume goes I was actually thinking of having one or more of those too, last in line (aswell as the ones first in line ) , so something like 6 volume switches in total. But now you have enlightened me a lot more on this.

Ideally I would like to have 2 volume cuts for each pickup and 2 master volume , volume cuts

Hmmm 🤔 need to ponder this one

[sumgai]

Mar 16, 2020 19:31:39 GMT -5 ourclarioncall said:

....
Ideally I would like to have 2 volume cuts for each pickup and 2 master volume , volume cuts

Hmmm 🤔 need to ponder this one

Ah yes, right about now the ol' thinking cap should be getting a good workout.

But my response just now is, you can have this arrangement, but there will be some compromises, perhaps ones that you have yet to contemplate.

First will be loading of the pickups, the consequences of such.  You've already read a bunch of material on that factor, so I'll leave that out of the discussion.

Next is the switching arrangement.  That's altogether a personal thing, and I commend you for having the foresight to become surgically enhanced with several extra fingers in order to manipulate all of these options.

And then comes the parts themselves.  Not the number of them, the inner workings of the switches.  Here's my take:  You can stay simple with SPST, SPDT or DPDT,  but we may need to move to more complex switches, if we find it needful to do so.

Let's first start with a series arrangement.  This will probably need the fewest parts, and the resistor value calculations should be pretty easy.  Your homework for today is this:  Layout a simple series lash-up that puts two switches in series with three resistors, and calculate approximate resistor values for the most desirable levels of half and quarter volume cuts.  At this point, we're going for proof of concept more than anything else, so for now you can ignore any potential pickup loading.  

For bonus points, you can include a "treble boost", if you so desire.

HTH





sumgai

[ourclarioncall]

Sumgai

I think I will have to push the pause button on this for a minute - having some problems With the caps , hopefully get that sorted once and for all so I can get focused on the volume stuff

[ourclarioncall]

Sumgai

My mind is a bit bamboozled with options and questions in my mind so I’m up for taking the easier road at the moment then maybe go back later and try and refine it for double throws.

So yeah, I’m happy to go with three throw switches.

Just to clarify something: the only way I can change individual pickup volume is first in line right ? Or in other words, before the pickup selector. After the pickup selection I will only be able to have master volume right ? and not be able to cut pickup A or B individually

If I assume correct, my thoughts were to have 3 of retreads modules (quarter/half/full DP3T)

two pre-selector switch (one for pickup A and another for pickup B) and one post- selector switch (as a master volume)

What ya reckon? Will that be ok?

[sumgai]

OK, Grasshopper, you have shown a good plan for snatching the pebble from my hand. Indeed, you are getting close to leaving the Temple!

Now draw up a diagram for us to vet.

[ourclarioncall]

Mar 20, 2020 0:43:45 GMT -5 sumgai said:

OK, Grasshopper, you have shown a good plan for snatching the pebble from my hand. Indeed, you are getting close to leaving the Temple!

Now draw up a diagram for us to vet.

😎 one final question for now-

you suggested changing the order of the switch so that the full volume was at one end , the half volume at the other and the quarter volume in the middle.

Retread doesn’t have that option above, but I see from other modules he has changed the order of selection  just by swapping two wires around. Would it be that simple ? 

Like this ...

[reTrEaD]

Mar 20, 2020 8:58:53 GMT -5 ourclarioncall said:

Retread doesn’t have that option above, but I see from other modules he has changed the order of selection  just by swapping two wires around. Would it be that simple ?

It would, indeed.

The DPDT on-on-on switch is configured as a SP3T switch because of the jumper from the upper-right throw to the left pole.

The right pole is used as the pole of the SP3T switch.

(Keeping in mind, the throws on a toggle switch are connected contrary to the position of the toggle.)
The connection to the throws are as follows:

Toggle Down = Upper Left
Toggle Center = Lower Left
Toggle Up = Lower Right

---

IF the external connections are limited to those four lugs, the throws can be used in whatever order is desired.

[ourclarioncall]

Retread

Great, that makes life easier 👍

[ourclarioncall]

Been playing around with these half volumes today again

I haven’t tried the module with the half and quarter yet but will do next

But from the time I’ve spent so far I am thinking a one third cut might be better (for me anyway ) than the half. The half seems just a touch too much for how I’ve been using it

I’ve really been enjoying it actually and it’s been a very practical help while at home in the evenings. Basically, I’m using it a lot.

So yeah, the next thought is, if there is a half and a quarter options , then what about one third and two thirds of full volume ? (Approx 66.6% and 33.3% of full volume)

I could anticipate the quarter volume option being beyond useable but the two thirds might just hit the sweet spot for the lowest setting. Of course I would have to try the quarter and see if my theory manifests as I suspect in real life

SO....

I could make a request for a “one third volume - two thirds volume - full volume “ module but maybe I can earn it by working it out myself , but I’m really don’t have a clue where to start !

[sumgai]

occ,


Your latest diagram looks good to me as well. But your request just above is probably more valid than you might think. So let me propose two ways to answer that for you.

One - calculate the values as you were shown in previous postings;

or

Two -

a: Insert a standard volume pot in place of any switching;
b: twist the knob until you reduce the volume level down to what you want;
c: disconnect the pot and take a reading with your meter;
d: write that down;
e: repeat for each level setting you want.


At this point, it doesn't matter if you are aiming for 1/3 cut, 1/2 cut, 2/3 cut, or whatever - the choices are yours. Once you have these readings, it's almost child's play to incorporate them into a string of resistors that closely approximate your readings.

Calculating the intended values may be quicker, but if they don't work out the way you intended, then you're down to "playing" with values until you get it right. Using the volume pot method may seem to require more effort and time, but it's pretty sure that you'll get the right values the first time.

Or at least, the ones your ear liked that particular day. I'm sure you understand that the perceived volume level is different in differing environments, yes? At such times, the intended amount of cut might not be right for the situation. IOW, you arrived at the wrong level cut in jig time, thanks to using a switch instead of a pot. Trade-offs, my friend, trade-offs.

HTH




sumgai

[sumgai]

occ,


Almost forgot. (Well, I did forget, but recovered pretty quickly.)

The order of the level cuts across the three throws of the switch is strictly personal. I chose "1/2 - 1/4 - full" only for the reasons suggested - quickly operating the toggle to the most often used throws. If anyone wants it laid out differently for their own personal reasons, then who am I to say they're wrong?

HTH




sumgai

[ourclarioncall]

sumgai

I liked your suggestion with the 1/4 in the middle, makes sense to me to put the least likely used in the middle.

Sumgai said:
“One - calculate the values as you were shown in previous postings;”

I can’t remember where ? I had a look on this thread but could not see anything, was it on a thread I posted from a while back ? I’ll have a look

Sumgai said :
“or Two -
a: Insert a standard volume pot in place of any switching;
b: twist the knob until you reduce the volume level down to what you want;
c: disconnect the pot and take a reading with your meter;
d: write that down;
e: repeat for each level setting you want.”

I did a little bit of this on this thread on some other guitars when I got a multimeter but got a bit sidetracked. I think I did get two reduced volumes on two different guitars I liked and John was going to do the maths for me as I don’t know how . But that was my fault as I never got back to him yet. I am intrigued to know at roughly what percentage of volume decrease I liked purely by ear. And also if my ear was consistent both times on those two different guitars.

Sumgai said:
“I'm sure you understand that the perceived volume level is different in differing environments, yes? At such times, the intended amount of cut might not be right for the situation. IOW, you arrived at the wrong level cut in jig time, thanks to using a switch instead of a pot. Trade-offs, my friend, trade-offs.”

Gotcha, yeah , I was noticing that tonight as my volume amp was lower and the half cut seemed less of a drop. 🤔 hmmm. I guess while I’m at work and teaching guitar in a consistent environment at consistent volume I would be able to nail the perfect volume drop as I experiment with half or one third... but 😬 corona has shut down the music school for the foreseeable future! Could be months before I’m back. So I’m just picking away in a small corner my sons bedroom 😊