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Post by antigua on Mar 13, 2020 22:23:58 GMT -5
 This is a dirt cheap $30 Chinese pickup set that is meant to match a Seymour Duncan JB/Jazz combo, which comes as OEM pickups in a lot of guitars. Currently priced at $30 on Amazon, they almost 1/5th the cost of the Seymour Duncan JB/Jazz set at retain price. It's an impressive set all around, using materials that are very nearly identical to a Seymour Duncan product. The base plates are nickel silver, even though the Amazon pictures showed brass base plates. A nice feature of the base plates is that they are bridge and neck dedicated, where as many, such as those used for the BYO, have holes in both corners, so that the base plate can be used for either pickup. Original PAF base plates had a single hole also. The tape is a nice cloth style, as with high end pickups. One cheesy aspect is that the bottom half of the filister screws are not threaded, but if you cut them off with wire snips, it actually increases the field strength, so I look at it as an invitation to do so. The bridge pickup is slightly lower inductance than a JB, 14H instead of 16H, and the loaded resonant peak is ~200Hz higher, similar to the peaks of some pickups sold as "hot" or "overwound" PAFs. The neck pickup is relatively "underwound" also, with an inductance of 3.6H, which is on the low side of most PAF style neck pickups I've measured, and the loaded peak of 3.3kHz is also high. All together, the inductance is lower than JB/Jazz set, but not to any significant degree. IMO, this set is a more than suitable stand-in. Another big plus: no Seymour Duncan logo, or any other logo, on the pickup's faces. FLEOR High Output Alnico 5 Guitar Pickup
Bridge
- DC Resistance: 14.938K ohms
- Measured L: 6.551H
- Calculated C: 111.73pF
- Gauss: 350G
Neck
- DC Resistance: 7.451K ohms
- Measured L: 3.617H
- Calculated C: 95.17pF
- Gauss: 350G
Bridge unloaded: dV: 7.8dB f: 6.43kHz (black)
Bridge loaded (200k & 470pF): dV: 1.7dB f: 2.20kHz (blue)
Br Split unloaded: dV: 7.2dB f: 8.46kHz (red)
Br Split loaded (200k & 470pF): dV: 2.8dB f: 3.76kHz (green)
Neck unloaded: dV: 7.0dB f: 7.81kHz (black)
Neck loaded (200k & 470pF): dV: 3.0dB f: 3.32kHz (blue)
Nk Split unloaded: dV: 6.7dB f: 11.9kHz (red)
Nk Split loaded (200k & 470pF): dV: 3.7dB f: 5.30kHz (green)  |
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Post by frets on Mar 14, 2020 14:52:25 GMT -5
Antigua,
I wonder if these are Donlis with a rebadge to Fleor? My guess is that they could be. If so, I can personally attest to similarity in harmonics as their pricey comparisons.
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Post by antigua on Mar 15, 2020 2:49:21 GMT -5
Antigua, I wonder if these are Donlis with a rebadge to Fleor? My guess is that they could be. If so, I can personally attest to similarity in harmonics as their pricey comparisons. I'm not sure what branding is and isn't real, and who the OEMs are. A lot of the Chinese humbuckers have that characteristic circled B and circled N stamped on the bottom. I assume they all come from the same machine. Between a handful of brand names, there seems to be a lot of common parts and very similar pickups. These look real close www.aliexpress.com/item/32859256866.html?spm=2114.12010612.8148356.1.72eb1563xiMFGe but the base plate isn't nickel silver, the filister screws are threaded to the very ends, and the bridge pickup is a little hotter. Interestingly, they seem to be distinct from BYO and Tonerider pickups, even though both are made in or near Hong Kong. |
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Post by wgen on Mar 15, 2020 6:02:41 GMT -5
One thing I always found interesting with high output pickups is that, even if the inductance may vary a lot (approx. 6.5H of this Fleor bridge humbucker versus 8H of the Byo humbucker reviewed in the other thread), the resonant peak is still so close between the two.
The same I found when the Dimarzio Super Distortion versus the Super 2 were analyzed.. Overall, they seemed so close to each other.
Am I missing something here?
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Post by frets on Mar 15, 2020 14:12:13 GMT -5
Antigua,
I now don’t think they are Donlis given the set I’m thinking of has nickel plates (DH53’s). But I believe, like you that they all come from the same basic factory. Even some of the Artec’s from Korea have that same brass plate with the circled B or N. I just want to say how much I enjoy reading your analyses. Love the analysis of the cheaper sets.
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Post by antigua on Mar 16, 2020 11:33:03 GMT -5
One thing I always found interesting with high output pickups is that, even if the inductance may vary a lot (approx. 6.5H of this Fleor bridge humbucker versus 8H of the Byo humbucker reviewed in the other thread), the resonant peak is still so close between the two. The same I found when the Dimarzio Super Distortion versus the Super 2 were analyzed.. Overall, they seemed so close to each other. Am I missing something here? They're about 200Hz apart, I dont have a lot of experience with hot pickups, so I haven't practiced trying to hear such a difference. I'd say it's right on the border of being discernible. You could probably tell with a direct A/B test, but if you waited a day, you probably wouldn't tell. Having different magnets affects the interaction between the pickup and the strings, and is proxy for raising or lowering the pickup, which has an impact on the sound aside from the resonant peak. Psychology plays into the marketing, something can sound both smooth and harsh at the same time, so if they say "this pickup is smooth" and "this pickup is harsh", then for all intents and purposes they've created two products out of one pickup, so even with a small actual variety of pickups, they can make it seem like a wide variety exists. |
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Post by antigua on Mar 16, 2020 11:43:06 GMT -5
Antigua, I now don’t think they are Donlis given the set I’m thinking of has nickel plates (DH53’s). But I believe, like you that they all come from the same basic factory. Even some of the Artec’s from Korea have that same brass plate with the circled B or N. I just want to say how much I enjoy reading your analyses. Love the analysis of the cheaper sets. I notice the Korean made pickups are looking a lot like the Chinese ones, I don't know what to make of it. Fortunately they're distinctive, for now. Eventually they might look so "PAF" perfect that their origin becomes a complete mystery. We will have to resort to plastics analysis, or surveying parts with micrometers. |
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bw13
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Post by bw13 on Nov 18, 2021 17:47:59 GMT -5
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Post by antigua on Nov 18, 2021 22:20:49 GMT -5
That's awesome, double cream with nickel silver baseplate. I think I could make use of both sets, but they're only offering the neck version of that black pickup. The electrical values look pretty good, the inductance values are very believable. |
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bw13
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Post by bw13 on Nov 22, 2021 1:00:13 GMT -5
yea i saw the second bridge pickup is out of stock after i posted it but i'm really stuck on DHN22
you don't see lot of tb59 reviews as well not to mention those ones ... people mostly rocking 59s on frankenstrats and evh sound in general
fleor high outputs has too much gain for me ... 90% of gain section i play fuzzes and fleor takes it more to distortion territory so
(not the humbucker guy in general) i kinda want to try this one ... and as i read 59 has scooped out mids ... not liking mids ))
well as a non humbucker guy for my ears high output ones sounds too boxy ? - i guess ... and with lot of mids ...
wanna try it on SH jaguar ... with burns tri sonic (korean one, also from ali) neck, 500k pots 049 cap (no rhythm circuit)
but i would really like to see your analysis & review
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metalmob
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Post by metalmob on Dec 28, 2021 10:08:25 GMT -5
Antigua, I now don’t think they are Donlis given the set I’m thinking of has nickel plates (DH53’s). But I believe, like you that they all come from the same basic factory. Even some of the Artec’s from Korea have that same brass plate with the circled B or N. I just want to say how much I enjoy reading your analyses. Love the analysis of the cheaper sets. I notice the Korean made pickups are looking a lot like the Chinese ones, I don't know what to make of it. Fortunately they're distinctive, for now. Eventually they might look so "PAF" perfect that their origin becomes a complete mystery. We will have to resort to plastics analysis, or surveying parts with micrometers. Hi antigua,many Korean factories are in China, so many made in Korean=Made in China, I am from China |
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Post by antigua on Dec 30, 2021 14:43:48 GMT -5
I notice the Korean made pickups are looking a lot like the Chinese ones, I don't know what to make of it. Fortunately they're distinctive, for now. Eventually they might look so "PAF" perfect that their origin becomes a complete mystery. We will have to resort to plastics analysis, or surveying parts with micrometers. Hi antigua,many Korean factories are in China, so many made in Korean=Made in China, I am from China I suspected as much. I don't understand the manufacturing arrangements in China or Korea, but I wish I did. All I can do is observe what the products that are allegedly from the two places have in common. And a lot of the more recent products from China is looking suspiciously similar to products that were allegedly "Made in USA". |
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bw13
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Post by bw13 on Feb 15, 2022 21:52:45 GMT -5
Hi antigua,many Korean factories are in China, so many made in Korean=Made in China, I am from China I suspected as much. I don't understand the manufacturing arrangements in China or Korea, but I wish I did. All I can do is observe what the products that are allegedly from the two places have in common. And a lot of the more recent products from China is looking suspiciously similar to products that were allegedly "Made in USA". did a whole manifesto thing in donlis thread on that one  , though fleor nowdays claim that they are doing "Copper Base Plate" pretty much on every pickup. is that the same as nickel silver ? because when i bought FLEOR High Output Humbucker it said nickel silver, now on the same link it says copper ... and also i found newer and lower output fleors you might find interesting ... and also it should be fun to compare them to donlis dhn22 s www.aliexpress.com/item/4000895280618.html?spm=a2g0o.store_pc_groupList.8148356.54.1daa3c24XXocS4this one as well as the others say copper, cheaper ones still come with brass p.s. did anyone notice that something is wrong with aliexpress search engine ? if not the saved sellers i would be lost edit: nickel silver: The usual formulation is 60% copper, 20% nickel and 20% zinc. so i guess it's their simplier way to say nickel silver, though oripure pickups say copper-nickel alloy so dunno it's an actual change or just a typo  |
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Post by antigua on Feb 16, 2022 1:27:56 GMT -5
I suspected as much. I don't understand the manufacturing arrangements in China or Korea, but I wish I did. All I can do is observe what the products that are allegedly from the two places have in common. And a lot of the more recent products from China is looking suspiciously similar to products that were allegedly "Made in USA". did a whole manifesto thing in donlis thread on that one , though fleor nowdays claim that they are doing "Copper Base Plate" pretty much on every pickup. is that the same as nickel silver ? because when i bought FLEOR High Output Humbucker it said nickel silver, now on the same link it says copper ... and also i found newer and lower output fleors you might find interesting ... and also it should be fun to compare them to donlis dhn22 s www.aliexpress.com/item/4000895280618.html?spm=a2g0o.store_pc_groupList.8148356.54.1daa3c24XXocS4this one as well as the others say copper, cheaper ones still come with brass p.s. did anyone notice that something is wrong with aliexpress search engine ? if not the saved sellers i would be lost edit: nickel silver: The usual formulation is 60% copper, 20% nickel and 20% zinc. so i guess it's their simplier way to say nickel silver, though oripure pickups say copper-nickel alloy so dunno it's an actual change or just a typo To be honest, the baseplate doesn't matter that much as far as eddy currents, so if it looks like nickel silver, I'm happy enough with it. The main problem I have with a copper baseplate is that it obviously looks like copper. I'm also seeing a lot of aluminum base plates, and that's just completely wrong, and it does exhibit greater eddy current attenuation than either copper or nickel silver base plates. You can't even solder to aluminum, so they have to use twist-tie a piece of copper wire to the base plate through an eyelet and then solder to that. I noticed that AliExpress is selling Epiphone Probuckers sets for as little as $25, which are nickel silver top and bottom. Unfortunately I'm not seeing gold plated, and raw/unpolished nickel silver covers are still next to non existent, outside of BYO and of course the expensive domestic options. |
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bw13
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Post by bw13 on Feb 16, 2022 5:44:56 GMT -5
did a whole manifesto thing in donlis thread on that one , though fleor nowdays claim that they are doing "Copper Base Plate" pretty much on every pickup. is that the same as nickel silver ? because when i bought FLEOR High Output Humbucker it said nickel silver, now on the same link it says copper ... and also i found newer and lower output fleors you might find interesting ... and also it should be fun to compare them to donlis dhn22 s www.aliexpress.com/item/4000895280618.html?spm=a2g0o.store_pc_groupList.8148356.54.1daa3c24XXocS4this one as well as the others say copper, cheaper ones still come with brass p.s. did anyone notice that something is wrong with aliexpress search engine ? if not the saved sellers i would be lost edit: nickel silver: The usual formulation is 60% copper, 20% nickel and 20% zinc. so i guess it's their simplier way to say nickel silver, though oripure pickups say copper-nickel alloy so dunno it's an actual change or just a typo To be honest, the baseplate doesn't matter that much as far as eddy currents, so if it looks like nickel silver, I'm happy enough with it. The main problem I have with a copper baseplate is that it obviously looks like copper. I'm also seeing a lot of aluminum base plates, and that's just completely wrong, and it does exhibit greater eddy current attenuation than either copper or nickel silver base plates. You can't even solder to aluminum, so they have to use twist-tie a piece of copper wire to the base plate through an eyelet and then solder to that. I noticed that AliExpress is selling Epiphone Probuckers sets for as little as $25, which are nickel silver top and bottom. Unfortunately I'm not seeing gold plated, and raw/unpolished nickel silver covers are still next to non existent, outside of BYO and of course the expensive domestic options. came across those probuckers myself ... i just don't like covered pickups, but stuck on firebird ones, though i can't find any adapter ring from humbucker to mini humbucker which isn't flat, so maybe next time  (look up guitarfamily store on ali, they have those epi pafs, firebirds, burns pickups etc) i wanted to edit upper post, as it happens they f'd up description of hight output ones ... i compared lastest link to my purchase of these and they are the same both says 8-9k and picture is changed so i wrote to customer service and they confirmed, though i asked if they have 8-9k (52mm) in stock... waiting for an answer. by the way you pushed me wanting lcr meter ! |
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bw13
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Post by bw13 on May 8, 2022 12:38:21 GMT -5
hey Antigua!
any new purchases ?
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Post by antigua on May 8, 2022 15:45:55 GMT -5
hey Antigua! any new purchases ? Double creams, FLEOR, or in general? This is my most recent purchase guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/9939/analysis-pro-epiphone-hbs-aliexpress , also some more BYO and Tonerider, but I've been busy wiring up guitars so I haven't analyzed them yet. I also have some left over stock pickups from Chinese knock-off guitars that are interesting also. |
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bw13
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Post by bw13 on May 16, 2022 9:15:16 GMT -5
no in general, i'll look it up, btw came across epi probuckers myself,
fleor now has 8.5 ish humbuckers too, eager to try those
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Post by antigua on May 17, 2022 12:00:36 GMT -5
no in general, i'll look it up, btw came across epi probuckers myself, fleor now has 8.5 ish humbuckers too, eager to try those I'm interested. It's getting to the point that all I'm really looking for with a PAF clone is a nickel silver cover. The base plate doesn't matter, and everything in between is more a preference issue, such as the magnet type or coil inductance. I've ordered pickups with nickel silver covers, and find that the vendor is not really selling what they claim to sell, knowingly or not. If FLEOR sells a nickel silver cover, I'd be interested in testing that out. |
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metalmob
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Post by metalmob on Jun 28, 2022 10:46:05 GMT -5
Sometimes American companies or other companies give orders to Korean companies, and Korean companies will find Chinese factories to produce.
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bw13
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Post by bw13 on Jul 15, 2022 15:27:25 GMT -5
Fleor claims that they use "white copper"now (would appreciate if you can enlighten me about this white copper stuff) so not sure about covers, but on the other hand wilkinson (on ali) claim that they use both nickel silver covers and baseplates...and they speced out like seth lovers (though in description nothing is said about output so you should dm them)
Also my guess would be covered donlis are also nickel silver.
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bw13
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Post by bw13 on Aug 9, 2023 10:42:09 GMT -5
Hi all! so i bought fleors take on pafs, again zebra, came with 1000 ring screws, flat ring cream (which i asked) and i specified that i wanted paf output cuz i didnt wanted to get high output one by accident, measured it 9.07kohms, i did cut and sanded non threaded sides of screws now it's 9.23... now they come with fleor label stickers and baseplate has veeery small code on em, everythings good except bobbins aren't taped individually on each coil... Is it 'normal' ? Should i do it? Never opened pickups so far...but i clearly see winding on coils and both ar just taped over togehter
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Post by antigua on Aug 10, 2023 3:45:39 GMT -5
9k would usually indicate a hotter humbucker, but we don't know what gauge of wire they used. The one I measured showed 3.6H inductance for 7.4k DC resistance, by comparison an SD 59 measure 4.4H for 7.4k DC resistance, that's a much lower inductance for the same DC resistance, suggesting that there are fewer turns of wire on the FLEOR coils despite the higher DC resistances. If you measure 9k, I suspect it will end up sounding like an average PAF, and not an "overwound" one.
I hadn't heard of "white copper", apparently it's also called "cupronickel", but looking it up, it seems to be like something in between brass and nickel silver. Cupronickel has copper and nickel, which is like nickel silver without zinc. It's less conductive than brass, but more conductive than nickel silver. The proportions of metal in the alloys can vary though, knowing that Fleor is a budget Chinese pickup, it's usually safe to assume that they're putting cost before performance with their metal alloys.
For the base plate, the conductivity isn't really that important, it makes no audible difference in the resonance, especially with volume and tone control pot loads present. Some baseplates, I think from Fleor, were made of aluminum though, and that was bad if for no other reason than you can't solder anything to it.
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bw13
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Post by bw13 on Aug 13, 2023 11:05:03 GMT -5
on the same page with paf and overwound but i tend to pour bottles of water on my head will wax potting do it's job or i still wanna tape over individual bobbins ?
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Post by antigua on Aug 14, 2023 19:25:53 GMT -5
If they are squealing, wax potting will work a lot better than taping the coils.
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bw13
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Post by bw13 on Aug 16, 2023 15:22:34 GMT -5
they are wax potted i meant to avoid moisture or some kind of damage
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, though fleor nowdays claim that they are doing "Copper Base Plate" pretty much on every pickup. is that the same as nickel silver ? 
