escotth
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Post by escotth on Jun 15, 2020 20:32:56 GMT -5
Hey all!
I have a local kid that brought me a guitar he was trying to wire up and it is a real hot mess! That said, I am an electronics guys, not a guitar guy, so I apologize for my ignorance right up front - I'm just trying to help this kid out.
I'm hoping someone can help me put together a wiring diagram so I can get it wired and soldered together and he can get to playing.
Here is what he has and what he is trying to accomplish:
I've pulled what little hair I have out searching for a sample diagram and this seems to be an odd case... that, or I am just losing my skills with the Google.
I hope this is enough to get the ball rolling. Please let me know if you need any additional information, pics, etc...
Thanks!
Scott
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Post by thetragichero on Jun 15, 2020 21:50:13 GMT -5
hello and welcome to our forum! look up any standard strat wiring diagram (with a neck tone and a middle tone). notice that side of the switch where the tone controls are connected to having an empty lug? that's where your bridge tone control connects to. wire that tone control like the others some other kind soul may come around with a diagram but in currently in the middle of working on a guitar so hopefully text helps  |
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Post by newey on Jun 16, 2020 6:01:23 GMT -5
escotth-
Tragichero is right, the kid's wish list is essentially a standard Stratocaster wiring with the addition of a bridge tone control. P90 pickups are single-coil pickups, from an electronics perspective they will be wired just like Strat single-coils, they are two-wire pickups (although those P90s may have a shield wire that Strat pickups lack, the shields are always wired to ground).
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Post by reTrEaD on Jun 16, 2020 7:36:23 GMT -5
More information would be needed about this switch before we can recommend a wiring diagram for you. Does the layout of the lugs look like one of these? If so, which one?  |
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escotth
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Post by escotth on Jun 16, 2020 11:34:57 GMT -5
Thanks for the feedback so far.
If you don't mind, I'm going to work on my diagram and then post it here for feedback.
Scott
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escotth
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Post by escotth on Jun 16, 2020 11:59:17 GMT -5
  Here are the pics of the pickups and 5-way. |
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Post by newey on Jun 16, 2020 12:58:56 GMT -5
Your switch logic will be the same as the one marked "import" in RT's graphic posted above. Can't really make out the wiring on the P90s, but looks to be standard 2-wire. We'll be happy to vet your diagram.
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escotth
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Post by escotth on Jun 16, 2020 14:53:39 GMT -5
Well, here is my starting point. Wish me luck!
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Post by reTrEaD on Jun 16, 2020 16:18:40 GMT -5
If you don't mind, I'm going to work on my diagram and then post it here for feedback. That sounds like a great idea. You'll learn much more if you take the lead on this. Here are the pics of the pickups and 5-way. The 5-way is clearly a Schaller Megaswitch S or T. The newer version of these two models share the same printed board. Hopefully the one you have has a FIVE-position detent mechanism. Also, the black jumper between pads 4 and 5 suggests this has been wired the same way one would wire a Japanese 'import' 5-way. That will NOT work properly.Pad 4 and pad 8 are the 'poles' of this switch. Here are a couple of pics, front and back which should make it possible to reason-out how this switch functions. (click an image for a larger version) |
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escotth
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Post by escotth on Jun 16, 2020 16:54:53 GMT -5
OK... Here is what I have been able to put together.
Thoughts?
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Post by sumgai on Jun 16, 2020 17:48:35 GMT -5
scotty, Hi, and  to The NutzHouse!  Your diagram is almost 100% correct.... the only error being that the Bridge and Middle tone controls are reversed (or mislabeled ). I am an electronics guys, not a guitar guy.... Oh yes you are! Here in the guitar world, switching is all about logic, and the controls (Volume and Tone) are as simple as you can get..... albeit some (lots of) folks try to complicate it. Don't worry you're already a member of the club!  HTH sumgai |
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escotth
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Post by escotth on Jun 16, 2020 19:28:52 GMT -5
Yeah, it looks like I reversed the wiring on pins 6 and 7 of the 5-way.
I'm going to order the caps tonight and get to wiring as soon as they come in. I'll try and post a video of the final product once it is running.
Thanks, all!
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Post by reTrEaD on Jun 16, 2020 23:27:07 GMT -5
Your diagram is almost 100% correct.... the only error being that the Bridge and Middle tone controls are reversed (or mislabeled ). That is not correct. The connection to the Middle tone control is exactly where it should be (on pad 5). Whether or not the connections to the Bridge and Neck tone controls are on the right pads depends on which way the switch is oriented. But the connection to the Middle pickup is definitely wrong. That should be connected to pad 1. Please refer to the second image in my previous post.
escotth If you could please indicate which orientation the 5-way will have in the guitar, I can tell you the proper connections to the 5-way. In other words, which end will be closest to the tail of the guitar. The end near pad 1 or the end near pad 8? Also, you can have three tone caps if you want. Hover you only need one (Fender only uses one tone cap in their Strats, even with two tone controls.) I can explain how to use a single tone cap if you are interested. |
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Post by Yogi B on Jun 17, 2020 0:08:10 GMT -5
Your diagram is almost 100% correct.... the only error being that the Bridge and Middle tone controls are reversed (or mislabeled ). That is not correct. The connection to the Middle tone control is exactly where it should be (on pad 5). Whether or not the connections to the Bridge and Neck tone controls are on the right pads depends on which way the switch is oriented. But the connection to the Middle pickup is definitely wrong. That should be connected to pad 1. That caught me out too 'til I remembered it's a Schaller switch. (I don't know what advantage is gained by having the terminals laid out in a way that doesn't follow that of a typical import switch.) Not if you want three different values you can't (look closer at the caps in the diagram). Additionally, having three tone capacitors lets you wire each pickup directly to its relevant tone control, which would mean that only half of the 5-way switch would be necessary for the required switching. That neatens up the wiring because all three wires from each pickup can be soldered in relative proximity to each other: the 'positive' wire to the centre lug of the tone control and the 'negative' & shield wires can be grounded to the casing -- you would then run a wire from the same centre lug of each tone control over to the switch. Furthermore, assuming the volume control is located next to the three tone controls you could then use a shielded 4 conductor wire to run the signal between the controls and the switch. |
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Post by reTrEaD on Jun 17, 2020 8:55:44 GMT -5
Also, you can have three tone caps if you want. Hover you only need one (Fender only uses one tone cap in their Strats, even with two tone controls.) I can explain how to use a single tone cap if you are interested. Not if you want three different values you can't (look closer at the caps in the diagram). Fair enough. (I don't know what advantage is gained by having the terminals laid out in a way that doesn't follow that of a typical import switch.) The Japanese import strat 5-ways have three 'rings' of stationary contacts. They use just two moveable contacts that bridge between these rings and bridge between all three rings in the positions where there are three contacts being made. I haven't dissected one of these, but I think the moveable contacts are of 'bent metal spring' design. Megaswitches use just two rings and four moveable contacts. The moveable contacts are each a polished cylindrical 'rod' laying across the rings. They use tiny coil springs in the plastic rotator to push the rods against the rings. This is a highly reliable design and isn't prone to issues like difference in level of the two rings but I think that would become a problem if there were three rings. Also, they can use exactly the same rotator, coil springs and contact rods in every Megaswitch, regardless of type. Without the option to bridge between more than two rings, the only connections that can share the same outer ring in a given quadrant are the Neck and Bridge. So those two contacts areas must be next to each other. It WOULD be possible to use a double-sided foil board and plated-thru holes to change the order of the solder pads. But to save cost, they use a single-sided foil board. This is a win for the bean counters. Personally I think we should concede this particular win to them. Having a more logical layout of pads would be nice but it doesn't improve the performance. (BTW, I have dissected a Megaswitch. I recommend extreme caution for anyone who would attempt this as the springs are tiny and easily lost. Also it's an extremely tricky business to reassemble the rotator, springs, contactor, and printed board. But if you are willing to write off one unit for the sake of education, it could definitely be worth the price.) |
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escotth
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Post by escotth on Jun 17, 2020 10:37:05 GMT -5
The switch is oriented with Position 1 towards the bridge and Position 5 towards the neck.
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Post by reTrEaD on Jun 17, 2020 12:20:50 GMT -5
The switch is oriented with Position 1 towards the bridge and Position 5 towards the neck. You and I are talking two different languages here. The 'numbered positions' are arbitrary and ambiguous. What I needed to know is the orientation of the switch using the eight solder pads as a guide. To shorten the number of exchanges, I made a double table. Choose the appropriate section based on the relationship of the numbered solder pads relative to the neck and tail of the guitar. This will insure the Bridge Pickup and Bridge tone are selected when the lever is pushed toward the tail of the guitar. | Neck <- Pad1 - Pad8 -> Tail |
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| Pad-1 | Middle Pickup | | Pad-2 | Bridge Pickup | | Pad-3 | Neck Pickup | | Pad-4 | Hot (Jumper to pad-8) | | Pad-5 | Middle Tone | | Pad-6 | Bridge Tone | | Pad-7 | Neck Tone | | Pad-8 | Hot (Jumper to pad-4) | | | | Neck <- Pad8 - Pad1 -> Tail |
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| Pad-1 | Middle Pickup | | Pad-2 | Neck Pickup | | Pad-3 | Bridge Pickup | | Pad-4 | Hot (Jumper to pad-8) | | Pad-5 | Middle Tone | | Pad-6 | Neck Tone | | Pad-7 | Bridge Tone | | Pad-8 | Hot (Jumper to pad-4) | |
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Post by sumgai on Jun 17, 2020 15:58:45 GMT -5
Your diagram is almost 100% correct.... the only error being that the Bridge and Middle tone controls are reversed (or mislabeled ). That is not correct. The connection to the Middle tone control is exactly where it should be (on pad 5). Whether or not the connections to the Bridge and Neck tone controls are on the right pads depends on which way the switch is oriented. But the connection to the Middle pickup is definitely wrong. That should be connected to pad 1. Please refer to the second image in my previous post. OK, OK, I get it, I was lazy. This is what we get when someone goes off the rails and believes his "better idea" should be brought to market, expressly to upend many decades of standardization. I say, a pox upon such people!  'TrEaD, I don't buy your follow-on explanation to Yogi. While you (and others) claim the Megaswitch is robust, the fact is that only time can render such a verdict. And time has been gracious to the Oakes/Grigsby design - unless it is monkeyed with, then it will last pretty much a human-lifetime. Remember, these things date back before WWII, and are still being made today. Faulty-designed parts, planned-obsolescence-designed parts, they tend not to last so long. sumgai |
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Post by frets on Jun 17, 2020 16:30:45 GMT -5
Sumgai, I can attest to the high quality of the actual Freeway Switch. Thank heavens he’s not doing a Freeway Blade, they never ever fit a cavity, one always has to carefully sand down the board to get the thing to fit. Also, once it’s in; and, you monkey with it, a lot of the positions one will probably never use. For the cost benefit, I believe a Superswitch is the best solution for modded complexity. Not to rain on anybody’s parade but I’ve put them in guitars and have had a chance to compare. That’s just my opinion.
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Post by reTrEaD on Jun 17, 2020 18:10:57 GMT -5
'TrEaD, I don't buy your follow-on explanation to Yogi. Why not? It accurately describes why Schaller/Eyb chose to use a different layout for the connections compared with the Japanese Import strat switches. Yes, I realize you're looking to derail this with an editorial regarding the Oak Grigsby/CRL switches but they were NOT the subject of Yogi's question. |
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Post by sumgai on Jun 17, 2020 22:54:59 GMT -5
'TrEaD, I don't buy your follow-on explanation to Yogi. Why not? It accurately describes why Schaller/Eyb chose to use a different layout for the connections compared with the Japanese Import strat switches. Yes, I realize you're looking to derail this with an editorial regarding the Oak Grigsby/CRL switches but they were NOT the subject of Yogi's question. No derailing involved, but yes, it is my opinion and not much else. Regardless of what Yogi is going on about, all, repeat all, of the imitators have one thing in common: they believe that they can do the job better. Fact is, nope. When you lay out something in a nonsensical manner, particularly when someone else has already done the job in the most straightforward manner possible, then you are simply pissing in everyone else's Cheerios, that's all. But I'll certainly give you points for trying to capitalize on it!  I will modify my opinion about longevity, however. I can see that when one contact is moved across another contact, there is a friction of some amount, and that will cause wear. The amount of wear (the longevity/life-span) of the two conductors will depend on the quality of the materials involved. Most switches use a plated aluminum, or something similar, and that plating can go away after many years (or it can get "dirty", about the same thing to the user). If the more expensive "wanna-be" designs use a better quality material (read: longer lasting), then I will gladly hand it to them for that portion in their thinking/realization of their goal. sumgai |
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escotth
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Post by escotth on Jun 18, 2020 13:04:21 GMT -5
The switch is oriented with Position 1 towards the bridge and Position 5 towards the neck. You and I are talking two different languages here. The 'numbered positions' are arbitrary and ambiguous. What I needed to know is the orientation of the switch using the eight solder pads as a guide. To shorten the number of exchanges, I made a double table. Choose the appropriate section based on the relationship of the numbered solder pads relative to the neck and tail of the guitar. This will insure the Bridge Pickup and Bridge tone are selected when the lever is pushed toward the tail of the guitar. | Neck <- Pad1 - Pad8 -> Tail |
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| Pad-1 | Middle Pickup | | Pad-2 | Bridge Pickup | | Pad-3 | Neck Pickup | | Pad-4 | Hot (Jumper to pad-8) | | Pad-5 | Middle Tone | | Pad-6 | Bridge Tone | | Pad-7 | Neck Tone | | Pad-8 | Hot (Jumper to pad-4) | | | | Neck <- Pad8 - Pad1 -> Tail |
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| Pad-1 | Middle Pickup | | Pad-2 | Neck Pickup | | Pad-3 | Bridge Pickup | | Pad-4 | Hot (Jumper to pad-8) | | Pad-5 | Middle Tone | | Pad-6 | Neck Tone | | Pad-7 | Bridge Tone | | Pad-8 | Hot (Jumper to pad-4) | |
reTrEaD: It would be as shown in Table 1. Thanks! Scott |
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Post by reTrEaD on Jun 18, 2020 22:04:22 GMT -5
reTrEaD: It would be as shown in Table 1. Thanks! Scott Okay then. If you exchange the connections to pad-1 and pad-2 on your drawing, you should be in business. Please post back after you've done the wiring to indicate whether you were successful or need more help. |
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escotth
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Post by escotth on Jun 19, 2020 12:53:26 GMT -5
Thanks!
The caps arrived today. I am wiring as we speak and will let you know how it turned out.
Scott
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escotth
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Post by escotth on Jun 19, 2020 15:18:19 GMT -5
OK... So I have a new wrinkle...
The P90's are in humbucker format, so the wiring is red, white, black and bare/shield. My research says that the white's go to the 5-way and the red/black/bare go to ground, swapping the red for the white if they are out of phase when coupled.
Does that sound correct?
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Post by thetragichero on Jun 19, 2020 16:04:10 GMT -5
do we know who makes the pickups? 'round here folks tend to be a little more meticulous than just blithely saying "yeah sure probably." measure twice, cut once y'know?
if we can find the manufacturer's site we can know for sure. personally i find guitar-sized electronics a little small to have to desolder and move around stuff without using language unsafe for our family-friendly forum
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Post by reTrEaD on Jun 19, 2020 16:49:53 GMT -5
My research says that the white's go to the 5-way and the red/black/bare go to ground, swapping the red for the white if they are out of phase when coupled. Does that sound correct? I don't have any information on Reverend color codes. You might want to call or email someone from their tech support and ask. www.reverendguitars.com/supportOr use an DVM set to measure resistance (20k ohm scale will probably be okay) and measure between two wires at a time. You could use a matrix like this, fill in the blanks (x indicates redundancy so just ignore those cells), and we could probably figure it out.
| Red
| White
| Black
| Bare
| | Red | x | | | | | White | x | x | | | Black
| x | x | x | | | Bare | x | x | x | x |
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escotth
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Post by escotth on Jun 22, 2020 17:09:14 GMT -5
OK - Project Update The 5-way was damaged from previous soldering attempts a too high a temperature (before it came to me). I ordered a replacement switch, which is an in-line 5-way, import style. Unfortunately, it didn't come with a wiring diagram, so I used a multimeter to test continuity between all the pins in all the positions. Here is what I came up with:  Note: I clipped the bridge between pins 4 and 5, since I wanted to know how the board is wired - I can always bridge them back together. Next, I am going to try and translate the old wiring to the new switch. I will post what I come up with. Thanks, again, for all the guidance. Scott |
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Post by sumgai on Jun 23, 2020 12:17:26 GMT -5
Scott, Errr, doesn't Pin 1 connect to anything?  sumgai |
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Post by reTrEaD on Jun 23, 2020 15:25:57 GMT -5
Errr, doesn't Pin 1 connect to anything? That's only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the shortcomings of this table. escotth , while there may be some benefit to examining every possible combination of pairs of the first four lugs and the last four lugs, you need to include, at the very least, three key pairings of the first four lugs and three key pairings on the last four lugs. I suggest you make a new table with the same rows as you have now. But have the left-most column of your table show the following pairs: 1 to 4 2 to 4 3 to 4 6 to 5 7 to 5 8 to 5 If you want to also include other pairings such as 1 to 2, 2 to 3, and 1 to 3 (this particular pair will not be connected in any position) that's okay, although not terribly necessary. |
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