Super Tele with 5-way

[orpheusphd]

Nov 15, 2020 17:45:59 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

• What are the resistance(s) and taper(s) of the stacked pots?
• Somewhat dependent on that answer, is the plan to have one of the stacked pots for both volumes & the other for both tones or one for both neck controls & the other for the bridge?
• What style of superswitch do you have, and are there any cavity restrictions that necessitate that you install it in a particular orientation? (i.e. whether the terminals must face the floor or the sky)
• Expanding on the previous, is the switch in the traditional Tele location (at the end of the control plate closest to the neck) or somewhere else?
• You, or rather orpheusphd , isn't left-handed, correct?
• Is there anything that I've forgotten?

They are 500k concentric pots from Warmoth, here.

The plan was for Volume/Tone for one pickup on each stack, but if it makes considerably more sense to do V/V and T/T, that will work.

It is the Fender Superswitch, here. I don't know if there is a cavity restriction.

It is not the traditional location. It is a Squier VM Thinline.

I am right handed.

I sure as hell can't answer the last question 🤣

[mellotron]

Deleted by mellotron.

[Yogi B]

Nov 15, 2020 18:12:59 GMT -5 orpheusphd said:

I don't know if there is a cavity restriction ... It is a Squier VM Thinline.

Well since it's a Thinline we know that at least about half the guitar is cavity, unfortunately it's the wrong half that we can be sure about, where the controls aren't. Some Thinlines are chambered both sides, others just under the f-hole. However even if the latter is the case, the control cavity ought to be at least a little roomier than a regular Tele -- hopefully enough that there won't be any issues.

I sure as hell can't answer the last question 🤣

I did forget something: which way up d'ya want the stacked controls? Volumes on the top knobs and tones on the lower knobs, or the opposite?

Additionally, I presume you'll want the stacked knobs closest to the neck be responsible for the neck pickup, and the stack further away responsible for the bridge.

[mellotron]

I can Dremel out some wood to make room for the SuperSwitch, if required. Do not consider space an issue.

Waiting to hear back from Warmoth. Our assumption is that the pots are audio/log taper. Surprised that the website does not clearly state the taper. Being a guitar parts company, I would be even more surprised if they are linear taper.

[sumgai]

Nov 16, 2020 23:36:26 GMT -5 mellotron said:

..... Surprised that the website does not clearly state the taper. Being a guitar parts company, I would be even more surprised if they are linear taper.

There are still some of us around who happen to like linear taper, we simply don't feel the urgency of having a level drop be some exacting amount of rotation/travel. Not to mention those of us who simply dime the pots for their entire lives - that's what stomp boxes are for.


Or if you're like me, you remote everything - the pots are gone, simply non-existent in the axe. A foot volume control, as programmed by a MIDI box, is more than sufficient. (I had a helluve a hard enough time just trying to get my fingers to flail at the strings without sounding like a spastic! On-board controls were out of my purview.)  And at that, the foot control was only for balancing with other players, not to jack me up or down as I desired.

Interesting note:  I've always marveled at players who constantly, even in mid-song, fiddle with their volume or tone controls. I mean, come on, you didn't touch that thing enough to make any difference, why do you imagine that you "just created the most beautiful sound ever heard"?   And why, if it was so beautiful, did you try to improve it a few seconds later?
</rant>





sumgai

[mellotron]

OK, Warmoth has confirmed that they are audio/log taper.

[mellotron]

Nov 15, 2020 17:45:59 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

I was also going to pull you up on the fact that usually with a pair of full-size (PAF-style) humbuckers the two inner coils are the same polarity as each other, and thus are the two outer coils, not one of each as per your listing -- however upon looking up images of the SD Hot Rails Tele pickups I see that what you wrote is true.

Therefore, as it stands my schematic would give the inner coils. Alternatively the outer coils could be selected by swapping the north/south coils of each pickup, but with the Hot Rails' coils being in such close proximity the difference between inner/outer will be minimal.

Since we want hum-cancelling options whenever mixing a neck single-coil with a bridge single-coil, does it matter which pairs of coils we use? Is the combination of both outer coils the same as one outer and one inner, and the same as both inners? 

If there are no other suggestions for Yogi's schematic, are we clear to proceed to a wiring diagram?

[unreg]

Nov 20, 2020 17:30:29 GMT -5 mellotron said:

Nov 15, 2020 17:45:59 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

I was also going to pull you up on the fact that usually with a pair of full-size (PAF-style) humbuckers the two inner coils are the same polarity as each other, and thus are the two outer coils, not one of each as per your listing -- however upon looking up images of the SD Hot Rails Tele pickups I see that what you wrote is true.

Therefore, as it stands my schematic would give the inner coils. Alternatively the outer coils could be selected by swapping the north/south coils of each pickup, but with the Hot Rails' coils being in such close proximity the difference between inner/outer will be minimal.

Since we want hum-cancelling options whenever mixing a neck single-coil with a bridge single-coil, does it matter which pairs of coils we use? Is the combination of both outer coils the same as one outer and one inner, and the same as both inners?

hi Sir, Yogi B said, “the difference between inner/outer will be minimal.”

The projects on this site are always exciting!

[ashcatlt]

Well you need to pick RWRP combinations. That will either be like coils or opposite but not both. If it’s like pairs, then it doesn’t matter which two you pick, and likewise if it’s opposite, it won’t matter which pair of opposites you choose.

[Yogi B]

Nov 20, 2020 17:30:29 GMT -5 mellotron said:

Nov 15, 2020 17:45:59 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

Therefore, as it stands my schematic would give the inner coils. Alternatively the outer coils could be selected by swapping the north/south coils of each pickup, but with the Hot Rails' coils being in such close proximity the difference between inner/outer will be minimal.

Since we want hum-cancelling options whenever mixing a neck single-coil with a bridge single-coil, does it matter which pairs of coils we use? Is the combination of both outer coils the same as one outer and one inner, and the same as both inners?

I missed an important word out of that last thought: "the tonal difference between inner/outer will be minimal". In order to achieve hum-cancelling we'll need two coils that are RWRP with respect to each other (one north coil & one south coil). As for whether that's inner coils, outer coils, or one of each is dependent on the pickups. In probably 90% of cases the arrangement of the coils in a pair of humbuckers is symmetrical -- the two outer coils would be the same polarity/winding-direction as each other, and the two inner coils would also be the same polarity/winding-direction as each other but both opposite to the outer coils. This is a hangover from the early PAF days when there wasn't the idea of "a bridge pickup" and "a neck pickup", but instead two identical pickups.

Having looked up the SD Hot Rails, they're in the minority of pickups where the two inner coils are RWRP with respect to each other and by extension so are the outer coils.

If there are no other suggestions for Yogi's schematic, are we clear to proceed to a wiring diagram?

I've already drawn up most of the switching (ashcatlt, you'll be happy to know I went with your exact suggestion for shorting the neck pickup, because it means that all the wires from the neck pickup can be soldered to the switch, rather than split between the switch & stacked pot -- I've also done something similar the the bridge pickup to the same end).

The main remaining question I have is whether orpheusphd would like the stacked controls to have the volumes on the wider bottom knobs and the tones on the narrower top knobs, or vice-versa. (Since Warmoth have confirmed that the taper of both elements is log, either way round is possible.)

[mellotron]

Orpheus says volumes on top please.

[Yogi B]

Here it is (click to open full size version):

With respect to my previous schematic: the neck humbucker in now shorted in position 1, the series link (green & black in this case) is connected together, and separately the hot & ground (red & white) wires are also connected; in position 5 the bridge white wire is now grounded & the 'upper' half of the volume pot is shorted; and the tone capacitors are now on the 'ground-side' of the tone pot rather than the 'hot side'.

None of these changes should have a meaningful impact on the selected pickups/controls or the resulting tones.

Finally I've now included the recommended treble bleeds (150kΩ resistor in parallel with 1nF cap) -- besides helping to retain treble as the volumes are lowered, they'll also make the volume pots' taper closer to linear which will help make blending a little easier in the positions where that's relevant.

[orpheusphd]

Nov 22, 2020 19:22:56 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

Here it is:

[snip]

With respect to my previous schematic: the neck humbucker in now shorted in position 1, the series link (green & black in this case) is connected together, and separately the hot & ground (red & white) wires are also connected; in position 5 the bridge white wire is now grounded & the 'upper' half of the volume pot is shorted; and the tone capacitors are now on the 'ground-side' of the tone pot rather than the 'hot side'.

None of these changes should have a meaningful impact on the selected pickups/controls or the resulting tones.

Finally I've now included the recommended treble bleeds (150kΩ resistor in parallel with 1nF cap) -- besides helping to retain treble as the volumes are lowered, they'll also make the volume pots' taper closer to linear which will help make blending a little easier in the positions where that's relevant.

Thank you so much! And thank you everybody else for your input. Can't wait to get it wired up and play around with the new sounds 😁

[mellotron]

As Dr. Orpheus said, thanks to everyone for the help. Awesome diagram, YogiB. If we can't follow that, it's our fault!

Do we get 1/2 watt, 1/4 watt resistors? Carbon vs. metal film?

Are people commonly using ceramic disc caps or polyester/mylar?

For humbuckers, don't they usually use .047uF (.022uF for single coils)? I will pick up two of each; just curious.

[newey]

Nov 23, 2020 0:14:44 GMT -5 mellotron said:

For humbuckers, don't they usually use .047uF (.022uF for single coils)? I will pick up two of each; just curious.

Those are typical values to use, some folks like different values. I often use .033 for both HBs and SCs.

As for the cap construction, I stay away from the ceramic ones. The green poly ones are fine, as are the metal film ones. Wattage rating won't matter; your guitar pickups put out way less than a quarter watt.

[reTrEaD]

Nov 23, 2020 0:14:44 GMT -5 mellotron said:

For humbuckers, don't they usually use .047uF (.022uF for single coils)?

That's more myth than fact, although the myth is widespread.

Since most HBs have more series resistance and inductance than most SCs, to have the treble roll off at the same frequency a smaller cap should be used on a guitar with HBs.

But in practice, the size of the tone cap tends to vary from one manufacturer to another. And often the manufacturer will use the same size cap on both their HB equipped guitars and SC equipped guitars.

Ibanez uses a 0.33 0.022 µF cap on most models.

Gibson (contrary to popular belief) specs a 0.2 0.02 µF tone cap on most of their wiring diagrams. It has become increasingly difficult to find original Gibson wiring diagrams but GuitarElectronics has a list of links to many of the Gibson drawings (in PDF format).

Fender (bless their hearts) have the most variation in cap size, often on the same model but in different eras. The '50s Strat had a big honkin' 0.1 µF cap. Modern Strats use a 0.022 µF cap. Telecasters use either 0.05 µF or a 0.022 µF depending on sub-model and year.

[JohnH]

You can audition the caps to suit your preferences.

The first thing to realise is that the cap makes zero (to several decimal places) difference at max treble, All caps sound the same across a wide range of types and values. At max treble, the effect of the tone circuit is entirely related to the value of the tone pot.

So at max treble, the choices are related to the pot, higher value or maybe a no-load pot if you want to have the most max brightness available.

This regime whereby the cap has little effect is largely consistent down to around mid-turn on the tone pot.

Below that, the cap starts to come into play. The best settings for choosing tone caps are at very low settings, and pick a cap to give you your best muted or honky tone, even if you don't go there often. Whatever cap you pick there will have negligible effect at the more useful higher settings of the tone pot.

I like 0.022uF on all my guitars.

[Yogi B]

Nov 23, 2020 11:12:25 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

Nov 23, 2020 0:14:44 GMT -5 mellotron said:

For humbuckers, don't they usually use .047uF (.022uF for single coils)?

That's more myth than fact, although the myth is widespread.

I'll swear that the most widespread version of this that I've seen posted has the values other way around (and thus is a little closer to the truth).

Ibanez uses a 0.33 µF cap on most models.

0.33μF, that's 330nF -- I think perhaps you're confused with their usual treble bleed caps which are 0.33nF (= 330pF)? FWIW both of my Ibanez's came with 22nF tone caps.

Gibson (contrary to popular belief) specs a 0.2µF tone cap on most of their wiring diagrams.

And that's 200nF. So, maybe today you've just developed a habit of putting the decimal point one place to the right of where it should be?

Gibson (contrary to reTrEaD's typo) specs a .02μF (= 20nF) tone cap on most of their wiring diagrams.

It has become increasingly difficult to find original Gibson wiring diagrams but GuitarElectronics has a list of links to many of the Gibson drawings (in PDF format).

(and a few in GIF format) It might be important to note that GuitarElectronics isn't hosting the files -- they are links to images.gibson.com. I think this list used to be presented somewhere on the gibson.com site but was removed at some point, the guitar/bass schematics it lists are the same as those that can still be found on the gibson.jp site, which includes amp schematics too.

---

mellotron: In general within a passive guitar circuit not to give component material too much thought, I'd say to use whatever is most easily available to you -- it's going to make little, if any, perceptible difference. The variance of the components' true values from their specified values will have a greater, though still not huge, effect.

Like JohnH, I tend to use 22nF tone caps in everything.

[reTrEaD]

Nov 23, 2020 17:21:34 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

So, maybe today you've just developed a habit of putting the decimal point one place to the right of where it should be?

Yes, but not consistently. I dropped the zero to the right of the decimal point for Ibanez and Gibson but not for Fender. And yeah, the 33 was was probably misremembered by me because of their treble-bleed caps.

Definitely off my game today.

Nov 23, 2020 17:21:34 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

It has become increasingly difficult to find original Gibson wiring diagrams but GuitarElectronics has a list of links to many of the Gibson drawings (in PDF format).

(and a few in GIF format) It might be important to note that GuitarElectronics isn't hosting the files -- they are links to images.gibson.com. I think this list used to be presented somewhere on the gibson.com site but was removed at some point, the guitar/bass schematics it lists are the same as those that can still be found on the gibson.jp site, which includes amp schematics too.

iirc the page with all the links on Gibson's US site hasn't been part of their overview for a few years now. Not sure if the page is completely removed or if there just aren't any links that lead to that page. Probably the former.

Gibson amp schematics can be found at SchematicHeaven, although I'm not sure if their Gibson section has every amp found on the Gibson Japan site.

If I wasn't feeling so lazy today, I'd download all the files for safekeeping. Who knows when that resource will evaporate?

[mellotron]

Hi all. I just wanted to give a bit of an update.

Doc Orpheus and I were going to work on this together over Thanksgiving weekend. Our local gubment decided to shut things down a bit, so the doctor's mom and I only went for a day trip. I brought the Tele home with me and just got started on it yesterday. 

I am not at any wiring stage yet. I gutted the body and shielded all the cavities with copper tape. I have also installed the new bridge pickup and remounted the bridge.

I promised to have it ready for Christmas, when we expect to see each other next. Will install the neck pickup and start with the wiring tomorrow.

[mellotron]

The Tele is done and it works as advertised! Can't tell you how much I appreciate all the help we got on this.

Orpheus will get the guitar back this weekend. I will let him update you further on how it sounds.

[orpheusphd]

Well, that took me long enough! Sound samples here! Thank you again for all the help.