Super Tele with 5-way

[mellotron]

Hi all,

I am about to help my son with a rewiring project for his Tele. He wants to replace the two single-coil pickups with SD Hot Rails, the three-way switch with a five-way SuperSwitch, and the standard volume and tone with two stacked volume/tone pots. We have found lots of options for one volume and one tone, but not for two pairs. He is also not interested in any additional switch for ten sounds, just five non-standard combos. In other words, this will be wired like a Les Paul with a 5-way.

The pickup combinations he wants to get are:

1 - Bridge humbucker
2 - Bridge and neck split, in parallel
3 - Bridge and neck humbuckers, in parallel
4 - Bridge and neck split, in series
5 - Neck humbucker

With separate volume controls, his intention is to be able to remove the volume on one pickup in order to get the other pickup, stand-alone, in split modes.

Is this doable? I am handy enough with a soldering iron, but not figuring out the wiring or the potential pitfalls in the design.

Would appreciate any help we can get!

[newey]

mellotron-

Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!

The pickup switching should be possible with a Superswitch™, but be aware that the regular Superswitch will not fit a Tele cavity without modification to the cavity side wall. However, there is a "narrow Superswitch" available that solves the issue.

As for the V and T controls being used to "zero out" one pickup, this will present issues. The controls will interact, just as they do on an LP, when both pickups are "on" in parallel. Turning one down will also turn down the other. There is no easy way around this. An extra switch for splitting the pickups would be an option to work around this, but the premise you gave was no added switches.

Let's let some others weigh in, maybe there's a way I'm not thinking of at the moment after only 2 cups of coffee . . .

BTW, I am one of a rapidly-shrinking group who has actually "played" a Mellotron ("played" in quotes because I'm definitely no keyboardist!). When I recently explained to a millenial how one worked, I got a "WTF?" look . . .

[mellotron]

Thanks for the welcome, Newey. I was actually semi-active on here about 15 years ago (username "servant"), couldn't remember my password and no longer have access to the email account I likely used back then so didn't try requesting a password reset.

I rewired my Les Paul to one of two "50's wiring" schemes. While I am not sold that it made a difference in tone, it did remove my ability to do "slicing." Now, when one pickup is turned all the way down, I still hear the other pickup. Perhaps this can be incorporated into this Tele. Will wait for others to chime in.


Sidebar
---------
I could hijack my own thread and turn this into a pleasant Mellotron discussion, but I will just say that I have played a Chamberlain and a few original Mellotrons, as well as one of the modern, digital M4000D models. The son with the Tele, my wife and I have visited the Mellotron workshop in Stockholm, Sweden. I have become friends with the owner, and have worked nose to nose with him on a Mk II, M300 and M400 here in Canada. I have been fascinated with these keyboards since seeing and hearing John Paul Jones play one at Zep concerts.

[sumgai]

'tron,



I recall you, we had several go-rounds, way back when.


Let me "advise" you of the scope of your problem here.... In series mode, you can't have the pickup "ground" leads both going to ground - one of them will be hooked up to the positive lead of the remaining pup. That's easily understood, it's basic Series Theory, right? Well, that works out nicely when there's a Master Vol pot in the scheme, but when you want to use individual controls, things get complicated - in a hurry.

In normal arrangements, a Vol pot is in parallel with the pickup - one side of each is hot, the other side goes to ground, and in the case of the pot, the wiper goes to the selector switch and then on out to the jack. But in series, one of the Vol pots must be disconnected from ground by a switch pole, and connected to that pup's ostensible ground lead. Failure to do so means that when the pups are placed in series, you'll get two (undesirable) results:

a) The positive (hot) lead of the remaining pup will be connected to ground through the pot - turn it down, and both signals will be reduced or turned off completely;
b) That pup's Vol control will no longer work as expected/intended - it's now a rheostat* instead of a potentiometer... not a good thing at all when it comes to controlling a volume level.

And to put paid to it all, these two assertions will be true regardless of which way your Vol pots are wired, normal or "backwards".

Which brings us back to your question - will it work?  At this point, I'm not 100% certain that a solitary 4P5T will do the entire job, I'd have to sit down and plot it all out on the CAD machine before I can give you are definitive answer.  But as luck would have it, your "missing" interval of years has brought to The NutzHouse a plethora of talented people.  I'm certain that before I can get up off this chair (and strike another item from the Honey-Do list), someone is going to give you a blockbuster of a solution, and you'll be wondering why you ever "forgot" to sign in on a regular basis.

HTH





sumgai

* And a loaded rheostat, to be sure, one where the loading will remain constant, but the resultant controlled voltage (signal level) will vary only a tiny amount, over a very narrow rotation range.

[orpheusphd]

Aforementioned son, here.

If I'm understanding right, you guys are saying I won't be able to have independent volume controls for each pickup while they are coil split? I'm not opposed to changing up what positions 2 and 4 do, I just want a clear idea of what isn't going to work so I can try to plan something out. Will I need to do 2. Bridge pickup split coil, and 4. Neck pickup split coil, to get the single coil sounds?

[sumgai]

orpheus,




Hi, and to The NutzHouse!


No, it's not a matter of the pickups being split, the Vol pots don't have an issue with that particular facet of operations. What's at stake here is whether or not we can a) connect the pups in series; b) keep both Vol pots in the circuit, doing their intended jobs; and c) accomplish all of this with only one switch.

Positions 1, 2, 3 & 5 are dead simple, we could do this easily with a Superswitch, and go get a beer. Position 4, the series mode (and it doesn't matter much if the pups are split or not), presents the need for two additional poles, and I'm not sure that this will be enough. It could come to pass that an Eyb Megaswitch will be needed, I think the model number would be a Megaswitch M (that's an 8P5T), but I could just as easily be wrong in that nomenclature.... but I know they have such a beast, finding the correct part number won't be difficult.

So, in terms of planning the switching logic (without any diagrams at this point), we need:

2 poles to turn the pups on or off;
2 poles to switch the pups to series in Pos. 4;
2 poles to split the pups where needed;
and most likely:
1 more pole to switch around a given Vol pot's "ground" connection in Pos. 4.

The question boils down to this: can any of these operations be combined? I'm pondering this as I type it all out, lemme go away and do something else, and see what percolates. And it can still happen that another member will beat me to it.

HTH





sumgai

[ashcatlt]

Simply put, the issue is that the V pots need to be wired differently depending on whether the two pickups are in series or parallel. I was hoping that JohnH might chime in because he’s got some schemes that switch S/P and reconfigure the pots at the same time.

In the meantime, here’s a slightly different idea. If this is really the only reason you want independent V pots, what if instead of volume, those pots just split the humbuckers when turned down? You could still do the auto-split on the switch, too, or you could just use standard 4-way Baja switching. The 4-way should fit your cavity without modification, and this would also give you the option of mixing and match one pickup split and the other not in both series and parallel combinations.

[mellotron]

Orpheus,

How did you get past security?

Sorry guys, I thought I had him under control.

Mind you, I should be careful. He probably knows my password!  

As you were.

[orpheusphd]

Well, if position 4 is the only problem, I will just need to think of something else to do for that position. I already have the superswitch, so I would prefer to use it over a 4 way. Otherwise I might need to go buy a Strat to put it to use!

Any suggestions for something different on that position, that would work with the electronics I have?

Thanks.

[ashcatlt]

Leave it. Just don’t try to use it for your single-pickup split sounds. If you want bridge or neck split alone, use position 2, and adjust volumes like you planned to. Bridge SC * Neck SC is a very useful sound, and I’d hate to see you lose it.

Edit - I suppose position 4 will be only subtly different from position 3 (because (2+2)/2 = 1+1), but with individual T pots, it gives you a whole range of “broadbucker” tones which will be like single-coil treble and HB low end.

[orpheusphd]

Now the fun part - is anybody able to provide guidance on how to wire this beast? I haven't succeeded in finding schematics for 2 HB/5 way/2v/2t.

[JohnH]

I think that in order to score a goal on this one, it may be advisable to move the goal posts.

I dont know of a scheme that does all as requested, but here are a few thoughts:

The logic for this HH design with 2V and 2T is not far different to an LP. On my LP, I use the tone controls, just simple pots no switch, to also do the coil splits. At 10 on these knobs, it single coil, at 9 or 9.5 its full humbucker and below that its humbucker with tone reduced. I like this so much that this scheme has been on my LP for over 10 years.

This is my LP:
guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/4571/humbuckers-lp-modular-wiring-design

This one is the nearest I have to your description, could be on an HH Strat or Tele, it has 1V and 2 T:
guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/5504/strat-hh-sounds-extra-controls

Im thinking a mash-up of some of these ideas might do it.

This idea of cutting coils using the tone knobs, I think might be better if it was suppressed at positions 1 and 5, so you can always flick to full humbuckers even if the its set for single sounds in 2 to 4.

If 2 vols are used, then note that in parallel mode, like most 2V guitars, you can mix the pickups with slight volume reductions, but if one is all off, it takes out both.

[orpheusphd]

I'm not into your idea of the tone pots as a coil split, because if I'm not mistaken, that would mean I won't have the ability to cut the treble while the coils are split, as reducing it would put it back to HB mode.

If the originally listed switch assignments will work, minus proper volume control for the split coils in series, I think I will stick with that, if someone can point me in the right direction. I'll continue trying to puzzle it out from the schematics I can find, but it's definitely not my specialty.

[newey]

We (well, . . .I . . ) can do a diagram for you but it may be a day or 2.

But we still have the issue of the volume pots. The problem isn't just in series. In series, as sumgai wrote:

a) The positive (hot) lead of the remaining pup will be connected to ground through the pot - turn it down, and both signals will be reduced or turned off completely;
b) That pup's Vol control will no longer work as expected/intended - it's now a rheostat* instead of a potentiometer... not a good thing at all when it comes to controlling a volume level.

As JohnH and I noted, in parallel:

If 2 vols are used, then note that in parallel mode, like most 2V guitars, you can mix the pickups with slight volume reductions, but if one is all off, it takes out both.

This is the same as in any LP with dual V and T controls. So, regardless of whether you are in series or parallel, turning down one volume control to "0" will cut the other pickup as well. That's fine, you can still have your switching as you please, but you will not be able to go to one pickup in split-coil mode by turning down the other volume to 0. Even when the coils aren't split, you can't use the volume controls to turn one HB all the way off when both are on (and if it's wired '50s style, it never goes all the way off anyway).

If you want to be able to have just the neck (or conversely, the bridge) split by itself, you'll need to add a switch to cut the coils (which could be a P/P pot so no need to drill a hole). You could still have the coil splits as desired on your 5-way switch for ease of access if that's what you want.

I just want to be clear on what your end product will be here. As ashcatlt said, you can "just leave it", you can still use the tones to blend things a bit, but recognize going in what the limitations will be.

[orpheusphd]

Well, my original plan had been to stick with a 3 way switch anyway, my dad suggested a 5 way so I could keep some single coil tones available. If I lose some functionality in those positions, that's fine.

I would greatly appreciate if you could draw up a schematic. I'm staring back and forth from a couple schematics, and a doodle in MS Paint trying to figure out what I'm doing. It probably won't end well.

[mellotron]

Nov 14, 2020 18:54:56 GMT -5 orpheusphd said:

... my dad suggested a 5 way so I could keep some single coil tones available. 

He's been throwing me under the bus since he was three...

[newey]

orpheusphd said:
... my dad suggested a 5 way so I could keep some single coil tones available.

He's been throwing me under the bus since he was three...

What, now I gotta do family therapy and a diagram to boot?

[orpheusphd]

This is what I have so far. I know, in theory, what pickups in series are, but I don't know how to wire them. And I don't know if anything that I have is actually correct. I used this schematic as a reference, but it is only for 1V1T.

The pickups (Seymour Duncans) have a black, red, white, green, and bare wire. I'm assuming the bare would be the one that goes to ground, dark grey in my schematic. The light grey is the white.

Please excuse the horrible Paint job.

[newey]

Orpheusphd-

You're right, you don't have the series setting correct. Also, your coil split appears to be in only one position (whether it's position 2 or 4, I can't tell because you haven't numbered the switch lugs).

First off, number your lugs so we can talk intelligently about the diagram. Whether you number 1-2-3-4-5 or 5-4-3-2-1 doesn't matter, except with respect to the physical positioning of the actual swi5tch in your guitar (the convention is that the bridge position is #1, neck is #5. As you show it, #1 (the bridge setting) is to the right, in which case the numbering would be, from left to right, 5-4-3-2-1. But we've got to change your wiring anyway.

Second, while the way you show the V and T controls will work OK, the preferred way to wire individual V and T controls is between the pickups and the switch, just like on any LP/SG type guitar. The pickup bleck wire goes to the V pot, tone control is wired off the volume as you show it, wiper (center) lug of the V pots goes to the switch.

Third, as you show it, the "series junctions" (the white/red pairs) are both grounded, meaning (with SD pickups) you will be selecting the slug (North) coil for both pickups, which will not be hum-cancelling. Ideally, you would want one screw coil paired with the other slug coil for hum-cancellation (this is true even with rail-type HBs or other types that don't have a screw/slug pair).

I think this is right, but let's get it double-checked before you start wiring. Note that I have omitted the V and T pots, wire those as suggested above:

[newey]

OOPS- correction. I left out a wire on the neck Black pole:

[Yogi B]

Nov 15, 2020 9:36:37 GMT -5 newey said:

I think this is right, but let's get it double-checked before you start wiring. Note that I have omitted the V and T pots, wire those as suggested above

Firstly it looks as though you've swapped the white/red wires: with SD pickups black & white connect to the north coil, red & green to the south coil.

Secondly wiring the volume/tone pots as described earlier:

The pickup black wire goes to the V pot, tone control is wired off the volume as you show it, wiper (center) lug of the V pots goes to the switch.

(presumably with that wire from the wiper replacing the original in place of the black wire) will only work as expected when the pickups are not split.

As the black wire of the bridge is connected to the north coil, which is not connected/selected when split, the bridge controls will not be active in the split positions, more specifically:

• in position 2, the neck volume & tone are connected to the neck north coil, all of which is in parallel with the bridge south coil -- the bridge controls are disconnected;
• in position 4, neck north and bridge south are in series, but here the neck controls are wired like master V/T and will affect both -- again the bridge controls are disconnected.

---

I'll have to think further on this, but at the moment I don't think that what we're after is possible with less than five poles on the selector switch. It is at the very least possible if in one of either position 1 or 5 we have the deselected pickup hanging from hot... not sure if we can do better than that though.

[orpheusphd]

Sorry, yes position 1 was the far right. I know the series wiring for position 4 was wrong, because I didn't know what to do so I did nothing . Thanks for the diagram!

[orpheusphd]

I need the visual reference, or I know I'll screw up with the pots. Should it be like this? Or would the greens just go straight off to ground, without touching the back of the volume pots?

[ashcatlt]

The connection to the back of the pots is just for shielding. They should be grounded as best practice, but the signal doesn’t necessarily have to find ground that way. I personally never solder anything to the back of a pot, and definitely wouldn’t rely on that for an actual signal ground.

IDK why everybody keeps saying you CAN’T turn one pickup all the way down. You certainly could if you wired the V pots “backwards” by connecting the pickup to the wiper and the output to the switch to the other lug. It’ll be a little weird in series mode, but we said you’re not really wanting to do that anyway.

I haven’t really traced out your switching here, but it looks strange and unnecessarily complicated. If it was me, I’d wire it like Baja switching but double up the parallel position. That only takes two poles. Then use the other poles to short one coil upwards and the other downwards in positions 2 and 4. Doing this will require that one of the green wires NOT go to ground permanently, and will mean that both the Vs and Ts can be wired across the pickup - from green to black. This then allows the T pots to give you those broadbucker tones I was talking about, and is the closest you’ll get to control independence.

[Yogi B]

Nov 15, 2020 12:09:57 GMT -5 ashcatlt said:

IDK why everybody keeps saying you CAN’T turn one pickup all the way down. You certainly could if you wired the V pots “backwards” by connecting the pickup to the wiper and the output to the switch to the other lug. It’ll be a little weird in series mode, but we said you’re not really wanting to do that anyway.

Because wiring the pots backwards only really solves that one specific problem -- as noted independent volumes need special treatment in series mode, they're worse at being an actual volume control (as in positions 1 & 5, or any of the other positions with one of the two zeroed), and they don't improve the sharp drop-off when attempting parallel blending as that's more a result of the pots' taper.

Furthermore the specific ability to zero-out one of the pickups via the volume controls is redundant: in position 3, zeroing out one pickup is equivalent to either position 1 or 5; and the individual selections of position 2 (split-coils in parallel) would be made redundant by a correctly functioning position 4 (split-coils in series).

---

Nov 15, 2020 10:25:59 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

It is at the very least possible if in one of either position 1 or 5 we have the deselected pickup hanging from hot... not sure if we can do better than that though.

Following is a schematic of what I'm thinking. Note that the entirety of the neck pickup & controls are hanging from hot in position 1, plus I've omitted treble bleeds on the volumes for simplicity though I'd advise for their inclusion:

I'll work on converting this to a wiring diagram if this gets the green light.

[ashcatlt]

Nov 15, 2020 13:08:12 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

Note that the entirety of the neck pickup & controls are hanging from hot in position 1.

Pretty sure you can connect the top of the top coil (before the V pot) to position 1 of the bottom coil’s bottom pole on the switch (upper right) and then it’ll be shorted, which is better and a more positive off for that pickup.

Edit - though actually you’ll need to connect position 1 of the top left pole to the top of the bottom coil. Jumper to position 3/5 should do it.

[JohnH]

Think Yogi has shown us the only way to do this with these parts. The neck hanging from hot position 4 with neck turned fully down to get bridge single, which may have a very small amount of extra buzz, likely negligible. But, look forward to position 4 (series) being very interesting! the tones and volumes are both fully independent in that setting and you can add a bit of weight from one coil to combine with the other.

[mellotron]

Thank you all, and particularly newey and Yogi at this point for the diagram and schematic. Mellotron and Son are working through this on our end, comparing notes and learning as we go. This is great.


I am more than a little rusty at this so, ignoring pots and switches, put this together last night. Have I got this right, for the basic pickup signal flow as text?

Switch position 1 - bridge humbucker



    black north > white north > red south > green south



Switch position 2 - bridge and neck split, in parallel, hum cancelling



  Outer coils:

    neck black north > neck white north

   AND

    bridge red south > bridge green south

OR

  Inner coils:

    neck red south > neck green south

   AND

    bridge black north > bridge white north



Switch position 3 - bridge and neck humbuckers, in parallel



    bridge black north > bridge white north > bridge red south > bridge green south

   AND

    neck black north > neck white north > neck red south > neck green south



Switch position 4 - bridge and neck split, in series, hum cancelling



  Outer coils:

    neck black north > neck white north > bridge red south > bridge green south

   OR

  Inner coils:

    neck red south > neck green south > bridge black north > bridge white north


Switch position 5 - neck humbucker



    neck black north > neck white north > neck red south > neck green south

[Yogi B]

Nov 15, 2020 14:16:55 GMT -5 ashcatlt said:

Pretty sure you can connect the top of the top coil (before the V pot) to position 1 of the bottom coil’s bottom pole on the switch (upper right) and then it’ll be shorted, which is better and a more positive off for that pickup.

Edit - though actually you’ll need to connect position 1 of the top left pole to the top of the bottom coil. Jumper to position 3/5 should do it.

I did think about shorting the neck pickup, but I couldn't decide whether it would be better to short it as a series humbucker (as per your method), or short each coil separately (i.e. terminal 1 of the top-left pole to neck south +ve and terminal 1 of the top right pole to neck north +ve).

I'm still not sure which alternative is best, although doing neither as (currently) per my schematic was neater to draw and will be a mite less soldering.

Nov 15, 2020 14:19:48 GMT -5 JohnH said:

Think Yogi has shown us the only way to do this with these parts.

Shall I mark this one as vetted then?

Nov 15, 2020 15:26:38 GMT -5 mellotron said:

I am more than a little rusty at this so, ignoring pots and switches, put this together last night. Have I got this right, for the basic pickup signal flow as text?

Yes, but note that the series ordering ('stacking') of the coils is irrelevant. For example looking at your listing for the final position (neck humbucker), you list:

neck black north > neck white north > neck red south > neck green south,

whereas as per my schematic, in the same position, the ordering would be:

neck red south > neck green south > neck black north > neck white north,

yet these are exactly equivalent.

I was also going to pull you up on the fact that usually with a pair of full-size (PAF-style) humbuckers the two inner coils are the same polarity as each other, and thus are the two outer coils, not one of each as per your listing -- however upon looking up images of the SD Hot Rails Tele pickups I see that what you wrote is true.

Therefore, as it stands my schematic would give the inner coils. Alternatively the outer coils could be selected by swapping the north/south coils of each pickup, but with the Hot Rails' coils being in such close proximity the difference between inner/outer will be minimal.

---

There's still a few unanswered questions, the first relating to the applicability of including treble bleeds on the volumes (and choosing the most appropriate values thereof), the rest just so that any wiring diagram I draw is as accurate and as easy to follow as possible:

• What are the resistance(s) and taper(s) of the stacked pots?
• Somewhat dependent on that answer, is the plan to have one of the stacked pots for both volumes & the other for both tones or one for both neck controls & the other for the bridge?
• What style of superswitch do you have, and are there any cavity restrictions that necessitate that you install it in a particular orientation? (i.e. whether the terminals must face the floor or the sky)
• Expanding on the previous, is the switch in the traditional Tele location (at the end of the control plate closest to the neck) or somewhere else?
• You, or rather orpheusphd, isn't left-handed, correct?
• Is there anything that I've forgotten?

[mellotron]

Nov 15, 2020 17:45:59 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

• What are the resistance(s) and taper(s) of the stacked pots?
• Somewhat dependent on that answer, is the plan to have one of the stacked pots for both volumes & the other for both tones or one for both neck controls & the other for the bridge?
• What style of superswitch do you have, and are there any cavity restrictions that necessitate that you install it in a particular orientation? (i.e. whether the terminals must face the floor or the sky)
• Expanding on the previous, is the switch in the traditional Tele location (at the end of the control plate closest to the neck) or somewhere else?
• You, or rather orpheusphd , isn't left-handed, correct?
• Is there anything that I've forgotten?

Answering the couple that I know, or he can correct if I am wrong:

He talked about stacked bridge volume and tone, and stacked neck volume and tone.

I forget the actual model of his Tele, but it is NOT the classic we all think of. Deluxe, Custom, ? He will chime in. (We are about 300 kilometers apart.)

He is right-handed. (I hope that one does not change...)