Momentary/toggle series and momentary/reverse kill

[cmscss]

Sorry to be posting a new thread but after months of 'having a go' I can't get this working sorry.

1. Is this possible?
- 3-Way pickup selector delivers normal Tele selections (neck/neck+bridge in parallel/bridge)
- Treble bleed on Volume
- Kill momentary with toggle to reverse the function (this is working as per wiring diagram)
- Series momentary in any pickup selection (couldn't get working without ruining normal pickup selection)
- Series toggle from any pickup selection (couldn't get working along with the momentary)

2. $50USD Wiring Bounty
- If this wiring is possible, could someone give me a wiring diagram?
- Schematics make sense to me but wiring diagrams totally don't, so I'm after a wiring diagram

I'm happy to donate to the site again or simply PayPal someone $50USD for a wiring diagram that works. If this is distasteful, please let me know as that's not my intent - I just want to play guitar!

I've soldered/desoldered this a good 15 times in the past couple of weeks, I've done my best to translate parts from other wiring diagrams with varying degrees of success and with the help of other members, we've deciphered and numbered the terminals for the components I have.

Any help would be much appreciated.

[syddd]

The tricky part I see is getting the momentary series switching working with the series switching. 

Otherwise the momentary kill Switch + kill switch toggle is just two SPDT switches with one momentary in between your volume pot (second lug) and your jack tip. (1x on-on, 1x on-(on)). It looks to me that however you wire your pickups in your diagram, because your kill switches arent between the jack and the volume pot, either your volume pot will do nothing, or your kill switches will do nothing.

[newey]

syddd- cmcss said that part was working OK, he had a diagram in his other thread showing that wiring, although his current template does not. The toggle switch simply selects between the NO and NC settings of the momentary switch.

cmscss:

Here's a diagram of the wiring for the series/parallel switch. The trouble with posting a "pickguard template" showing component locations is that the wire runs become dictated by the positions of the components. Ordinarily, we draw a wiring diagram so as to position the components for clarity in the wiring (i.e., minimzing the "spaghetti"). So, this has a good deal of wire spaghetti, since I used your template. Because of that, I did not show the wiring to the series momentary switch- the whole thing becomes illegible, tooo many wires crossing over each other.

But you can use the numbering of the lugs to duplicate the DPDT series/parallel switch onto the momentary switch. I can draw that up as a separate module if you need me to do so, but it just corresponds to the DPDT terminals. Also note that I erased the lettering on the DPDT switch that you had of "NC" and "NO". This was just confusing, as DPDT switches don't have "open" or "closed" settings, only momentary switches do.




EDIT: Now that I look a bit closer at this, adding the series momentary switch presents some issues. I think I can see how to add it such that, when the series/parallel switch is set to "parallel", the momentary switch will give you momentary series. But I can't quite figure how to have it work regardless of the series/parallel switch setting.

Also, no need for the $50, but you can always buy us some add-free page views through ProBoards.

[reTrEaD]

Dec 29, 2020 22:51:36 GMT -5 cmscss said:

- Series momentary in any pickup selection (couldn't get working without ruining normal pickup selection)
- Series toggle from any pickup selection (couldn't get working along with the momentary)

Hey cmscss

This IS possible if you use a DPDT momentary (you indicate you have those in your diagram), and a 4PDT toggle.

The 4PDT toggle would exchange the normally closed throws and the normally open throws on the momentary. Much the same as the way a phase switch exchanges (+) and (-) leads on a pickup.

Of course that means when you flip the toggle to engage series mode, pressing your momentary will change to whatever is selected by the 3-way.

Dec 29, 2020 22:51:36 GMT -5 cmscss said:

2. $50USD Wiring Bounty
- If this wiring is possible, could someone give me a wiring diagram?
- Schematics make sense to me but wiring diagrams totally don't, so I'm after a wiring diagram

I'm happy to donate to the site again or simply PayPal someone $50USD for a wiring diagram that works. If this is distasteful, please let me know as that's not my intent - I just want to play guitar!

Yeah, let's not go there. I think it would set the wrong precedent such that others might feel obligated to offer payment to get the best possible help.

We should always do the best we can to help others and often it becomes a community project where one person adds an idea that others build upon.

If you feel moved to show your gratitude upon completion, you can buy some ad-free blocks for the forum. But no one should ever feel obligated to do that.

Would you be so kind as to edit the thread title and remove the bounty? Suggested title:

Momentary/toggle series and momentary/reverse kill ?

[cmscss]

Thanks for the replies, very much appreciated!

Let me get a 4PDT toggle get back to you after digesting the replies.

Cheers

[cmscss]

Dec 30, 2020 10:30:08 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

Hey cmscss

This IS possible if you use a DPDT momentary (you indicate you have those in your diagram), and a 4PDT toggle.

The 4PDT toggle would exchange the normally closed throws and the normally open throws on the momentary. Much the same as the way a phase switch exchanges (+) and (-) leads on a pickup.

I have a 4PDT switch and have added the poles to the wiring diagram, and tried to make the layout easier for wiring - although, because I don't know where the wires go, I just guessed at a good layout.

Here's the switch I have: www.jaycar.co.nz/4pdt-mini-toggle-switch/p/ST0506
And here's the data sheet: www.jaycar.co.nz/medias/sys_master/images/images/9423804268574/ST0506-dataSheetMain.pdf

Dec 30, 2020 10:30:08 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

Of course that means when you flip the toggle to engage series mode, pressing your momentary will change to whatever is selected by the 3-way.

Perfect.

Dec 30, 2020 10:30:08 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

Yeah, let's not go there. I think it would set the wrong precedent such that others might feel obligated to offer payment to get the best possible help.

We should always do the best we can to help others and often it becomes a community project where one person adds an idea that others build upon.

If you feel moved to show your gratitude upon completion, you can buy some ad-free blocks for the forum. But no one should ever feel obligated to do that.

Would you be so kind as to edit the thread title and remove the bounty? Suggested title:

Momentary/toggle series and momentary/reverse kill ?

Thank you, have purchased 250,000 ad-free page views and updated the title. Thanks again.

Here's the updated wiring diagram, any help with the rest would be much appreciated.

[cmscss]

OK, so have had a go at wiring this up based on the post from newey but have added the 4PDT. If this is unhelpful because the 4PDT toggle changes everything then let me know.

Any help would be much appreciated.

[newey]

OK, I'll have to have a look, I think I see where RT was suggesting to go with this. Just so I'm clear on how this is going to work:

If 4P S/P toggle is set to "series", pushing the momentary S/P puts both pickups in parallel. But because the S/P toggle already overrrides the 3-way switch, pushing the momentary when in series will only give both pickups in parallel, even if 3-way is set to one pickup or the other.

If S/P toggle is set to parallel (which then allows for the 3-way switch to control pickup selection), pushing the momentary S/P button put both pickups in series, regardless of the 3-way selection.

If that is the intended operation, I think I see where RT was headed. If, OTOH, we want the S/P momentary button to revert in parallel to the 3-way switch setting, I'm not visualizing how that gets done- it may be possible, have to have a closer look.

[reTrEaD]

Dec 31, 2020 7:38:21 GMT -5 newey said:

OK, I'll have to have a look, I think I see where RT was suggesting to go with this. Just so I'm clear on how this is going to work:

Hey newey, I won't have time to do a full wiring diagram so if you (or someone else) would take the reins, that would be excellent.

I did make a quick drawing to show how the momentary and toggle are nested together.

It's convenient to think of the momentary as being the heart of the S/P switch and the toggle as 'flipping' the action to P/S. Also because of the way the lugs are laid out on the momentary, you need to keep track of which of the throws are NO and which are NC.

[cmscss]

Thanks guys, comments below...

Dec 31, 2020 7:38:21 GMT -5 newey said:

If 4P S/P toggle is set to "series", pushing the momentary S/P puts both pickups in parallel. But because the S/P toggle already overrrides the 3-way switch, pushing the momentary when in series will only give both pickups in parallel, even if 3-way is set to one pickup or the other.

Yes, happy with this.

Dec 31, 2020 7:38:21 GMT -5 newey said:

If S/P toggle is set to parallel (which then allows for the 3-way switch to control pickup selection), pushing the momentary S/P button put both pickups in series, regardless of the 3-way selection.

Perfect.

Dec 31, 2020 7:38:21 GMT -5 newey said:

If that is the intended operation, I think I see where RT was headed. If, OTOH, we want the S/P momentary button to revert in parallel to the 3-way switch setting, I'm not visualizing how that gets done- it may be possible, have to have a closer look.

If possible, this would be ideal. I intend to use the S/P toggle as a lead switch so the S/P momentary doing something to alter the sound while the toggle is down would be nice but I'm not too fussed as to what it does exactly - just that it alters the sound when pushed. I know that sounds weird!


reTrEaD Thanks for this. I wasn't sure where the wires coming into the S/P momentary were coming from so have provided a cleaner version of the wiring diagram and will await guidance from newey.

Thanks again guys, very much appreciated.

[cmscss]

reTrEaD & newey I've sat down to try and understand how this all fits together but I don't understand it so don't want to confuse the thread with messy diagrams.

Any help would be much appreciated.

[reTrEaD]

Hey cmscss,

I've been stretched thin due to added responsibilities with my friend in hospital, but I hope to have some time to work on this project this week. If you don't hear from me by hump day, feel free to rattle my cage.

[cmscss]

reTrEaD Sorry to hear that, all the best to you and your friend. Much appreciated.

[newey]

I, too, have been busy with real life. It looks like RT has a better handle on this than I do, I'll let him take the lead for now.

[reTrEaD]

cmscss, sorry for the wait.

I've done diagrams that were easier to follow but this one isn't horrible. Be sure to wait for one of the other guys to vet this just in case I made an error.

Also, take note of the fact the Series Momentary is orientated upside down compared to the Kill Momentary. I did this so the wires would have fewer crossings.

[newey]

Thanks for taking the lead on this, RT. Your diagram looks good to me.

[cmscss]

reTrEaD just giving this thread a bump, see how you go and thanks again for your time, very much appreciated.

[cmscss]

reTrEaD Opps, just saw your updated post - thank you!

[cmscss]

Jan 8, 2021 18:13:42 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

cmscss, sorry for the wait.
I've done diagrams that were easier to follow but this one isn't horrible.

Thank you, very much appreciated!

Jan 8, 2021 18:13:42 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

Be sure to wait for one of the other guys to vet this just in case I made an error.

All good, will wire up and report back, probably the easiest way to see if there's an issue.

Jan 8, 2021 18:13:42 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

Also, take note of the fact the Series Momentary is orientated upside down compared to the Kill Momentary. I did this so the wires would have fewer crossings.

Gotcha, that makes sense.

Cheers

[Jaga]

The idea to have a switch to be able to reverse killswitch is so cool! I really like it. However, I'm curious what could be the musical application of the reversed killswitch. cmscss you definitely know why you need it Probably you could share some ideas or link some examples?

[cmscss]

Sorry for the delay Jaga. I actually have a kill foot switch that works this way - it's off unless you hit the switch.


This allows for more delay-like sounds because you don't hear the pick attack or string ring - you can tap out cooler sounding rhythms. It also allows you to have a batsh!t crazy sound (like constant feedback) which is only heard when you hit the switch.

Hope that makes sense - IMHO it's a cooler effect than a traditional kill switch (which still has its place).

Cheers