|
|
Post by geo on Sept 6, 2021 22:50:55 GMT -5
I found the regular Jaguar switching to be a little wasteful, so I did a little planning with some Fender S-1 switches to make the most of it. Please check for errors and let me know if there are any parts of the design you like or would improve.  See updated wiring. A little math... 4 pickup selections per coil, 2 modes for combining the two coils, phase swap when combining coils doubles that again, that's 72 different pickup combinations. (Although it'll feel more like 42, since splitting the coil won't sound very different picking the top vs the bottom pickup.) |
|
|
|
Post by newey on Sept 7, 2021 5:24:05 GMT -5
Beautifully drawn diagram, geo. But I am unclear on what type of switches you are depicting for the S1,S2,S3 and S5 switches. The Jag uses slide switches, and your drawing seems to suggest slide switches. But slide switches don't have common lugs, so I'm lost trying to sort your switching. Also, if slide switches are being used, have you sourced 5-position slide switches and ascertained that they will fit into the Jag control plate? Seems to me they would be longer than the regular Jag switches.
|
|
|
|
Post by geo on Sept 7, 2021 7:02:38 GMT -5
I had thought slide switches had common poles. I originally was looking at SS44D04G4's, which certainly have common poles, but wasn't sure they'd fit the footprint so I re-did it for G-141S-3011's, which I can't find a definitive answer for. There's no pin-out on the datasheet. Same issue for the Fender 3-position slide switch. The diagram was drawn up with G-141S-3011 in mind, but now you've got me worried. Edit: It looks like the G-141S-3011 does not, indeed, have common terminals. Any way to make this work? switches-connectors-custom.cwind.com/Asset/SLIDE_SWITCH_SCHEMATIC.PDF |
|
|
|
Post by newey on Sept 7, 2021 8:20:16 GMT -5
It looks like the G-141S-3011 does not, indeed, have common terminals. Any way to make this work? Good question, we'll have to take a look at it. a two-pole, 4 throw slide switch will have 5 lugs on each pole, and the two poles parallel each other as far as the internal connections. In position 1, lugs 1 and 2 are connected on each pole, in position 2, lugs 2 and 3 are connected, in position 3, lugs 3 and 4, and in position 4, lugs 4 and 5. You should be able to do series/parallel and coil cuts, but we'll have to work that out. |
|
|
|
Post by geo on Sept 7, 2021 8:22:13 GMT -5
I don't think it's enough poles to pull off every combination anymore; not without the common terminals. I can do top/bottom/(parallel or series) with a DP3T, but I can't get the last combination off with a DP4T.
Calling the top pickup 1 and the bottom pickup 2,
DP3T parallel:
S2-S1-S2-S2
N1-N2-N2-N1
DP3T series:
N2-S1-S2-S2
S1-N2-N2-N1
Edit: Will these do the trick? Took me a minute to get the hang of this thinking.
DP4T 1-2-parallel-series:
S1-S2-S2-S1-N2
N2-N2-N1-N2-S1
DP4T 1-parallel-series-2
S1-S2-S1-N2-N1
XX-N2-N1-XX-XX
|
|
|
|
Post by geo on Sept 7, 2021 11:14:22 GMT -5
Looks like someone measured the Jaguar switches' travel at 12mm. The G-141 I want to put in has 17.5mm travel, so I'll have to file off about a quarter centimeter on either side for each switch. The switch body is 24.84mm, with #3 US machine screws set 30.15mm apart, center-to-center. The user measuring the other screws put them about 28mm apart, which might be a perfect fit if the user failed to measure center-to-center. If not, the screw holes of the switch might need to be widened and the switch fastened with a washer and nut. Either way, it looks like this should be feasible with minimal modifications to the Jaguar control plates. I'm just worried about how smooth the finish will be after that filing. Jag plates have a nice chrome finish with rounded edges, and I can't replicate that with a file; I'll either get a sharp edge or I can round it with a rough finish. |
|
|
|
Post by newey on Sept 7, 2021 12:03:43 GMT -5
Not following your nomenclature for the switching in post #4 above. Here's what I came up with for the 4-position. However, the N coil is hanging from hot at position 4. Not a deal breaker, but we'd like to avoid it if possible. It may be avoidable if the ordering of the positions is not a critical issue for you. As for the rest of the switching, still have to look at that.  As for the plate, would think center-to-center would be the way it would be measured. I think your best bet would be to create a custom plate. This could be done from a piece of pickguard material. If you want it to be chrome metal, that would be more work in machining it. But you could probably get a local chrome plater (guys who do motorcycle parts are a starting point) to drop a small piece in the basket while he's plating something else, he might not even charge you for it. |
|
|
|
Post by geo on Sept 7, 2021 13:44:12 GMT -5
Sorry, the format for my switching earlier was
Top pickup:
North - N1
South - S1
Bot pickup:
North - N2
South - S2
Pole 1: 1-2-3-4-5
Pole 2: 6-7-8-9-10
(And assuming that N1 and S2 are always connected to the positive and ground signal chain.)
By my way of writing it, the diagram you provided is:
S2-S1-S1-P9-N1
N1-N1-N2-P4-N2
|
|
|
|
Post by geo on Sept 7, 2021 13:48:19 GMT -5
As for the plate, would think center-to-center would be the way it would be measured. I think your best bet would be to create a custom plate. This could be done from a piece of pickguard material. If you want it to be chrome metal, that would be more work in machining it. But you could probably get a local chrome plater (guys who do motorcycle parts are a starting point) to drop a small piece in the basket while he's plating something else, he might not even charge you for it. I would expect so from an artisan, but this individual seemed to be winging it. If I bought a plate and modified it with a file, would re-chroming it heal the damaged part? Or would I somehow have to strip all the chrome before it could be chromed again? Poked around a local makerspace to see if someone could make the plates for me, but it'd be a lot easier to do it myself with a file. |
|
|
|
Post by Yogi B on Sept 7, 2021 15:24:29 GMT -5
Please check for errors and let me know if there are any parts of the design you like or would improve. I haven't checked the switching yet, however one thing you might like to change is the ordering of the bass & tone controls: as you have it now is similar to wiring of "strangle" cap in the original Jaguar wiring but that means that the tone control also affects the cutoff frequency of the bass control. So if the bass is rolled of somewhat, then rolling the tone down will cause the bass control to cut into the lower mids (in addition to its regular function). If your intention is to mimic that aspect of the original Jaguar wiring then you're set, if not then you'd need to place the bass control between the tone & volume controls. This does however mean that there'd only be the 500k ohms of the volume pot loading the bass cut rather than 250k of the tone (at 10) and volume pots in parallel, therefore I'd offer my usual recommendation of a no-load tone pot paired with a 250k volume pot. Also if I were doing this I'd probably break from tradition and have the bridge pickup attached to the 'rhythm' circuit. I'd more likely want to quickly switch into a pre-set bridge-only sound, than into a neck-only sound — but each to their own. The switch body is 24.84mm, with #3 US machine screws set 30.15mm apart, center-to-center. The user measuring the other screws put them about 28mm apart, which might be a perfect fit if the user failed to measure center-to-center. If not, the screw holes of the switch might need to be widened and the switch fastened with a washer and nut. I believe the switches fender uses are from Switchcraft's 46200 series, and therefore measure 1.125in (28.575mm) centre-to-centre between the mounting holes. In my parts drawer I have an equivalent import switch which measures exactly 28mm centre-to-centre — I do also have a control plate but that, at the moment, I can not find. Here's what I came up with for the 4-position. However, the N coil is hanging from hot at position 4. Not a deal breaker, but we'd like to avoid it if possible. It may be avoidable if the ordering of the positions is not a critical issue for you. If we didn't have a coil hanging from hot, then for the parallel position we'd need three connections to happen: connecting both 'positive' leads to hot and connecting the 'negative' lead (whichever one isn't already) to ground. |
|
|
|
Post by newey on Sept 7, 2021 15:37:55 GMT -5
If I bought a plate and modified it with a file, would re-chroming it heal the damaged part? Just as with painting something, surface prep is everything. Chrome plating won't cover much in the way of surface defects. If there are file marks visible on the piece, there will be file marks after the chrome plating. Plus, if the screw holes have to be redrilled (as I suspect), then you'd have to fill the holes (i.e., by welding) and then grinding down the repaired holes until smooth.. That's why I'm thinking easier to make a new plate- but understand that is also going to be a good deal of work if metalwork is not something you're familiar/comfortable doing. If it were me and I wanted a metal plate with less work, I'd find a piece of aluminum to use as it's much easier to work than steel. Then polish/buff the crap out of it until it shines like chrome. It won't look exactly like chrome, but from 10 feet away I bet no one is going to be able to tell. All of the things you are encountering are why people don't use slide swithces for modifications very often, too hard to cut slots versus just drilling a round hole for a pot or a toggle. You might consider other ways of achieving your goals, using the stock-sized slide switches and perhaps adding other switching to do the coil-splitting and/or the inter-pickup series/parallel. For example, just thinking out loud here, you could use 3-way slide switches (which will fit, right?) for each pickup to give "Off", parallel HB, and series HB. The slide switch currently designated as a pickup selector would then put both pickups in series when both of the pickup slide switches were set to "on" (in either series or parallel). A separate switch (toggle, presumably) would then handle coil cuts for both pickups. This wouldn't allow for getting both N and S coils from each pickup, but you could split to opposite coils for hum-cancellation when both pickups are combined (the difference in sound between selecting N versus S coils is likely to be minimal, and is usually done only for hum-cancelling in conjunction with your phase switch). |
|
|
|
Post by geo on Sept 7, 2021 15:38:16 GMT -5
Re: Tone controls
I definitely see myself getting more use out of the neck than the bridge as a quick-switch rhythm section. And as a bonus, I put 250k pots on the rhythm volume+tone, so if you split the coil you can get some good tone out of that.
Re: Switches
The G-141S-3011's I spec'd for this are 30.15mm center-to-center, so that's not a fit. It sounds like I'm going to have to punch or tap a bigger hole and fasten them with a washer and nut, unless the control plate has some clearance around that screw.
Re: Hanging coil
The hanging coil is a crappy antenna, but if anything it might provide a little noise cancellation given the direction of the winding, no? For my circuit, I've got a hanging coil on every pickup at all times. (One south, one north for each humbucker.) It's the only way to do this with DP4T switches instead of 4P4Ts.
|
|
|
|
Post by geo on Sept 7, 2021 15:43:21 GMT -5
For example, just thinking out loud here, you could use 3-way slide switches (which will fit, right?) for each pickup to give "Off", parallel HB, and series HB. The slide switch currently designated as a pickup selector would then put both pickups in series when both of the pickup slide switches were set to "on" (in either series or parallel). A separate switch (toggle, presumably) would then handle coil cuts for both pickups. This wouldn't allow for getting both N and S coils from each pickup, but you could split to opposite coils for hum-cancellation when both pickups are combined (the difference in sound between selecting N versus S coils is likely to be minimal, and is usually done only for hum-cancelling in conjunction with your phase switch). I thought the Mustang slide switch would fit, but it looks like it's even larger than the G-141S-3011 switch I spec'd for this. The diagram offers a suggested modification for a 3-way switch, which is to omit one of the single coil modes for each of the humbuckers and to give up the series selection between humbuckers. So you'd have single coil/parallel/humbucker for each pickup and top/bottom/parallel between the two of them. (I suggested keeping the top-most and bottom-most single coils, but you could also keep the inner two coils and have hum cancellation when combining them in parallel.) |
|
|
|
Post by newey on Sept 7, 2021 15:48:55 GMT -5
The hanging coil is a crappy antenna, but if anything it might provide a little noise cancellation given the direction of the winding, no? No, not with one end disconnected, it's just an antenna at that point. As an aside, we've never had anyone demonstrate actual real-world noise issues from a coil hanging from hot. In theory, it could be noisier (the antenna thing makes sense, IOW), but does it actually make a real-world difference? The problem is we can't test for every possible noise environment one might encounter. If we tell someone "don't worry, it's no big deal", and the person then has to go play in some dodgy-wired tavern with fluourescent lamps with ancient ballasts, who can say his hanging coil won't hum like crazy? |
|
|
|
Post by geo on Sept 7, 2021 16:02:48 GMT -5
It's a fair warning, but I think I'll take my chances for the time being. A hanging coil from hot and a hanging coil from ground are essentially the same (since it's the current/voltage that matters!), and 4P4T switches are few and far between. (Although I'm curious to unfold and tear down a few switches two see if we can start making our own now that there's 3D printers and such in the world.) If my axe starts picking up AM radio, we'll see about hacking on another pole to that switch.
|
|
|
|
Post by Yogi B on Sept 7, 2021 19:22:11 GMT -5
Re: Switches The G-141S-3011's I spec'd for this are 30.15mm center-to-center, so that's not a fit. It sounds like I'm going to have to punch or tap a bigger hole and fasten them with a washer and nut, unless the control plate has some clearance around that screw. Found my plate. The holes are imperial spaced at 28.6mm centre-to-centre but they're about 4.4mm in diameter (and not countersunk). Edge-to-edge they measure 33.05mm, therefore if you're using non-countersunk screws they might just fit. Looking around online it seems a bit haphazard as to whether the plates have countersunk switch mounting holes or not, but it looks to me that the hole itself is the same size in either case. |
|
|
|
Post by geo on Sept 7, 2021 19:35:06 GMT -5
I've got a line on a local metal shop that might be able to do the work if not. Worst comes to worst, I do it with aluminum at a local makerspace, like newey said.
Mostly just worried I missed something in the wiring. It's easy enough to convert those common terminals to the regular slide switch (now that I got the hang of those!); I'm mostly worried I didn't separate the circuits properly. If it all works as expected in this diagram, I can draw up a new one that works for the slide switches.
|
|
|
|
Post by Yogi B on Sept 8, 2021 0:27:57 GMT -5
Mostly just worried I missed something in the wiring. It's easy enough to convert those common terminals to the regular slide switch (now that I got the hang of those!); I'm mostly worried I didn't separate the circuits properly. If it all works as expected in this diagram, I can draw up a new one that works for the slide switches. I've had a look at your diagram, the first thing is that I have to agree with newey — your labelling of the coil leads as N or S (presumably meaning north or south) doesn't seem logical. So, in order to make them make sense to me, I'm interpreting the "N"s as 'positive' and "S"s as 'negative'. I think the wiring mostly checks out okay, except when the phase switch is set to out-of-phase. This mainly this begs the question: why have the phase switch connected to the more complex neck pickup wiring? You would get effectively the same result by instead connecting it to the bridge pickup and it'd only require two poles of the 4PDT phase switch.
Alternatively, the main argument as to why you might want the phase switch on the neck pickup is if you wanted to automatically swap the selected neck coil split for the sake of hum-cancelling with an also split bridge pickup. Swapping the coil split for the neck pickup is usually preferable, because the positioning means that it's less of a tonal change between the two coils when compared with those of the bridge. I don't know if you'd be interested in the above, but if you are just be aware that I'm not yet sure if the above would even be possible with the rest of you're wiring. |
|
|
|
Post by geo on Sept 8, 2021 1:32:17 GMT -5
Sorry for the bad nomenclature! I'll try to copy yours from now on. N and S coils, each with + and - leads.
When using the neck and bridge pickups with both coils split, swapping the phase works, however since my switching lets you grab either pickup, you just want the outside coils (topmost and bottommost) or the inside coils (S of neck and N of bridge, by your nomenclature). You could do two north coils or two south coils, but as you've pointed out, you'd need to invert the phase or you'll get noise.
The phase toggle is complicated by necessity, because the shared (between rhythm and lead) pickup must be the one to swap phase. Otherwise you will be able to create a switching mode where either (a) the tone circuitry of the unselected circuit is affecting the selected circuit, (b) a pickup from the lead circuit is engaged when the tone circuit is active, or (c) the circuit is shorted. Most of these problems arise when you have the Lead set to both pickups in parallel with inverted phase. If the Fender S-1 switch had a 5th pole, it would be possible to make the switching circuit break enough of the inactive circuit that this didn't matter, but with only a 4PDT toggle for rhythm/lead, the phase toggle needs to be 4PDT.
No errors, though? The modes all do what they should, nothing shorts, leeches, or loads?
|
|
|
|
Post by geo on Sept 8, 2021 1:34:22 GMT -5
This was the original wiring configuration. You can see why it was a problem when it came time to put the tone controls in.  |
|
|
|
Post by Yogi B on Sept 8, 2021 5:24:42 GMT -5
When using the neck and bridge pickups with both coils split, swapping the phase works, however since my switching lets you grab either pickup, you just want the outside coils (topmost and bottommost) or the inside coils (S of neck and N of bridge, by your nomenclature). You could do two north coils or two south coils, but as you've pointed out, you'd need to invert the phase or you'll get noise. My point is that it should be possible to have that happen automatically: i.e. you select a north coil & and south coil while in phase, then just by flipping the phase switch one of those coils is swapped out to get either two norths or two souths. It does have errors. The lower neck "S" wire connects both rhythm & lead circuits together: this is fine when in phase because that wire is grounded and ground is shared between the circuits (sharing a single connection between circuits is fine, because a single connection isn't enough to complete a circuit); however, when out of phase, the lower neck "S" wire is no longer grounded (because the neck pickup is OoP), but is still connected to both circuits — so there's two connections that one and ground. This leads to the kinds of issues you mention. No, not necessarily. The below is what I was thinking (the old phase switch was elided by permanently wiring the connections that were made during the in-phase setting): |
|
|
|
Post by geo on Sept 8, 2021 10:13:37 GMT -5
When using the neck and bridge pickups with both coils split, swapping the phase works, however since my switching lets you grab either pickup, you just want the outside coils (topmost and bottommost) or the inside coils (S of neck and N of bridge, by your nomenclature). You could do two north coils or two south coils, but as you've pointed out, you'd need to invert the phase or you'll get noise. My point is that it should be possible to have that happen automatically: i.e. you select a north coil & and south coil while in phase, then just by flipping the phase switch one of those coils is swapped out to get either two norths or two souths. Ahhh, I understand what you're saying now!! I can't picture doing that with fewer than six poles on switch S2, though. You'd have to manage the regular switching as well as swapping both leads of both coils of the top pickup. Edit: Never mind, I'm thinking about switches with a common terminal again! Might be doable with fewer poles on a slide switch. It does have errors. The lower neck "S" wire connects both rhythm & lead circuits together: this is fine when in phase because that wire is grounded and ground is shared between the circuits (sharing a single connection between circuits is fine, because a single connection isn't enough to complete a circuit); however, when out of phase, the lower neck "S" wire is no longer grounded (because the neck pickup is OoP), but is still connected to both circuits — so there's two connections that one and ground. This leads to the kinds of issues you mention. Ohhh, crap, I should have put ground into S1 instead of the purple lead from Neck S-. (Should also probably have used the phase-swapped outputs in S5, too.) Dammit, I thought I had it! No, not necessarily. The below is what I was thinking (the old phase switch was elided by permanently wiring the connections that were made during the in-phase setting): Ahhh! I see what you did there. That's very elegant. Thank you so much! And thank you for going to so much trouble to do it pretty! (You even went and got the BackIssues font!  ) I should have changed the original wiring to split on + instead of -, instead I thought I had to do both that and swap the phase over. Now I just gotta re-do the switches so they don't have common terminals, and we're good to go. Back to worrying about those plates, I guess! |
|
|
|
Post by geo on Sept 8, 2021 11:27:35 GMT -5
OK! Hopefully I didn't mess anything up when I was converting the switches from common terminal to adjacent connections.  |
|
|
|
Post by geo on Sept 8, 2021 13:45:05 GMT -5
The holes are imperial spaced at 28.6mm centre-to-centre but they're about 4.4mm in diameter (and not countersunk). Looks like someone measured the Jaguar switches' travel at 12mm. The G-141 I want to put in has 17.5mm travel, so I'll have to file off about a quarter centimeter on either side for each switch. The switch body is 24.84mm, with #3 US machine screws set 30.15mm apart, center-to-center. The user measuring the other screws put them about 28mm apart, which might be a perfect fit if the user failed to measure center-to-center. If not, the screw holes of the switch might need to be widened and the switch fastened with a washer and nut. Either way, it looks like this should be feasible with minimal modifications to the Jaguar control plates. Found my plate. The holes are imperial spaced at 28.6mm centre-to-centre but they're about 4.4mm in diameter (and not countersunk). Edge-to-edge they measure 33.05mm, therefore if you're using non-countersunk screws they might just fit. Looking at this G-141 DP4T, it's a 5.54mm wide knob with 17.53mm travel end-to-end and switch positions spaced 3.94mm apart (0.25mm error on that measurement, but we'll be optimistic). This means we need 17.36mm clearance for this switch to hit all 4 positions. For three positions, we only need 13.42mm. If the Jaguar's end-to-end travel is 12mm, you can't even fit 3 positions of this switch into the Jaguar switch plate; you'd need 13.42mm end-to-end. Splitting the shortage between positions 1 and 3, you're left with the switch 0.71mm from rest in positions 1 and 3. That might be within reach of the switch contacts, if you wanted to do this with 3 positions to avoid modifying the switch plate. Of course, this also offsets the mounting for this switch... The holes on the Jaguar plate are 28.6mm apart per Yogi B, and the holes on the G-141 are 30.15mm apart. We've offset the switch 3.94mm-0.71mm = 3.23mm. The screw holes, which were previously 0.775mm out of alignment, are now 2.455mm and 4.005mm out of alignment. You have 2.655mm from the center of the G-141 screw holes to the switch body, and the holes are 1.27mm in radius. So one of the screws would necessarily penetrate the body of the switch. Can't find a 3-pole switch that fits better, so no matter what happens with this mod, you want to cut a new plate. Balls. I'll look into getting a plate made, might just get it cut out of pickguard material. |
|
|
|
Post by newey on Sept 8, 2021 15:03:32 GMT -5
(0.25mm error on that measurement, but we'll be optimistic) This assumes that the switch's slide , in the farthest position, reaches all the way to the edge of the slot. There may be a slight gap. But either way, fitment is not looking good, as you say. |
|
|
|
Post by geo on Sept 8, 2021 16:01:10 GMT -5
There may be a slight gap By those calculations there's an average gap of 0.17mm, however the tolerance for each switch position is +/-0.25mm, so that gap may not appear where you'd like. |
|
|
|
Post by geo on Sept 8, 2021 16:16:44 GMT -5
Is the wiring bug-free as of the latest version, 4.2? Gonna pass this by my luthier and have him start routing.
|
|
|
|
Post by Yogi B on Sept 9, 2021 18:07:16 GMT -5
My point is that it should be possible to have that happen automatically: i.e. you select a north coil & and south coil while in phase, then just by flipping the phase switch one of those coils is swapped out to get either two norths or two souths. Ahhh, I understand what you're saying now!! I can't picture doing that with fewer than six poles on switch S2, though. You'd have to manage the regular switching as well as swapping both leads of both coils of the top pickup. Edit: Never mind, I'm thinking about switches with a common terminal again! Might be doable with fewer poles on a slide switch. The obvious thing to do would be connect all four wires from the neck pickup directly to the 4PDT phase switch. In phase we'd have the connections as currently drawn, and out-of-phase we'd swap N+ with S- and swap N- with S+. That'd have us sorted for swapping the coil splits, tough comes with the caveat that it would affect both the rhythm & lead circuits which is a little conceptually weird but might be something you could live with. OK! Hopefully I didn't mess anything up when I was converting the switches from common terminal to adjacent connections. Looks fine except that the bridge & neck positions are swapped on S3, the below should fix that: |
|
|
|
Post by geo on Sept 9, 2021 20:52:59 GMT -5
Looks fine except that the bridge & neck positions are swapped on S3, the below should fix that: Dag nabit, every time... Thanks, Yogi B, you're a lifesaver. |
|
|
|
Post by geo on Jun 30, 2022 12:45:15 GMT -5
Update:
The wood is in the works, and I'm making some last-minute revisions. No chrome, but very polished steel plates. (I'm sure it'll look pretty enough.) Doing string-through body construction with no tremolo, Strat bridge, a roasted maple neck, single-piece mahogany body. This will be the easiest guitar to play that anybody's ever set hands on.
Also got to thinking about the volume/tone controls and if it might be possible to use dual-gang pots and automatically switch to the correct pot based on whether a humbucker or single coil (split humbucker) was connected. Ordinarily, I would say we're SOL on that front, but I'm back to the SS44D04G4 design, which means we have 2 poles free in every switching position (and common poles instead of adjacent). It should be child's play on the rhythm switch (S5), but I think it might also be possible on the main switches. (S1, S2, S3) Haven't quite figured it out, but I'm trying things...
Edit: SS44D04G4 is a 4-pole, 4-position slide switch with common lugs.
|
|
) I should have changed the original wiring to split on + instead of -, instead I thought I had to do both that and swap the phase over. Now I just gotta re-do the switches so they don't have common terminals, and we're good to go.