Need help/suggestions on setup

[MightyBouch]

Hey everybody, MightyBouch here - I hope you’re all doing well!

Ok, I would appreciate suggestions and any help I can get on rewiring my guitar. Basically, I want to be able to fully control each pup independently - like full, split N pole, split S pole, series, parallel, as well as forward and reverse phase… I would also like to use the following: No Load where applicable and possible, the woman tone circuit(two caps on a spdt center-off sw), a killswitch circuit(momentary push button[this circuit I plan to add later]), single Volume and single Tone. I’ve got the following parts on hand to work with:
-Pups - Seymour Duncan’s - SH-4 @ Bridge & SH-2 @ Neck).
x1 - Volume push/pull
x1 - Tone push/pull
x1 - 5-way fender standard selector switch (the one with 8 offset legs)
x1 - 5-way fender super switch (umm…a lot of legs lol)
x1 - SPDT Center OFF SW.
x3 - DPDT Center ON SWs.
x3 - DPDT Center OFF SWs.

Like, I can preform all necessary soldering and read drawings/diagrams/schematics (or rather, I know the meanings of the symbols and can follow a schematic as far as like wiring it all but I have a very hard time visualizing the signal path in my head. lol I can visualize and follow AC & DC power just fine but I’m lost when it comes to guitar wiring). What I’m trying to say is that if you give me a drawing/schematic/diagram, I can put it together no problem - I just couldn’t tell you much about what’s going on, signal-wise.
Also, I don’t mind drilling holes or anything like that and I’m going to star ground everything to a screw that’s screwed in to the body within the electrical cavity.

Seriously, any help/advice/suggestions or if anyone can point me in the proper direction, I would be most appreciative.
I hope I’ve explained that all clearly - If I haven’t please let me know and I’ll try and clear it up.

Thanks!!
MightyBouch

[newey]

Is this a HH guitar (you describe 2 pickups, but then you mention lever switches, so a bit confusing)? What sort of pickup selector does it have currently?

If it's 2 HBs, two of the DPDT Center On switches could be used to give series/parallel/one single coil, then a second switch for each pickup to swap the coils when split (could be one of your push/pulls). Adding a phase switch on the other P/P would then give you all the combos you want; adding the SPDT for the woman tone then completes your wish list.

[MightyBouch]

Oct 23, 2021 7:02:25 GMT -5 newey said:

Is this a HH guitar (you describe 2 pickups, but then you mention lever switches, so a bit confusing)? What sort of pickup selector does it have currently?

If it's 2 HBs, two of the DPDT Center On switches could be used to give series/parallel/one single coil, then a second switch for each pickup to swap the coils when split (could be one of your push/pulls). Adding a phase switch on the other P/P would then give you all the combos you want; adding the SPDT for the woman tone then completes your wish list.

Oct 23, 2021 7:02:25 GMT -5 newey said:

Is this a HH guitar (you describe 2 pickups, but then you mention lever switches, so a bit confusing)? What sort of pickup selector does it have currently?

If it's 2 HBs, two of the DPDT Center On switches could be used to give series/parallel/one single coil, then a second switch for each pickup to swap the coils when split (could be one of your push/pulls). Adding a phase switch on the other P/P would then give you all the combos you want; adding the SPDT for the woman tone then completes your wish list.

     Hey Newey, hope all is well!
   My apologies - It's a Jackson JS22R Dinky reverse.  It was given to me a while back and it played pretty decent. The electronics were in need of attention though so I pulled everything out and replaced the knockoff pups w/ S. Duncan's, pots w/ Alpha P-P pots, the 3-way selector that was on it originally was one similar to  <~~this...
I replaced it w/ a CRL 3-way. This was done not long after I acquired the guitar.

So, fast-forward like a year later, I finally got tired of how poorly it sounded and decided to recheck the connections I'd made and I realized I'd made a couple of mistake... Wiring in a ground loop and something else, I can't remember atm. But anyways, I decided to re-rewire it lol with a little more care and attention. I've already been using the guitar to learn/practice fret and nut work among other things and seeing as how I can't decide on how I want to set up the electronics, I thought I'd put as many switches and/or whatever else it needs to achieve something as close to fully independent, customizable pickup selecting as I can get while maintaining a passive system.

I hope I've explained all that correctly - it's late and I'm typing on a tablet so I'm almost ready to throw this thing in the nearest adequately submersing collection of water I can find

[newey]

Here's a scheme from our member frets which can perhaps serve as a starting point for discussion. It does most of what you want. The tone control set-up could be fairly easily changed to allow for the "woman tone" rather than the "mid-boost" as shown (which as frets notes, is a bit of a misnomer since nothing can actually get "boosted" in a passive circuit; it's a gate filter).

What this doesn't do is allow for the selection of either North or South coil when the HBs are split. But that, you may well find, is not really very useful to have, as either N or S coil will sound pretty much the same if the coils of the HBs are the same. The slight difference in the coil positions, N versus S, is too small to make much difference in the sound. This is particularly true at the neck, you might hear a slight difference at the bridge. Having the ability to select between N and S coils of a HB is usually done for purposes of hum-cancellation where there are more than 2 pickups being combined. Here, with just 2 HBs, the split-coil setting on the 5-way switch selects the N neck and the S Bridge coils at position 4 of the 5-way switch, so as to maintain hum-cancelling without needing to switch between N and S.

It also allows for the bridge to be split by itself, but the neck is only split in conjunction with the bridge; a separate neck coil-selection switch could be added to cover that option you wanted.

guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/9534/splits-series-phase-midrange-boost

[MightyBouch]

Oct 27, 2021 5:21:39 GMT -5 newey said:

Here's a scheme from our member frets which can perhaps serve as a starting point for discussion. It does most of what you want. The tone control set-up could be fairly easily changed to allow for the "woman tone" rather than the "mid-boost" as shown (which as frets notes, is a bit of a misnomer since nothing can actually get "boosted" in a passive circuit; it's a gate filter).

What this doesn't do is allow for the selection of either North or South coil when the HBs are split. But that, you may well find, is not really very useful to have, as either N or S coil will sound pretty much the same if the coils of the HBs are the same. The slight difference in the coil positions, N versus S, is too small to make much difference in the sound. This is particularly true at the neck, you might hear a slight difference at the bridge. Having the ability to select between N and S coils of a HB is usually done for purposes of hum-cancellation where there are more than 2 pickups being combined. Here, with just 2 HBs, the split-coil setting on the 5-way switch selects the N neck and the S Bridge coils at position 4 of the 5-way switch, so as to maintain hum-cancelling without needing to switch between N and S.

It also allows for the bridge to be split by itself, but the neck is only split in conjunction with the bridge; a separate neck coil-selection switch could be added to cover that option you wanted.

guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/9534/splits-series-phase-midrange-boost

I'm going to put together and post a diagram asap for a couple of reasons - to make sure it's correct and also for me to get it straight in my head. I'll try to get it done quickly.

[MightyBouch]

I’m incredibly sorry for the delay - I’m finding it more and more difficult to find the time to work this diagram out. I think, instead, it’d be a good idea to wire it as shown in frets post (except with the ‘woman tone’ instead of a gate). It’ll be exactly what you’ve suggested newey - I’d like to take this opportunity to thank you for your help and suggestions, I genuinely appreciate it

Thanks!
MightyBouch

**EDIT**
Actually, I do have a question and it may be dumb lol - Would there need to be a tap added to the pup winding if say I wanted to shut off 3 of the 6 poles of either pickup? I was wondering the other day what it might sound like to have control over each of the 6 poles of both humbuckers… So you could select any combination of individual pup poles - say you wanted to select them as shown…I imagine it’s possible but would the cons outweigh the pros? Thoughts?

[newey]

Nov 10, 2021 17:23:07 GMT -5 MightyBouch said:

Actually, I do have a question and it may be dumb lol - Would there need to be a tap added to the pup winding if say I wanted to shut off 3 of the 6 poles of either pickup?

Yes, a tap would be needed. And, not just a regular coil tap, which covers all 6 poles but just halves the number of turns of the wire.

So you could select any combination of individual pup poles - say you wanted to select them as shown…I imagine it’s possible but would the cons outweigh the pros? Thoughts?

Well, if it's all 6 poles individually you want to select/deselect, then a simple coil tap isn't going to do that. You'd need something like a Roland hex pickup.

As for the "Three and Three" arrangement, I know that Gretsch (and probably others as well) have such pickups for use in stereo setups, so 3 strings can be sent to one channel and the other 3 to a separate channel. It's really 2 separate coils under a single cover. Certainly, such a pickup could be wired in mono as you suggest. But as far as drawbacks, understand that a pole piece does not "focus" the magnetic field to just the string it sits under. The field extends a certain distance beyond the one string. So, with your "3 and 3" arrangement, the 6th string will pretty much sound out only when the lower three poles are active, and similarly the 1st string with the other three. But there will be a certian amount of "slop over" on the middle strings- you'll still get a somewhat reduced signal from the 3rd string with the lower three poles selected, for example.

Before you start soldering here, let me draw up a wiring diagram for exactly what you want, adapted from frets' drawing. This will make your life easier, always good to have a finalized design before starting the wiring. I'll try to get something up in the next day or so.

[MightyBouch]

Nov 11, 2021 8:41:42 GMT -5 newey said:

But as far as drawbacks, understand that a pole piece does not "focus" the magnetic field to just the string it sits under. The field extends a certain distance beyond the one string. So, with your "3 and 3" arrangement, the 6th string will pretty much sound out only when the lower three poles are active, and similarly the 1st string with the other three. But there will be a certian amount of "slop over" on the middle strings- you'll still get a somewhat reduced signal from the 3rd string with the lower three poles selected, for example.

Oh okay, that makes total sense - I hadn’t thought of the signal bleeding or anything. Thanks for clearing that up!(:

newey said:

Before you start soldering here, let me draw up a wiring diagram for exactly what you want, adapted from frets' drawing. This will make your life easier, always good to have a finalized design before starting the wiring. I'll try to get something up in the next day or so.

Oh wow, that’s incredibly kind of you! Thank you so much!! 

[newey]

MightyBouch:

Here's an idea, I went in a bit of a different direction from fret's scheme. This gives you either N or S coils and series/parallel for each HB. However, you would need to procure 2 DPDT On-On switches, and it keeps the stock 3-way selector switch, It also omits the phase switch, but includes the "woman tone".



This is based on a design from asmith, this shows the "truth Table" for the switching for one humbucker, the other pickup is identical (i.e., for SW-3 and SW-4 on my diagram):



If this doesn't float yer canoe, let me know and I'll go back to modifying fret's scheme

[newey]

I omitted to add (it was pretty late last night when I posted . . .) that you wouldn't have to buy new switches, you could use the 2 push/pull pots for SW-2 and SW-4. But you also said you didn't mind adding more switches, and I think for this type of thing toggles might be more logical to operate. But note that those switches only matter here when SW-1 and/or SW-3 are in the center position; if you're using the single-coil settings then the push/pulls won't do anything anyway.

Also note that, if you use push/pulls, then (as per asmith's truth table), both HB coils will be in series with the push/pull in the "down" position, parallel will be "up". If you prefer it the other way around, you would just "mirror-image" the wiring for SW-2 and SW-4 vertically, top for bottom.

[MightyBouch]

Nov 13, 2021 0:59:27 GMT -5 newey said:

MightyBouch :

Here's an idea, I went in a bit of a different direction from fret's scheme. This gives you either N or S coils and series/parallel for each HB. However, you would need to procure 2 DPDT On-On switches, and it keeps the stock 3-way selector switch, It also omits the phase switch, but includes the "woman tone".



This is based on a design from asmith , this shows the "truth Table" for the switching for one humbucker, the other pickup is identical (i.e., for SW-3 and SW-4 on my diagram):



If this doesn't float yer canoe, let me know and I'll go back to modifying fret's scheme

Nov 13, 2021 9:02:15 GMT -5 newey said:

I omitted to add (it was pretty late last night when I posted . . .) that you wouldn't have to buy new switches, you could use the 2 push/pull pots for SW-2 and SW-4. But you also said you didn't mind adding more switches, and I think for this type of thing toggles might be more logical to operate. But note that those switches only matter here when SW-1 and/or SW-3 are in the center position; if you're using the single-coil settings then the push/pulls won't do anything anyway.

Also note that, if you use push/pulls, then (as per asmith's truth table), both HB coils will be in series with the push/pull in the "down" position, parallel will be "up". If you prefer it the other way around, you would just "mirror-image" the wiring for SW-2 and SW-4 vertically, top for bottom.

Ok, This is awesome! Seriously, thanks 🙏 
The only like issues I have are - the dpdt on/on, lol I’ll have to use the push/pull pots for now, so not really an issue but the other thing-I don’t have the original 3-way switch or any 3-way blade switchs at the moment… Is there any way to incorporate a fender 5-way or 5-way super switch? I can get a 3-way blade if that’s the easiest route though. 

*Edit:
     I really need to set aside some time to go over all of this more throughly and try to get it straight, but seems like (and I’m just thinking out loud) a 5-way wouldn’t give you any more options at this point, right? That switching design gives you everything for each pup independently with the woman tone options just no parallel/series as that’s not really needed with this 2 humbucker setup, that’s more for like 3 humbuckers or 2hums with a single coil in the middle - Haha hope that sorta makes sense

[newey]

Nov 13, 2021 12:30:42 GMT -5 MightyBouch said:

I don’t have the original 3-way switch or any 3-way blade switchs at the moment… Is there any way to incorporate a fender 5-way or 5-way super switch?

MUUAAA HA HAH! Hmm, a 5-way superswitch. I was figuring keep the thing simple after the fairly complex individual pickup switching, but a 5-way Superswitch could give you other options . . .

Lemme ponder it a bit, more later . . .

[MightyBouch]

newey said:

MUUAAA HA HAH! Hmm, a 5-way superswitch. I was figuring keep the thing simple after the fairly complex individual pickup switching, but a 5-way Superswitch could give you other options . . .

Lemme ponder it a bit, more later . . .

lol yes! And I’ll try to round up all of the electronics I have on hand to throw at this - I nerd out when it c to switches, buttons, etc… 

lemme try to get a pic loaded…

[newey]

OK, so you did have a 3-way switch after all? But, I was already onto the Superswitch . . .

However, I can't work out how to give you B X N (i.e., in series) with the Superswitch, or any out-of-phase combos, without screwing up the existing scheme. Asmith's idea depends on the green wire being permanently grounded, and I can't figure any way to lift that ground for a series connection without messing up the coil cutting done by SW-1 and SW-3. Likewise for OOP. SO, unless someone else comes along with a better idea, I'm back to the original idea with the 3-way switch as shown.

To use the Superswitch, we'd need to revise the other switching, or use it for something other than series or OOP (which were my first ideas for it).

Here's a diagram using the Superswitch, although it's pretty wacky, not sure if you'd like it or not. It keeps all of asmith's swithcing as before, but adds two "cap bleed" options. The Superswitch gives the following:

1) Bridge only
2) Neck + Bridge
3) Neck + Bridge, with cap in parallel to ground on neck pickup (Cap value tba)
4) Bridge only, with cap in series to output on bridge pickup (Cap value tba)
5) Neck only

Anyway, for what it's worth:

[MightyBouch]

Nov 14, 2021 8:35:41 GMT -5 newey said:

OK, so you did have a 3-way switch after all? But, I was already onto the Superswitch . . .

However, I can't work out how to give you B X N (i.e., in series) with the Superswitch, or any out-of-phase combos, without screwing up the existing scheme. Asmith's idea depends on the green wire being permanently grounded, and I can't figure any way to lift that ground for a series connection without messing up the coil cutting done by SW-1 and SW-3. Likewise for OOP. SO, unless someone else comes along with a better idea, I'm back to the original idea with the 3-way switch as shown.

To use the Superswitch, we'd need to revise the other switching, or use it for something other than series or OOP (which were my first ideas for it).

Here's a diagram using the Superswitch, although it's pretty wacky, not sure if you'd like it or not. It keeps all of asmith's swithcing as before, but adds two "cap bleed" options. The Superswitch gives the following:

1) Bridge only
2) Neck + Bridge
3) Neck + Bridge, with cap in parallel to ground on neck pickup (Cap value tba)
4) Bridge only, with cap in series to output on bridge pickup (Cap value tba)
5) Neck only

Anyway, for what it's worth:

This is what I’m going to start wiring up - After looking at this 3-way, all 8 legs and a lot of the switch, for that matter, are covered in rust. I’ll post some pics along the way. And I’m totally not against starting over from scratch if you or anyone thinks of something.  I wish I had enough color assortments of wire to make every connection a different color and the switch groups like one warm colors and the other cool - So many wires lol
 

[newey]

Note that the pickup wires on the diagrams use SD colors, as that was what you said you had for the pickups. As for the wiring, go slow and work in stages, one switch at a time. I find it helpful to make a cardboard template to which I physically mount the switches just as they will be in the actual guitar, this allows me to solder the entire harness (excepting the jack, since on a Strat the wires have to go through the hole to the jack cutout). The template can also answer questions about fitment and switch placement.

If you have a multimeter (highly recommended that you do), you can test each connection as you go along, this can save a lot of grief down the line.

It would be preferable if, before you start soldering, we get someone to take a look at my diagram. I think it is correct but a second set of eyes is always a help.

As for the rusty 3-way switch, a bit of sandpaper to the contacts will remove the rust, and your multimeter will tell you if it is working fine internally. I wouldn't toss it out just for a bit of rust.

[MightyBouch]

newey said:

I find it helpful to make a cardboard template to which I physically mount the switches just as they will be in the actual guitar, this allows me to solder the entire harness (excepting the jack, since on a Strat the wires have to go through the hole to the jack cutout). The template can also answer questions about fitment and switch placement.

I hadn’t thought of doing it that way - Thanks for that tip😊

newey said:

If you have a multimeter (highly recommended that you do), you can test each connection as you go along, this can save a lot of grief down the line.

It would be preferable if, before you start soldering, we get someone to take a look at my diagram. I think it is correct but a second set of eyes is always a help.

I do and will for sure be using it and I agree - Luckily I fell asleep earlier before really getting into it lol 😝

newey said:

As for the rusty 3-way switch, a bit of sandpaper to the contacts will remove the rust, and your multimeter will tell you if it is working fine internally. I wouldn't toss it out just for a bit of rust.

I did test and got continuity from 4/5 positions but the rust appears to have gotten into the switch mechanism itself - It’s all around the edges where the metal case meets the pcb as well as around the switch position locking tab. It looks like it may have sat partially submerged in water - I’ll hang onto it for now though.

Also, I had another thought on this - What if the pups were wired to separate potentiometers? Ok, (and correct me if I get off), both pups were wired first to their own on/on/on switch for coil selection then to a dedicated push/pull potentiometer that would act, not exactly like a blend…more like a volume, so instead of one coil or the other being only on or only off, you could roll one coil or the other in/out of the signal? Is that possible and if so, what’re your thoughts and foreseeable pros and cons, etc… I know you mentioned earlier the need for the ground with that switching system - could wiring in the manner I’ve described allow for more options? I’m just spitballing

[newey]

What if the pups were wired to separate potentiometers? Ok, (and correct me if I get off), both pups were wired first to their own on/on/on switch for coil selection then to a dedicated push/pull potentiometer that would act, not exactly like a blend…more like a volume, so instead of one coil or the other being only on or only off, you could roll one coil or the other in/out of the signal? Is that possible and if so, what’re your thoughts and foreseeable pros and cons, etc… I know you mentioned earlier the need for the ground with that switching system - could wiring in the manner I’ve described allow for more options? I’m just spitballing

If you just wanted to blend one coil into the other, a regular pot can do that. If you want to be able to fade in one coil as you fade the other out, then a dual-gang blend pot with a center detent would be needed. But, yes, this can certainly be done. The existing diagram would have to be changed, however.

[MightyBouch]

So I got it all soldered up and looking pretty ok. I redrew the diagram just before I started though, with the switchs, pots, etc… in the correct positions for the cavity and Checked, then rechecked all the connections… Dropped the circuit in and finished adding the pups and jack input… Plugged it in and….Nothing lol not a peep, hiss or pop regardless of switch positioning(though, I noticed that when the volume push/pull pot is pulled out or pushed in, a very slight signal is detected-no other component registers a signal except this one. Idk if that helps or not?) - I’m trying to track down my error. In the meantime, newey - I’m gonna post a picture of my diagram and if you don’t mind, would you take a look at it and let me know if I’ve left anything out or made any mistakes? Or anyone that has a minute - I’d appreciate a new set of eyes😵‍💫

I’ll get it uploaded shortly…

*1st Edit*
Oh I wanted to also ask just to make sure, the bare wires are soldered to ground, correct? And the component grounds, I thought like the last leg of the volume pot was soldered to ground via the pot housing and all the other components were grounded in the same way? Or would those grounds not be needed in your diagram?;

[newey]

Nov 21, 2021 8:35:32 GMT -5 MightyBouch said:

Oh I wanted to also ask just to make sure, the bare wires are soldered to ground, correct? And the component grounds, I thought like the last leg of the volume pot was soldered to ground via the pot housing and all the other components were grounded in the same way? Or would those grounds not be needed in your diagram?;

My diagram omits the shield grounds for clarity. Yes, they need to be grounded. As for the lugs of the pots, I show them being grounded to a "star ground" point, because that's what you said you were doing. I did not show the shells of the pots being grounded separately. If you have shielded the underside of the pickguard and the cavity, the pot shells will be grounded via contact with the shielding. If you are not shielding, then connecting the pot shells to ground with a separate wire can be done, although probably not really necessary. Not doing so would not explain your issues.

[MightyBouch]

Ok, I got some of it taken care of - Found a couple of cold joints so I’m reflowing. Though, I get tone out of positions 1,2,4,&5 - nothing out of the middle position - once I get the joints fixed I’ll let you know what it’s doing 

[newey]

Nov 24, 2021 3:02:46 GMT -5 MightyBouch said:

nothing out of the middle position

What value cap did you use for that middle position? You might try disconnecting the cap, see if that's the issue.

I didn't specify cap values for the caps on the Superswitch, I was hoping for some input from others on those values.