Not getting the Neck Only position

[frets]

Hi Guys😻,

Can one of the Angels take a look at the below?  I thought I had it right but I’m not getting the Neck Only position. Thank you!!

[Deleted]

your sharing a Tone before it goes off to the switching.


took me a just under a hour to draw that, i kept getting lost
So SW1 & SW2 split the Humbuckers and SW3 is a kinda Tone Switch, im not sure how much one will fight with the other
i do think a Tone Pot of 150K 47nF will take over a 350K at 10nF! .. there must be a cross over

dam it i didnt notice the 100K resister
two VOLUME pots


the Volumes are LINKED !!

[Deleted]

Pass my bed time

A0) N+, A1-3) OUTPUT, A4) C4
B0) N-, B1&3) Ground, B2) C2, B4) OUTPUT
C0) B+, C2) B2, C3) Output, C4) A4, C5) Output
D0) Output, D1-3) A1-3, D4) B4

OUTPUT is after the Neck volume
Output is Tire Output
B+ is after the Bridge Volume

[newey]

Nov 10, 2021 10:49:05 GMT -5 @angellahash said:

the Volumes are LINKED !

Yup. Which means that, at position 1, if the bridge volume is turned down and the neck volume is all the way up, you still won't get any sound from the neck pickup. So, when you say "no sound at neck only", are you checking that with all 3 pots turned to "10"?

Obviously, we can't check for bad connections on the web, the wiring looks OK to me at position 1. But overall, the wiring looks unnecessarily convoluted, there has to be an easier way to get the pickup combos you want with the superswitch. And I don't understand the reason why you are reverse-wiring the volume pots, although that wouldn't affect the issue with the neck pickup.

[frets]

Newey,
I reversed them because the client wanted them that way. I don’t like two volume setups, I always hit the issue of the linkages between the two. And there ain’t no neck only and it’s doing exactly what you said. I’m giving up on this one. I can’t figure it out.

Thanks Angel, but I’m out of my league.

[sumgai]

frets,

OK, settle down, this isn't rocket science, and you aren't losing your marbles. Although you might've temporarily misplaced a few of them.
 
Error #1 is that the Bridge pup is always grounded, and it's hot line is going straight to the output (hot) in positions 2 thru 5. (Numbered per ange's diagram.)  This means that you can never obtain either a series or an OoP connection, SW4 simply can not overcome this kind of permanent connection.  In fact, attempting to do so almost always results in one or more positions becoming totally silent. 

Error #2 is that you've got essentially two Bridge volume controls in parallel, and in some positions the Neck pickup suffers the same fate.  This is not a good thing.

Error #3 - that rat's nest of wiring on SW4.  In one case, you treat the orange wire going into the Bridge Vol wiper as an input (pos 2, both in parallel), but in positions 1 and 3, it's an output (which is redundant, causing a multi-path for the signal to get to the output). It wasn't easy for me to decipher this, trust me. If you were looking to make me go bald, you're on the right path!

Off topic from all of the foregoing is the fact that your alleged Tone control is simply selecting which pair of capacitors to insert into the Mid-Scoop tone modifier.  Using the phrase "Tone at 10" implies that a regular treble-cut tone control is engaged - that's not true in your diagram.  Just food for thought, that's all.

HTH 

EDITed to add: ange, nice diagram, it helped a lot. Thanks.


sumgai

[Deleted]

I think there is a cheat with a CUT on a 2nd Wafer
(NB a second wafer is upside down to the first)
I want a LOW ohms Wafer 50 Ohms etc
Cut the end just near the Silver part (on the end that lines up with the Ground on the volume)
You will need a Dual Spindle inside

then you just go From Volume Output -- Lug 1 or 2 doesnt matter really (using the 2nd Wafer as a cheap low-ish resistance Switch) and then the other Lug 2 or 1 to the Jack Socket.

So when the Volume is OFF, its OFF. When its on it adds on 50Ohms max to the 250'000 PD already there (+0.02%)
This means that you have have N N+B and B on the same Switching

-------------------------------------------

I'm not sure what to do with the Tone and am working in my head on the 4P5T switching.


I didnt put in the TONE !

[newey]

Sorry, frets, but I felt that I should move this post to Wiring as it isn't a working, vetted schematic or diagram. Unfortunately, when I do so, it reads as if I created the thread (Some weirdness in the Proboards software on that).

[frets]

Thanks to Newey, Sumgai and Angel,

I’m going to retry it using a different idea. I did make the switch a rat’s nest. You’ve helped me think of a better way to do it. I don’t know if it’s right but Im going to draw it up and have you look at it, if I think it’s right. What frustrates me is I just can’t see the stuff you guys see. I can usually slog through a Superswitch but man, I wish I had the ability to “see” what you guys see. I know I’ve lamented this is in the past. I’m closer than I was two years ago in term of seeing and understanding; but, it is frustrating not being there yet. Thanks for letting me vent. And as always, thanks for helping me.😻

[newey]

frets-

About 14 years ago, when I first joined here, I was pretty clueless. It takes time, and I'm still learning from others here. But I think the single biggest thing that helped me was learning to read a schematic. I'm still no expert at it, but I "see" things better with a schematic than a wiring diagram. Now, when I start a project, I always sketch it out first as a schematic, which then can easily be translated into a wiring diagram for actual soldering.

[unreg]

frets, I fully understand you. But, I want to point out that sumgai mentioned his “seeing” with going bald. And I’m sure you don’t want to lose your hair too… ; keep working on guitars and I’m sure you’ll arrive at seeing what you desire in time; just keep being patient and productive. 🙂

EDIT: ninja’d by newey

[Deleted]

Not Pretty
and worried how one Volume will effect the other in N and B states

dam it, 4th 1P5T coming out of the BRIDGE VOLUME should be only connected at 1 & 3 FLIP FLOPS

[sumgai]

ange,


Your dual-vol pot solution would be impressive if.... Consider;

Tracing back from the output jack "hot, the black line goes to the lower wafer of each pot. Through that lower wafer, the signal can't get directly to ground because the far end of the resistance element has been sundered. Fine so far. But what about the upper wafer?

Turns out, because the lower wafer is only 50Ω, you essentially have a direct line between the input pin and the wiper no matter what the rotation angle. In turn, as you rotate the upper wafer, you are sending that black line from the jack tip more and more towards ground. End result? In position 3 (both pups in parallel), both pups are going to be reduced in signal level whenever either control is reduced from 10.  Probably not what you wanted, eh?

Sadly, even though you don't connect the Bridge pickup through it's vol pot when using the two series connections in positions 2 & 4, that vol pot is still in the circuit, and still acts on the overall signal output.  Not expected, I'm pretty sure.

<Discussion>.
The only other solution, which is greatly undesirable, is to switch the Bridge's vol pot along with the Bridge pup itself.  Meaning, the Bridge pup and vol pot are in parallel, both in series with the Neck pup.  Not a good idea, tonally speaking. Worse, the Neck vol pot remains as a Master, unless you switch it around as well! All in all, not a good way to force a dual control scenario just for the sake of being able to balance the signal between the two pickups.  Tonally speaking, this is about as far from The Mojo Tone™ as one can willingly get.  Ugh. 

But that's considering that we're using 'modern' vol pot wiring, not the so-called backwards wiring.  Using that backwards method does solve just about every issue for the parallel combo, but doing so has a deleterious effect on tone.  Worse, it doesn't solve the series combos, for the same reasons as above.  If the customer doesn't want that, and I don't blame her, then she's going to have to live with the shortcomings of the 'modern' way of wiring, or else just go for a Master control and be done with it.   Install a separate balance control if the customer wants it so badly.  That presents it's own set of problems, but we've covered that topic pretty well here in The Nutzhouse.
</Discussion>

One more thing - you followed frets' diagram too closely.  Cutting to the same coil from each humbucker at the same time will result in full-on hum. You need to cut to North on one pup, and South on the other, in order to remain humless.

HTH




sumgai

[Deleted]

Nov 11, 2021 23:48:42 GMT -5 sumgai said:

ange,


Your dual-vol pot solution would be impressive if.... Consider;

Tracing back from the output jack "hot, the black line goes to the lower wafer of each pot. Through that lower wafer, the signal can't get directly to ground because the far end of the resistance element has been sundered. Fine so far. But what about the upper wafer?

2nd Wafer is just a GLORY SWITCH with 50Ω (I could MAKE one that does it with near ZERO ohms) but i am working with what people can do for themselves) VOLUME ground then the Glory Switch is OFF. Best i could do for B or N on its OWN. Working within my LIMITS of what i have to work with. and i do note that its not GREAT and IM not keen on it.

Turns out, because the lower wafer is only 50Ω, you essentially have a direct line between the input pin and the wiper no matter what the rotation angle. In turn, as you rotate the upper wafer, you are sending that black line from the jack tip more and more towards ground. End result? In position 3 (both pups in parallel), both pups are going to be reduced in signal level whenever either control is reduced from 10.  Probably not what you wanted, eh?


So when it is N or B on its OWN trying to stop the Volume from working.
why the Dual Wafer the 2nd Wafer 50Ohms with a CUT one side so that when the VOLUME is at GROUND no Signal is Bypassing from the Volume Ground or Signal.
To Add to this the Signal from the Pickups is being cut by connecting + and - sides together, with both sides being Equal. This does not stop the Volume and the reason for the (+ N/B Volume Effects) Note in the chart.

Position 3 with both N and B on via their own Volume, the 2nd wafer can turn one or the other one off.
This is what was ASKED FOR, as i get TOLD off for GOING off TRACK. i shouldnt be slapped for this.
I dont LIKE Two VOLUMES, im very much in the favor of ONE RING to RULE THEM ALL theory.


------------------------

Sadly, even though you don't connect the Bridge pickup through it's vol pot when using the two series connections in positions 2 & 4, that vol pot is still in the circuit, and still acts on the overall signal output.  Not expected, I'm pretty sure.

I am not sure which one YOU are looking at. The LOWER two Circuits TRYING to get back on TRACK of what was asked than wondering off (id be rubbish following the yellow brick road) you will see the 4th Coming out of the BRIDGE VOLUME 1P5T used it position 1 and 2 to be the ONLY ones to use the Volume on the Bridge side [ DAM IT should be 1 and 3 ]..
[Is there any better colours to use to make it easier to people to follow]
I would LOVED to be able to have a bit of a blend and re use the Bridge Volume but sadly i couldnt.


-----------------------


The only other solution, which is greatly undesirable, is to switch the Bridge's vol pot along with the Bridge pup itself.  Meaning, the Bridge pup and vol pot are in parallel, both in series with the Neck pup.  Not a good idea, tonally speaking. Worse, the Neck vol pot remains as a Master, unless you switch it around as well! All in all, not a good way to force a dual control scenario just for the sake of being able to balance the signal between the two pickups.  Tonally speaking, this is about as far from The Mojo Tone™ as one can willingly get.  Ugh. 

One has the a feeling that you have got a idea in your head and ran with it to the hills and far over. Dear Sir.
I am SPACED out with this COMMENT and not knowing what you are on, or planet wise.

But that's considering that we're using 'modern' vol pot wiring, not the so-called backwards wiring.  Using that backwards method does solve just about every issue for the parallel combo, but doing so has a deleterious effect on tone.  Worse, it doesn't solve the series combos, for the same reasons as above.  If the customer doesn't want that, and I don't blame her, then she's going to have to live with the shortcomings of the 'modern' way of wiring, or else just go for a Master control and be done with it.   Install a separate balance control if the customer wants it so badly.  That presents it's own set of problems, but we've covered that topic pretty well here in The Nutzhouse.
</Discussion>

One more thing - you followed frets' diagram too closely.  Cutting to the same coil from each humbucker at the same time will result in full-on hum. You need to cut to North on one pup, and South on the other, in order to remain humless.

HTH




sumgai

[Deleted]

I ain't a English Poet, so I've made it SIMPLE.. Cutting out the bits that are not ACTIVE in set stages
and cutting out the Tone system
new Master Copy below (after Sumgai spotted on the 4th 1P5T from the Volume was 1&2 and not 1&3)

[frets]

Angela,
I appreciate all the work you’ve done but you know I can’t read the diagrams and interpret them into a real life circuit. I have such trouble with thst. Which one should I focus on to try and interpret?