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Post by frets on Nov 18, 2021 20:05:13 GMT -5
This is a revision to a previous I have posted. I had forgotten to ground the Volume Potš  |
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Post by newey on Nov 19, 2021 9:07:14 GMT -5
Love your diagrams, frets. You probably should put HH in the thread title so someone doesn't click on it expecting a regular Tele SS setup. Also note that the coil split switches both split to the N coil, so that the N + B combo, when both HBs are split, will not be hum-cancelling. (This is easily corrected if desired) |
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Post by frets on Nov 19, 2021 12:44:41 GMT -5
Thanks Newey,
Where do I go to make it hum cancelling?
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Post by unreg on Nov 19, 2021 15:03:24 GMT -5
frets, I think this is correct: Since newey talked about both N coils being selected, hum-canceling requires a N and S coil to be selected. That makes logical sense to me; have read about hum-canceling needing a N and S coil in prior thread (might have been from ChrisK).
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Post by frets on Nov 19, 2021 15:22:08 GMT -5
I dunno Unreg,
The more I think about it, it might need the North Start and South Start on one of the pot switches.
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Post by unreg on Nov 19, 2021 15:44:42 GMT -5
Love your diagrams, frets. ā¦ Also note that the coil split switches both split to the N coil, so that the N + B combo, when both HBs are split, will not be hum-cancelling. (This is easily corrected if desired) , (I have no clue what all the wires mean. š) It just seems to me that one coil split switch should split a N coil, and the other switch split a S coil, so that the N+B combo will utilize a N & S coil. Maybe just adjust one wire? Sry, idk. N + S = hum-canceling. š |
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Post by newey on Nov 19, 2021 17:57:09 GMT -5
There are 2 options, the "down and dirty" option ( ashcatlt hates when I suggest this) and the "right and proper" method.  The "right and proper" method involves wiring one of the two HBs "inside out". For SD wire colors, normally, black is the + out, green is the -, and the white and red form the series junction between the coils. In frets ' diagram, shorting that wire pair to ground means the S coil is grounded at both ends, but the white wire is grounded as well, so we hear only the N coil. To wire the pickup "inside out", this "restacks" the coils (while keeping in phase). The red wire is grounded, the white wire is the + output, and the green and black wires form the series junction. This allows one switch to select the N coil where the red/white pair is grounded, and the other switch to select the S coil where the Green/black pair is grounded. "Down and dirty" is simple. Leave one pickup as is, with the red/white pair grounded to select the N coil, and for the other switch, rather than have the red/white pair go to ground, wire them to the + output instead. This will also then give the S coil. |
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Post by frets on Nov 19, 2021 19:24:48 GMT -5
Newey, I know of this method. I think. On one of the pots, Iād be putting the black and green on the switch with white being the hot and solder red to ground.
The funny thing about the setup I diagrammed is Iāve built it several times and it works as advertised. Im getting individual splits to the bridge and the neck.
But I want it to be the best that it can be.
Iāll work up a new diagram for you guys to vett.
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Post by newey on Nov 19, 2021 19:41:51 GMT -5
The funny thing about the setup I diagrammed is Iāve built it several times and it works as advertised SOme folks can live with more hum than others. The type of pickup makes a difference, too. When people used to modify the '50s-era Strats, which came with a 3-way switch so that only one pickup was selected at a time, people began to modify the switch to get the "in-between" positions we know as 2 and 4. Those combos were likewise not hum-cancelling, since the middle pickups were not yet reverse-wound, reverse polarity (RWRP). People didn't complain too much then about the hum, it was just part of the picture with a Strat (as modified). Even now, there are those vintage cork-sniffer types who insist on not having a RWRP middle pickup, as it doesn't sound "authentic vintage" or whatever. |
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Post by stevewf on Nov 20, 2021 0:17:06 GMT -5
The funny thing about the setup I diagrammed is Iāve built it several times and it works as advertised SOme folks can live with more hum than others. I agree that there'll be more [chance of] hum with a South and a South versus a South and a North... as long as the two coils are in phase, which I believe I see in the diagram. I've also found that good shielding/screening and playing in a 'quiet' zone can keep the hum down to the point where there's the barest of differences between hum-cancelling versus humming! At least when the coils are in parallel with each other; in series, the difference in hum has been noticeable. So it might be worth testing to compare position 3 with both knobs pulled up before and after doing one of the mods suggested by newey. Me, I love hum-hunting, so it'd be no question for me - and I think I'd do the "right and proper method." |
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Post by ashcatlt on Nov 20, 2021 10:55:14 GMT -5
 My reply was going to be about the same as yours except much more brief and probably less helpful. I donāt love the term āinside outā because thereās two ways to do that, and the most intuitive way (like youād do with a shirt) will leave the whole thing upside down. āRestackā I think is less ambiguous. But I guess I already know wtf weāre talking about... Iād usually go for the ādirtyā version because itās just less messing around in general. Other people worry about the shorted coil hanging from hot, but I aināt scared. |
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Post by frets on Nov 20, 2021 14:47:17 GMT -5
Still confused as to the ādirtyā method.šŗ
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Post by stevewf on Nov 21, 2021 3:23:02 GMT -5
Other people worry about the shorted coil hanging from hot, but I aināt scared. Me no like Tarzan hanging from hot vine. But in the "dirty" version, in this case, I think I see the unused coil gets connected to the hot with both of its leads, not just one lead. It's not hanging from the hot, it's, er, sitting on the hot. I'm guessing that's not bad in terms of hum, but does it have any other effect? Back to the "dirty" method. If I understand the "dirty", it means shifting one thing. That thing is the joint between the two HB coils, sometimes called the Split aka Tap aka Serial joint. In the diagram, that's where the South's red lead joins the North's white lead. Often, the coils are split by using a switch to connect a ground wire to that joint, like I see in the diagram's push-pulls. But with "dirty", the joint gets connected a hot lead instead. In the diagram, that means that the grey wire would remain connected to the same terminal(s) in the switch, but the other end of the grey wire would join the pickup's black wire. Somebody shout if that's wrong! Incidentally, it looks like that grey wire is connected needlessly to one of the throws of the switch -- the lower left terminal in the diagram. That throw's pole isn't being used, so you could save one solder(less) joint by omitting that connection. |
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Post by newey on Nov 21, 2021 9:57:02 GMT -5
Somebody shout if that's wrong! OK, I'm shouting. Fret's diagram is a bit confusing in that she is using a light grey color for the white wire from the pickup, and showing the pickup shield ground as dark grey, which is then connecting to the grounding lug on the frame of the push/pull switch. Hard to tell one grey from the other. I typically omit the shield wires from diagrams as it is understood they are to be grounded in some fashion. Also, it looks like the one for the neck pickup is clearly connected, but the one from the bridge pickup seems to stop short of the grounding lug. In any event, the red/white "series junction" needs to be wired to the "hot" output. The grey wire attached to the bottom 2 lugs (as noted, one connection is redundant as only half the switch is used) would need to be disconnected entirely, and the bottom ug of the push/pull attached to either the black wire of the HB or to the yellow output, either way. But you have to disconnect the grey wire from the ground first. The objection to having a pickup shorted to itself on the hot side (and I apologize to ashcatlt if it wasn't him) was something about less energy on the string or something, never made much sense to me. |
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Post by ashcatlt on Nov 21, 2021 11:08:30 GMT -5
...and the bottom ug of the push/pull attached to either the black wire of the HB or to the yellow output, either way. I think it has to go to the black wire otherwise the V pot will act funny when the switch is engaged. I donāt think stevewf was really wrong. If you disconnect that gray wire from the frame ground, so that it is only connected to the switch lugs, you can move the now free end to where the black wire is and itāll work fine. Like if itās already soldered in, it doesnāt need to be removed completely. Since these arenāt actually wires by just colored lines on a screen, the āartistā can I guess do what they need to. Maybe pick a new color to avoid confusion? Iām still not actually sold on the 4-way wiring. Doesnāt look right to me. |
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Post by frets on Nov 21, 2021 15:28:33 GMT -5
The Switch Wiring Works, I can attest to that.
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Post by stevewf on Nov 21, 2021 17:39:52 GMT -5
The objection to having a pickup shorted to itself on the hot side ... was something about less energy on the string or something, never made much sense to me. Anybody remember where this was discussed (shorting a coil to itself on the hot)? I'm open to being convinced. That said, I probably wouldn't go so far as to upgrade an already-multi-pole switch for the sake of avoiding the situation, but maybe I'd go out of my way to use extra poles that are already there. After all, Leave No Lug Unsoldered! |
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Post by newey on Nov 21, 2021 22:08:37 GMT -5
Anybody remember where this was discussed (shorting a coil to itself on the hot)? I don't recall the exact context, much less the thread- and if recall it has been brought up more than once. @ JohnH will probably remember. |
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Post by sumgai on Nov 22, 2021 13:01:19 GMT -5
Anybody remember where this was discussed (shorting a coil to itself on the hot)? was the first to hit on this, way back in 2007 or thereaboots. Wherein I, UnklMickey, ChrisK, JohnH, ashcatlt, wolf and, a few others, all had more than one discussion on this topic. I seem to recall that Chris did some testing, but that sieve I call a memory is no longer so sure of this. Perhaps Chris only espoused a theory, I no longer recall what was actually said. But the upshot was, unless you are a rabidly unrepentant Tone Nazi, then it's probably best to eliminate the possibility of hum, given that the next place you play just might be filled with EM (electromagnetic) noise. Even your home might.... wait a minute... ask pyrroz, he's had something to say about EM in one's home. He's mentioned it several times during his tenure here. |
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Post by sumgai on Nov 22, 2021 14:06:13 GMT -5
frets, There's no industry standard as to which coil is labeled which, i.e. is the South coil the one with screws... or the one with slugs? There should be, but sadly, no. Boiled down to the simplest rule - you must maintain a "one pickup has a coil shorted to hot, the other pickup has a coil shorted to ground". Just be sure that you know which coil has which magnetic polarity, in order to maintain humbucking. Test if you aren't absolutely positive about this. (I'm speaking to customer demands here, they sometimes want mis-matched pups.) Of course, when using a matched pair, the labeling will lead you to use North on one pup and South on the other. Now the more complex rule - because of that occasional demand for a pair of mis-match pickups, you may find that one company called the screw coil North, but the other company called the screw coil South. In such a case, you will find that in order maintain humbucking, you are indeed shorting the labeled-on-the-diagram-as-South coil (for example) on both pickups. But it will still be one to hot, the other to ground. Just remain calm, you're doing this is because of non-standard naming, not because of a wiring diagram error! We Nutz tend to forget that sometimes an unconventional installation will require a non-standard approach to "making it all work". (IOW, the diagram didn't actually cover all possible cases.) HTH sumgai
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Post by frets on Nov 23, 2021 10:29:59 GMT -5
 Thanks to all and special thanks to Angellahash, my bud. |
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My reply was going to be about the same as yours except much more brief and probably less helpful.