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Post by pablogilberto on Nov 24, 2021 6:54:25 GMT -5
Heo gnuts folks
Does anyone have experience in winding Pbass 5 strings pu?
Typical Fender have 6 and 4 polepice per coil. This makes the coil shape uneven.
When wound with the same turns, 6polepiece will result to a higher resistance and inductance. Hum cancelling will also not be perfect.
If wound in such a way that dcr is same, the 6 pole output will be weaker I suppose due to less winds.
What's the best solution to match them in terms of output and hum cancelling?
How do Fender usually do it and how's your expwrience?
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Post by newey on Nov 24, 2021 8:59:49 GMT -5
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Post by ms on Nov 24, 2021 12:18:49 GMT -5
Heo gnuts folks Does anyone have experience in winding Pbass 5 strings pu? Typical Fender have 6 and 4 polepice per coil. This makes the coil shape uneven. When wound with the same turns, 6polepiece will result to a higher resistance and inductance. Hum cancelling will also not be perfect. If wound in such a way that dcr is same, the 6 pole output will be weaker I suppose due to less winds. What's the best solution to match them in terms of output and hum cancelling? How do Fender usually do it and how's your expwrience? This is an interesting problem for a 5 string bass. You want to keep the responses of all the strings equal, but increase the response to hum of the 4 pole coil to match the other. I would try adding some small ferrite pieces towards the back of the 4 pole coil. If this works, it would require a great deal of experimentation that would need to be done outside the bass in a test setup. In other words, this would not be a quick fix, but it might be successful with enough work. (Remember, most of the signal response comes from the part of the coil closest to the string, while the hum response comes from all along since the hum field changes slowly with distance. Therefore, magnetic material near the back of the coil away from the strings does not affect the string output very much, but does increase sensitivity to hum. Or so the theory goes!) |
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Post by pablogilberto on Dec 3, 2021 3:03:12 GMT -5
Thanks for your insights!
I'd like to do some experimentation and testing.
Do you have any suggestion about the setup?
I'm thinking about these:
#1 Measure the output of the pickups in terms of voltage vs freq using exciter coil.
- This will tell the difference between the short and long coils when wound with the same number of turns.
#2 Measure the hum present per coil
- I don't know any good method to do this? I think I need some source of hum that is consistent and reproduceable.
- This will tell how what adjustments need to be done so that both pickups will generate the same amount of hum
For #1, I also want to understand the effect of different string gauges with respect to the output since the 2 coils will sense either the thick group or the thin group. I want to know whether the short coil is good to use for the B and E and then the long coil for the A D and G strings or other combination is better?
What do you think?
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Post by newey on Dec 3, 2021 7:41:58 GMT -5
If you're going to wind your own custom pickup, why not just forget the split coils and make a single coil with 5 pole pieces? Get a P-Bass pickguard without a hole cut for the split-coil pickup, cut your own hole to fit what you made. If hum is the worry, make it a humbucker or a stacked coil, shield the cavity, i.e., do all the things normally done to combat hum. Remember that the original P-basses had a single coil pickup, your 5-string could look "vintage" . . . Just my 2¢ worth  |
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Post by gckelloch on Dec 4, 2021 15:05:49 GMT -5
If you're going to wind your own custom pickup, why not just forget the split coils and make a single coil with 5 pole pieces? Get a P-Bass pickguard without a hole cut for the split-coil pickup, cut your own hole to fit what you made. If hum is the worry, make it a humbucker or a stacked coil, shield the cavity, i.e., do all the things normally done to combat hum. Remember that the original P-basses had a single coil pickup, your 5-string could look "vintage" . . . Just my 2¢ worth Wilde USA (Bill Lawrence designed) makes a 5-pole/coil P-Bass pickup for $72. Bill's design incorporates a high permeability type of AlNiCo II and very thin wire coils for increased fundamental note response, efficiency & clarity. I assume it's 3.8H in series. So, 0.95H in parallel if you want extended high-end (along with lower output), or you can use it in series with the bass "Q-Filter" to dial in a mid-dip + high-end extension into the 8kHz+ range without any low-end loss for acoustic-like tones. |
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Post by pablogilberto on Dec 7, 2021 7:02:58 GMT -5
thankks for the suggestions. I think I can do that. But I'm also realy interested in solving this "puzzle".
Especially that I'm planning to install this pickups on bass guitars that are already routed this way.
I want to understand it more and come up with a solution.
maybe I can try your suggestion in some occasion.
cheers!
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Post by pablogilberto on Dec 7, 2021 7:08:58 GMT -5
If you're going to wind your own custom pickup, why not just forget the split coils and make a single coil with 5 pole pieces? Get a P-Bass pickguard without a hole cut for the split-coil pickup, cut your own hole to fit what you made. If hum is the worry, make it a humbucker or a stacked coil, shield the cavity, i.e., do all the things normally done to combat hum. Remember that the original P-basses had a single coil pickup, your 5-string could look "vintage" . . . Just my 2¢ worth Wilde USA (Bill Lawrence designed) makes a 5-pole/coil P-Bass pickup for $72. Bill's design incorporates a high permeability type of AlNiCo II and very thin wire coils for increased fundamental note response, efficiency & clarity. I assume it's 3.8H in series. So, 0.95H in parallel if you want extended high-end (along with lower output), or you can use it in series with the bass "Q-Filter" to dial in a mid-dip + high-end extension into the 8kHz+ range without any low-end loss for acoustic-like tones.
I'll check this pickup model. THakns!
Some questions though: #1 what do you mean with high permeabiliity A2? Do you suggest that not all A2 are the same in terms of permeability? How do we test/measure/identify this?
#2 "very thin wire coils for increased fundamental note response, efficiency & clarity." - I want to understand this better. I know that using thinner wire gauge results to higher DC, which raises the Q factor. But in terms of Inductance, there will be no significant difference. THe capacitance might change, but it is not directly proportional with wire gauge. What do you mean by fundamental note response, efficiency and clarity?
Thakny!
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Post by gckelloch on Dec 7, 2021 14:10:37 GMT -5
Wilde USA (Bill Lawrence designed) makes a 5-pole/coil P-Bass pickup for $72. Bill's design incorporates a high permeability type of AlNiCo II and very thin wire coils for increased fundamental note response, efficiency & clarity. I assume it's 3.8H in series. So, 0.95H in parallel if you want extended high-end (along with lower output), or you can use it in series with the bass "Q-Filter" to dial in a mid-dip + high-end extension into the 8kHz+ range without any low-end loss for acoustic-like tones. I'll check this pickup model. THakns! Some questions though: #1 what do you mean with high permeabiliity A2? Do you suggest that not all A2 are the same in terms of permeability? How do we test/measure/identify this? #2 "very thin wire coils for increased fundamental note response, efficiency & clarity." - I want to understand this better. I know that using thinner wire gauge results to higher DC, which raises the Q factor. But in terms of Inductance, there will be no significant difference. THe capacitance might change, but it is not directly proportional with wire gauge. What do you mean by fundamental note response, efficiency and clarity? Thakny!
Yes, all AII is not the same. In this case, it depends on the sintering process. I don't know how to test permeability. I think the same winds of thinner wire may actually result in a lower Q due to more consistent impedance, but core alloy is a bigger factor in Q anyway. The flux lines from the strings traverse more of a thinner wire coil, which emphasizes larger vibrations at the same coil distance more than in a thicker wire coil. Lower note harmonics are larger than higher note harmonics. I think clarity and efficiency just comes from the orientation of the small/dense coil within the magnetic field. Cancelations are minimized, but pole piece permeability is an efficiency factor as well. Capacitance in Wilde pickups is very low due to wire insulation choices and proprietary winding machines that adjust tension as they wind, which also improves coil efficiency via maximizing wind density. I don't really know much more than that, but these are some things I discussed with Bill Lawrence b4 he died. Becky is much less likely to discuss any details for fear of copiers affecting her business. It's just her and her daughter Shannon now working in a small shop in Georgia. Here's some more about the P46. Original Fender P-Bass pickups were in the 5-7H range. The efficiency of the P46 should make up for the 3.8H inductance loss. The stronger lower note harmonic response and better high-end extension will also make it less mid-focused. It should be virtually flat up to ~4kHz with a low (~200pF) capacitance cable & 250k pots into a 1M Ohm input, whereas a 6H pickup would start to roll off at ~2kHz. Turning the tone knob down to ~7 would get roughly the same roll-off as a 6H pickup, but the P46 will have stronger lower note harmonics. You'll also notice a much more substantial tonal change with a 3.8H pickup and a low capacitance cable as the tone knob is rolled down. I now use a 160pF cable. The Q-Filter can be wired on a P/P pot as a "Q-Tone" so you can have a standard tone in one position and the Q-Filter in the other, if the idea of a mid-dip with an acoustic bass like high-end extension appeals to you. The total price for that and a P46 would be ~$110 shipped. Bill spoke highly of Jason Lollar, and talked with him on the phone a lot, but I honestly don't see any advantage in his more expensive P-Bass pickup. A dealer once told me he had trouble selling Bill's pickups because players assume more expensive pickups are better. That's probably true of most consumers, but the evidence in the pickup market certainly does not support the belief. Here's a good demo of a P-bass with a Wilde P46. Keep in mind, although there are several gain stages, there isn't any level compression listed on the bass guitar signal, so it sticks out a bit: |
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