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Post by frets on May 10, 2022 17:10:03 GMT -5
Hi Guys,
I have a customer who has a Black Beauty Les Paul. He wants a 6-Way with Coil Splits to all 3, Out-Of-Phase to two pickups and series to two pickups. He keeps on saying this was a Gibson configuration. I have never heard of such a beast. Have any of you heard of a Beauty with that configuration?
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Post by JohnH on May 10, 2022 17:29:00 GMT -5
I've never heard of all that on a stock Gibson, with 3 pickups. Maybe he was thinking of Jimmy Page mods with 2 pickups?
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Post by Yogi B on May 10, 2022 19:52:49 GMT -5
Maybe he was thinking of Jimmy Page mods with 2 pickups? Or amalgamating two Jimmy Page Models: the "Jimmy Page Signature Custom" (black beauty) & "Number Two". (The #2 is the one with all the switching options: push/pulls for local series/parallel & coil splits, plus the two push switches under the pickguard for global parallel / series OoP and a separate phase switch.) The black beauty has the six position Freeway switch (a 3x3-02, nowadays obsoleted by the 3x3-03) and AFAIK are the only Gibsons to have ever come with any kind of Freeway switch as stock. However, it only has the one push/pull which splits the bridge pickup, and the middle pickup is wired permanently OoP. Out-Of-Phase to two pickups and series to two pickups. Does that mean two out-of-phase switches, or one switch to enable out-of-phase sounds between two (or more) pickups? Same question for the series switches. If it's the former, where did Gibson (/ where does he want to) drill a hole for the extra switch? Two OoP switches plus two series switches equals the full complement of four push-pulls, and there's no coil splits counted yet! |
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Post by newey on May 10, 2022 20:21:53 GMT -5
and there's no coil splits counted yet Well,the tone pots could be used for the coil splits (coil split at 9-10, normal tone operation 8 and under.) JohnH turned me onto that mod, I have it on my Epi LP Jr. However, it doesn't play nicely with my HB's local series/parallel switch as the single coil gets cut out at 10 in series mode. Not sure that there's any way around that with a push/pull, but I keep the tone pot at 8 anyway, and make a purposeful move to split coil, no biggie to push the push/pull in at the same time. |
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Post by Yogi B on May 11, 2022 0:45:29 GMT -5
and there's no coil splits counted yet Well,the tone pots could be used for the coil splits (coil split at 9-10, normal tone operation 8 and under.) JohnH turned me onto that mod, I have it on my Epi LP Jr. However, it doesn't play nicely with my HB's local series/parallel switch as the single coil gets cut out at 10 in series mode. Not sure that there's any way around that with a push/pull, but I keep the tone pot at 8 anyway, and make a purposeful move to split coil, no biggie to push the push/pull in at the same time. Isn't that exactly what you want to happen? I guess you meant at 10 in parallel mode it cuts both coils? In that case the fix would be to take the wire to the tone pot from the other of the centre tap leads. Assuming you have it set up with the pot on the ground side of the circuit (the tone pot's wiper connected to ground, CCW lug to the volume/switch via the tone cap, and CW lug to one of the HB's tap leads). Then it sounds like you've picked the wrong tap wire, the one that's connected to the ground-most coil when in series, thus when in parallel that lead (& therefore the CW lug of the tone pot) gets connected to hot. Thereby when turning the pot fully CW (up to 10) you short the signal. Whereas, the lead you didn't pick gets grounded in the parallel setting — in that case both the CW lug and wiper of the tone pot would be at ground, thereby avoiding the capability to kill the signal. (And whilst in parallel the tone control would work as just a regular tone control.) Anyway, I wasn't thinking about spin-a-splits because I was thinking 2V2T, because that's what the aforementioned guitars have — though I admit frets didn't specify and the client may indeed wish to have three tones & a master volume. In any event, there is likely going to be one spare push pull, because I don't see how you could meaningfully have two global series/parallel switches. However that still won't be enough (only a DPDT) to split three humbuckers. |
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Post by frets on May 11, 2022 11:52:08 GMT -5
Thanks Guys,
He wants the “Number 2” which I have never seen; nor, played. And I can’t find any wiring of it. He wants the one with every switch. Have any of you seen a wiring diagram for this beast?
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Post by Yogi B on May 11, 2022 13:02:20 GMT -5
Thanks Guys, He wants the “Number 2” which I have never seen; nor, played. And I can’t find any wiring of it. He wants the one with every switch. Have any of you seen a wiring diagram for this beast? Yeah, they're pretty rare (only 325 produced) and expensive (easily $10k+ for one of the 200 'basic' versions, and more like $50k for one of the 25 played & signed by Page himself). Something I neglected to mention is that the Number two is a regular LP — it only has two pickups — so its wiring couldn't be directly applied to a black beauty. But, for what it's worth, here's the wiring diagram: |
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Post by frets on May 11, 2022 18:47:15 GMT -5
Thanks Yogi,
I am woefully inexperienced with the black beauty in all its different forms.
In further speaking with him, he wants to be able to split all pickups, series all pickups and phase all pickups and wants the 6-way.
I don’t see how that can be done with 4 push pulls.
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Post by unreg on May 12, 2022 2:08:51 GMT -5
In further speaking with him, he wants to be able to split all pickups, series all pickups and phase all pickups and wants the 6-way. I don’t see how that can be done with 4 push pulls. Yogi also mentioned 2 push switches under the pick guard: (The #2 is the one with all the switching options: push/pulls for local series/parallel & coil splits, plus the two push switches under the pickguard for global parallel / series OoP and a separate phase switch.) EDIT: Note: Yogi also mentioned a separate phase switch. I think I finally found it in the diagram, but didn’t mention it bc I am uncertain about the meaning of that sentence.  |
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Post by frets on May 12, 2022 14:14:30 GMT -5
Unreg, it doesn’t have a pickguard.
So this dude wants coil splits to all 3 pickups, series to all 3 and phase to all 3.
That ain’t happening. Unless one of the Angels can figure it out. But I could give him 2 coil splits on the Volume. Coil Split to the Middle/Tone, Series to the Bridge and Neck on one push pull/Tone and a Phase to the Middle/Tone. That uses up my 4 push pulls. All on a 6-Way.
Can anybody think of a better combination? Or do I have it all wrong? Can I get a Coil Split to all 3? I know how to do it on a blade but not on this.
Newey mentioned a Spin A Split. I’m trying to figure out how that could work into the scheme. What do you guys think? John, is there a variation of one of your wirings that might achieve some of what this guy wants?
So many questions…As always, thanks!!
😺😺😺j
Oh, 1 more thought. Could I use a Rotary or 2 to pull this off?
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Post by MattB on May 12, 2022 15:17:46 GMT -5
If you use two push-pulls to phase reverse two pickups, that leaves you two push-pulls and the 6-way to do coil selection and parallel/series.
With the 3x3-05 Freeway switch I think you should be able to get all parallel selections except N+M+B, and in series two out of the three possible two-pickup combos (NxM, MxB, NxB), plus all three pickups in series. |
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Post by frets on May 12, 2022 15:53:55 GMT -5
Thanks Matt,
He’s adamant about the switch having B+M+N. And he wouldn’t pay for the triple shots. Sorry, I’m not trying to be negative I just have to accomplish this with straight ‘ol wiring. I don’t know where to go with this one and usually I can figure something out. I’m at a loss.
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Post by JohnH on May 12, 2022 17:35:23 GMT -5
As a strategy for dealing with the customer and managing expectations, how about starting with one of the standard diagrams for Freeway switches, that do a lot of the wish list, and then make a small adaptation to get a little closer? (not sure what) eg this one has a lot, but no series between pickups: www.freewayswitch.com/schematics-toggle/see the last diagram for 3x3-03 model, schemes with 3 pickups. Better make sure the shafts of those switches go through an LP top, unless you already know. |
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Post by frets on May 12, 2022 18:39:24 GMT -5
That’s a good idea. I’m also going to see if he’ll go for Matt’s idea of the Triple Shots.
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Post by Yogi B on May 12, 2022 19:57:12 GMT -5
I am woefully inexperienced with the black beauty in all its different forms. Also I should've stated the Number 2 isn't a black beauty, I was just expanding on JohnH's point about the Jimmy Page mods whilst trying to illustrate that although Gibson did make a Jimmy Page black beauty, it is a very different guitar than the one with the archetypal "Jimmy Page" wiring. Sorry for making that unnecessarily confusing. Damn, I shoulda thought of that (since that's what I did on my own guitar to get the JP options without going overboard on the push-pulls), too bad it sounds like it'll be unacceptable. He’s adamant about the switch having B+M+N. And he wouldn’t pay for the triple shots. Sorry, I’m not trying to be negative I just have to accomplish this with straight ‘ol wiring. I don’t know where to go with this one and usually I can figure something out. I’m at a loss. Do you know where he stands on the distribution of volumes & tones? One master volume & three tones would certainly make it easier to avoid some of the difficulties of dealing with 2 volumes. For instance: the typical wiring for a freeway switch is to have B / B+N / B on the first three positions as per the basic LP wiring; the other three are B+M / B+M+N / B+M, where the middle pickup is put directly in parallel with the other pickups (this isn't an issue in the outer positions, as you just get the single volume controlling both pickups), meaning that in the B+M+N position you link both pickups and the volume controls giving the interactivity between volumes you'd expect from a Les Paul but without the actual blending. (Whereas, this obviously wouldn't be an issue with only a master volume.) Similarly, if not three tones, then a master volume plus some kind of series blend might possibly work (and have the advantage of using the pot itself for series tones, meaning you could use the push/pull part for something else). |
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Post by thetragichero on May 12, 2022 23:26:57 GMT -5
hmmm if one can figure out how to divvy up two tone controls a volume for the middle pickup and one for the switch output could use a standard three way switch. volumes would have to be wired like a jazz bass
i personally am a fan of fewest switches possible. i certainly can get option paralysis and eventually just need to play the friggin guitar instead of fiddlin' with the controls
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Post by JohnH on May 13, 2022 2:06:16 GMT -5
Actually this one.....  I think it seems to scratch all the itches and has some of everything, if not all of everything ie, HHH, 4 knobs, coil splits, series and parallel, phase, with a Freeway And its all drawn out - so Yogi doesn't have to spoil his weekend by inventing it. Although it could probably do with a vet check. John |
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Post by Yogi B on May 13, 2022 5:42:40 GMT -5
Actually this one..... I think it seems to scratch all the itches and has some of everything, if not all of everything ie, HHH, 4 knobs, coil splits, series and parallel, phase, with a Freeway And its all drawn out - so Yogi doesn't have to spoil his weekend by inventing it. Although it could probably do with a vet check. It's mostly fine, but there's some pretty nonsensical grounding, plus a few changes I'd probably make anyway. The way the neck and bridge tone controls are wired directly to ground despite the neck & bridge being the 'upper' part of the series stack, means that when in series whichever of those two pickups is deselected will actually be blended in PHOoP with the middle pickup via decreasing its tone control. Though this could be interpreted as a feature rather than a bug, there's not a reason it has to be this way and since there's no mention of it on the diagram I can only assume it's unintentional. The same thing carries over the the Neck + Bridge volume, which (again when in series) would function as a second master volume control. Also note that at present the neck + bridge volume is wired backwards, but the only real advantage that gives is allowing for the middle pickup alone when in parallel mode. However if one were to fix it to work as a blend in series mode, then we could get middle only via that method instead. Theoretically one may choose to fix the volume wiring but leave the tones as is, but at that point the resulting circuit would no longer be a series-parallel configuration and alas it's the wrong time of day for me to figure out what the implications of this would be. The other changes I'd make would be to move the neck & bridge coil splits to the same switch freeing up a switch for the middle pickup. I'd also think about swapping the phase switch to be the middle pickup, because that just feels right. There's also the question of which coil splits to use: choosing the same coil for bridge and neck (e.g. South) and dissimilar (North) for middle has the advantage that (Bs + Ns) × Mn is hum cancelling. However I'd also be somewhat tempted to have bridge and neck dissimilar to allow e.g. Bn + Ns to be humbucking; and, in order to maintain hum cancelling in (B+N)×M, put the middle in local parallel rather than splitting it. |
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Post by newey on May 13, 2022 7:02:51 GMT -5
I'd also think about swapping the phase switch to be the middle pickup, because that just feels right. Symmetry and all is nice, but the B - N will be the most useful OOP sound IMO. |
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Post by frets on May 13, 2022 13:51:27 GMT -5
I really appreciate all the input and thanks for the diagram. I will do as Yogi suggested and do a dual coil split with a middle coil split. I am going to make the modification and float it by the customer. I think he will be fine with it. Thanks again!
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Post by JohnH on May 13, 2022 16:47:02 GMT -5
Yes I agree that the Freeway diagram could do with a bit of GN do-over! It's a good starting point though, for considering what should do what and where, and on an LP, it's a feasible set of controls.
Many of us have our favourite concepts for wiring an HH LP. I like tones and volumes hardwired to the pickups so they follow them into series mode, for indeoendent control and optimum loading. I like coil cuts to be separate for N and B, either as switches or using the tone pot. All personal choices though.
There's another whole simple concept for an HHH design, where you decide that M need only be combined with sat, B, or all three NMB, but forgo N and M as a separate combo. Then, you build whatever is your favourite HH LP scheme with bells + whistles (eg, a JP version), and then use the Freeway to drop M directly in parallel with B, or not.
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Post by Yogi B on May 13, 2022 20:50:30 GMT -5
Theoretically one may choose to fix the volume wiring but leave the tones as is, but at that point the resulting circuit would no longer be a series-parallel configuration and alas it's the wrong time of day for me to figure out what the implications of this would be. This is the simplified version of that circuit in the N × M position: At full volume you have N × M & the tone working normally; and at zero volume you have just M, but lowering the tone introduces N in PHOoP. The question is: what happens between those points? You'd get something between those extremes — but it's tough to categorise because, as I said, it's no longer a series-parallel circuit. I personally wouldn't hate this, it gives functionality you otherwise wouldn't have, and gives some tone shaping capability to the selection of middle only (which would otherwise have none). The biggest incongruity is that (omitted from the above image) the bridge tone control would also be doing the whole PHOoP-blend thing, which feels kinda wrong in what is supposed to be a neck and middle position. |
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Post by JohnH on May 14, 2022 21:18:34 GMT -5
Yes I agree that the Freeway diagram could do with a bit of GN do-over! It's a good starting point though, for considering what should do what and where, and on an LP, it's a feasible set of controls. Many of us have our favourite concepts for wiring an HH LP. I like tones and volumes hardwired to the pickups so they follow them into series mode, for indeoendent control and optimum loading. I like coil cuts to be separate for N and B, either as switches or using the tone pot. All personal choices though. There's another whole simple concept for an HHH design, where you decide that M need only be combined with sat, B, or all three NMB, but forgo N and M as a separate combo. Then, you build whatever is your favourite HH LP scheme with bells + whistles (eg, a JP version), and then use the Freeway to drop M directly in parallel with B, or not. This is just to continue my train of thought.... The freeway switches come in standard and Ultra types. The Ultra looks to be more generally versatile and may be more useful for working to this brief. The Ultra looks to be electrically equivalent to a four pole six way, ie 4P6T, where the common poles are connected into two pairs, left and right. Then, through the internal mechanical cleverness of the switch, the 6 positions are put into a 2 x 3 layout. So, based on that, and if it was mine, Id start with a JHJP, wired up per the latest diagram for neck and bridge, with volumes and tones moving with the N and B pickups into series mode, so you can adjust N and B separately within the series setting, and with phase on the bridge and coil cuts to each pickup, all optimized for hum-cancelling. One half of the Freeway Ultra (say the left side) replaces the standard toggle. You get N, NB, B all in series or parallel in or out of phase Then flicking over to the right side, M is switched in. M would be grounded at one end and the hot end would join with B hot or N hot. So now you get BM, BMN and NM in parallel. In series, you get a couple of series-parallel settings (B+M) x N and (B x N) + M , all with phase change on B and coil cuts. Need to decide whether M gets coil cut on a switch with with B, or with N. All of that seems very close to the brief and is not a big step from a known design, |
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Post by Yogi B on May 14, 2022 23:22:11 GMT -5
The freeway switches come in standard and Ultra types. The Ultra looks to be more generally versatile and may be more useful for working to this brief. The Ultra looks to be electrically equivalent to a four pole six way, ie 4P6T, where the common poles are connected into two pairs, left and right. True, but as far as I can see the non-ultra is sufficient for the scheme proposed in your post. What exactly are you proposing for the middle position? Presumably either: bridge & middle directly in parallel into the bridge volume then all that in parallel with the neck & its volume; or the other way around (neck & middle directly in parallel into the neck volume then all that in parallel with the bridge & its volume). There are, however, two other options: as in a lot of the stock freeway diagrams, connect middle hot directly to both bridge hot & neck hot — as previously noted in parallel that has the normal disadvantage of two dependent volumes but with absolutely no facility to blend the pickups, additionally this won't play nice with series mode; a better alternative would be to connect middle hot directly to the output jack — in parallel mode this has the advantage of providing a way to dial in a middle-dominant tone (by slightly reducing both volumes) and also proves to have utility in series mode. In the 'neck and middle' position, since we'd be connecting the middle hot to neck hot, the (B×N) + M combination would look like the following (omitting tone controls & bridge volume): Look familiar? It's a variation on the previous image I posted & suffers from a similar feature. With the neck volume at full, you do indeed get the promised (B×N) + M, but reducing the volume to zero doesn't simply yield B + M, but rather B + (M × −N). That's unfortunate, but mostly I think it's an argument for wiring the middle pickup directly to the output jack in the middle position as discussed above. This would then provide a 'correctly' functioning (B × N) + M selection in the 'all 3' position and the alternative quirky version in the 'neck and middle' position. There might be a way to get all three of (B + M)×N, (B×N) + M, B×(M + N) but that would almost definitely require having pickup(s) hanging from hot. |
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Post by JohnH on May 15, 2022 0:15:00 GMT -5
That's all true. I reckon in the middle position, Id suggest to put M with B, and let them both be controlled by the Bridge vol and tone. That way, the odd 'Easter-egg' settings are just in one position of the 6 way, and only if series is engaged. And I reckon there's some interesting tones to find there with all of the controls active.
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