klon

[unreg]

Hi 👋


It seems this guy spent 8 years making his Klon Centuars by hand on a card table in apartments.


About Bill Finnegan:
www.premierguitar.com/gear/bill-finnegan-klon

He also created a Klon KTR. That seems excellent, but is also not made anymore?


A video that introduced me to klon (has real audio from a Centuar; compared with StewMac’s Klone):


That Klone does NOT sound exactly the same, to me at least.

note: That’s a m.youtube.com link so am unsure if it will work on non-mobile.

---

Has anyone used a Klon? Mr. Finnegan tested all of the parts he used by listening to them. That seems pretty cool!

[unreg]

Maybe everyone else knows about klon already? Sry, but I’m still interested if any of you have used a klon. I bet not though; it wasn’t listed in the favourite pedal thread.

[thetragichero]

we're silly with klon clones. all shapes and sizes (i am a big fan of the tone city mini pedals because they're their own pcb, unlike some brands that are just repainted mooer/donner). excellent tool, used one every week at church in combination with an ocd-style overdrive so i had several different drive tones (individually or both at the same time) available. certainly plays well with other drive pedals which is a plus in my opinion, as i like having a bunch of options available instead of one high gain pedal

the hype of the original is more about rare/hard to get than better tone... it's based around a couple of friggin tl072 op amps so certainly not super obscure components (unless you believe nonsense about auditioning thousands of different types of germanium diodes, which i don't)
one big improvement would be to have a rail-to-rail cmos op amp instead of the second tl072. in my own breadboard experiments that had no noticeable difference between the stock build and allows one to do away with the whole charge pump circuit which, besides having a tendency to whine/be noisy also fails absolutely SPECTACULARLY (ie with fire) when powered with more than 9vdc (i don't like that, every pedal i make is usable at 12v if not higher. sometimes it's nice to have the option especially if that's the only tap you have left open on your power supply like mine )

[unreg]

May 26, 2022 19:12:30 GMT -5 thetragichero said:

(unless you believe nonsense about auditioning thousands of different types of germanium diodes, which i don't)

I do believe that; he spent 8 years making them and has a picture of his testing equipment in that ^first link. Not trying to change your mind… but, just explaining why I believe him.

May 26, 2022 19:12:30 GMT -5 thetragichero said:

one big improvement would be to have a rail-to-rail cmos op amp instead of the second tl072. in my own breadboard experiments that had no noticeable difference between the stock build and allows one to do away with the whole charge pump circuit which, besides having a tendency to whine/be noisy also fails absolutely SPECTACULARLY (ie with fire) when powered with more than 9vdc (i don't like that, every pedal i make is usable at 12v if not higher. sometimes it's nice to have the option especially if that's the only tap you have left open on your power supply like mine )

Wow, really sweet that your pedals don’t require 9v!

[unreg]

May 26, 2022 19:12:30 GMT -5 thetragichero said:

one big improvement would be to have a rail-to-rail cmos op amp instead of the second tl072.

Hmmm… maybe I’ll try this… am supposed to receive ^that StewMac Klone very soon.

That Klone is an assemble it myself type pedal. Will be really cool and fun to try building my own pedal!


My question is: where should a rail-to-rail cmos op amp be purchased from?

www.digikey.com/en/videos/r/rohm-semiconductor/rail-to-rail-input-output-high-speed-cmos-op-amps

That site lists two, a 1 circuit and a 2 circuit. Guess a 1 circuit should be purchased, since it’s for one pedal circuit?

[thetragichero]

you linked an smd op amp which i don't think you want. you want dip8 packaging
www.digikey.com/en/products/filter/linear-amplifiers-instrumentation-op-amps-buffer-amps/687?s=N4IgjCBcpgbFoDGUAuAnArgUwDQgPZQDaIATAJwAsADAMykgC6eADilCAMroCWAdgHMQAXzwBaBtBDJI6bHkKQSAVibDRZYiBQAbRKVKwGjYUA

if you try this out do NOT want to populate the charge pump and its surrounding components. you will need to connect the op amp's pin 4 to ground and pin 8 to the 9v supply voltage. this op amp is only capable of 16v max supply
you would be replacing the second op amp (the one the tone control uses)

[unreg]

Thank you thetragichero so much!

Umm, do you have a recommendation as to whether I should get the TLC2262AIP, TLC2262CP, or TLC2262IP? I tried looking at the details, but it’s massive details… thought maybe you may already know the difference.

[thetragichero]

i'd get whatever's cheapest. for what we're using op amps for (big amplification until guitar go BRRRR) most of the specs aren't all that important

looks like the only difference is operating temperature... the cheapest one is good from 0-70*C. i doubt you'd be operating it colder or hotter than that

[unreg]

Jun 15, 2022 21:09:26 GMT -5 thetragichero said:

looks like the only difference is operating temperature... the cheapest one is good from 0-70*C. i doubt you'd be operating it colder or hotter than that

I chose the AIP one bc 0°C==32°F and so maybe I’ll use it on a winter day when it’s below freezing.

[EDIT]^Ah, sigh, I bet all the other parts that StewMac sends will have their own temperature ratings; not going to look them up… though, all of StewMac’s components are to spec on the klon centuar; so, like you said, not going to use the pedal in a below freezing room. [/EDIT]




Thank you so much thetragichero! This is going to be very interesting.

[thetragichero]

where are you planning to use an overdrive pedal that is below freezing? even growing up in my frugal old man's place it was 60*F inside in the winter
get me in below 32*F weather and i'm not thinkin about playing guitar

[newey]

Jun 16, 2022 8:21:24 GMT -5 thetragichero said:

get me in below 32*F weather and i'm not thinkin about playing guitar

Yeah? Check my avatar!

[unreg]

Jun 16, 2022 8:21:24 GMT -5 thetragichero said:

where are you planning to use an overdrive pedal that is below freezing? even growing up in my frugal old man's place it was 60*F inside in the winter
get me in below 32*F weather and i'm not thinkin about playing guitar

True, true. It was only a few cents more so I felt better safe than sorry… now that part, the op amp alone, will survive in -40°F weather. 😎🥶

[thetragichero]

it's only a few cents so it really doesn't matter

[unreg]

Jun 15, 2022 18:35:58 GMT -5 thetragichero said:

if you try this out do NOT want to populate the charge pump and its surrounding components. you will need to connect the op amp's pin 4 to ground and pin 8 to the 9v supply voltage. this op amp is only capable of 16v max supply
you would be replacing the second op amp (the one the tone control uses)

So by "do NOT populate" you mean NOT to install the charge pump and its surrounding components?


Here is a terrible pic of the PCB and breakout board:



Yellow == TC1044 charge pump
Blue and Light Purple == TL072

The Treble pot is in the center... fits in the three holes to the north east of the blue circle. (The far west holes are the Gain pot and the far east holes are the Output pot.) So is the blue circle connected to the Tone pot?


So, I just insert my TLC2262AIP into one of the Integrated circuit sockets soldered into the blue and light purple circled spaces, run a wire from its pin 4 to the output jack's sleeve, and run a wire from its pin 8 to one of the 3 lugs on the DC jack?


Or maybe pin 4 is already connected to ground? Maybe I can determine that ground connection with my multimeter after the circuit is finished. I've just read the Instruction Guide, but they don't explain which Integrated circuit socket connects to which pot. Though, I'm now leaning toward that the yellow circle is for the Gain pot, blue for Treble, and light purple for Output.


I'm sure you can easily figure this out, but if you can't for some reason I'd be ok with installing the charge pump.

[thetragichero]

you have the build docs? i don't want to mislead you here

[unreg]

Jun 16, 2022 20:56:12 GMT -5 thetragichero said:

you have the build docs? i don't want to mislead you here

I totally understand you thetragichero.

Since my op amp is on its way, I’m going to turn the PCB over and see exactly what TL072 the Tone pot is connected to.

I’ll try to figure as much out as possible… and report back… and if the coming op amp isn’t used for some reason, that’s ok 👍 it was really cheap

[Yogi B]

thetragichero: StewMac's docs can be found online here: Ghost Drive - Instruction Guide PDF

Unfortunately there's no schematic in that, but since the StewMac kits are rebranded PedalPCB boards the schematic in the build docs for their Kliché Overdrive should be compatible.

---

unreg: also while it's now definitely a bit late, and though having not played either myself, in demos I've generally preferred the distinct though similar Maxon OD-820 over the Klon.

[thetragichero]

build doc isn't as easy to follow (for our purposes) as some of the other companies. i'm going to link a big png of a klon, although the part designations are likely different: www.electrosmash.com/images/tech/klon-centaur/Klon-Centaur-Schematic-Parts.png
you're wanting to find which is the summing/tone control op amp. easiest way is to find out which op amp has the 392k and 820pf across pins 1 and 2. that's the op amp you'd want to replace. then leave off the charge pump and connect pin 4 to ground and pin 8 to 9v, either running jumpers from the other op amp's pins 4 and 8 or tracing a closer point

[thetragichero]

here this should do it
don't populate ic3 d4 d5 c18 c19 c20 c21 (component numbers from pedalpcb build guide)
cool thing is that if you don't like it, you can clip your jumpers, install the charge pump and related components, and put a tl072 in the ic2 socket


thanks for the assist, Yogi B

[unreg]

Jun 16, 2022 23:11:27 GMT -5 thetragichero said:

here this should do it
don't populate ic3 d4 d5 c18 c19 c20 c21 (component numbers from pedalpcb build guide)
cool thing is that if you don't like it, you can clip your jumpers, install the charge pump and related components, and put a tl072 in the ic2 socket


thanks for the assist, Yogi B

Wow! 😀


Thank you thetragichero and Yogi B so much!

tth, I didn’t realize you wanted me to post the build doc so you could look at it bc as you said, it doesn’t contain a schematic… that’s why I attempted a pic… but it is 500 width (maybe 600 pixels width would have worked and so would have been more clear).

FINAL-EDIT: And, actually, I’ve never ever assembled a complex electronic device, like this, from parts… other than reTrEaD’s soldering iron lamp dimmer temp reducer… so I didn’t know about schematics being available in build documents. Was clueless; but, thank you all for teaching me this!

[unreg]

Jun 16, 2022 23:11:27 GMT -5 thetragichero said:

here this should do it
don't populate ic3 d4 d5 c18 c19 c20 c21 (component numbers from pedalpcb build guide)
cool thing is that if you don't like it, you can clip your jumpers, install the charge pump and related components, and put a tl072 in the ic2 socket


thanks for the assist, Yogi B

thetragichero, did you purposely NOT list d3 as one of the diodes to NOT populate? It’s just that d3 IS one of the surrounding components to ic3… I’m just curious and so wanted to ask before populating d3.


Also, would it be wrong to install the Integrated Circuit Socket into ic3 and just DON’T populate that integrated circuit socket with the charge pump?

[Yogi B]

Jun 23, 2022 23:17:44 GMT -5 unreg said:

thetragichero, did you purposely NOT list d3 as one of the diodes to NOT populate? It’s just that d3 IS one of the surrounding components to ic3… I’m just curious and so wanted to ask before populating d3.

D3 is the overvoltage / reverse voltage protection (Zener) diode (for the entire circuit), so should definitely be installed.

Also, would it be wrong to install the Integrated Circuit Socket into ic3 and just DON’T populate that integrated circuit socket with the charge pump?

Not necessarily wrong, no. As such, my main consideration would be physical spacing: whether installing it now would later make populating the other currently omitted components more difficult; or conversely, if not installing it now would mean its own pads were partially obstructed later (e.g. the output volume pot blocking access from the top edge). Neither of those is really an issue here, so either approach possible.

[unreg]

[EDIT]Thank you Yogi B a ton! [/EDIT]



Installing the Integrated Circuit Sockets is next on the list. But, I need a jumper to ic2… and so, can the jumper wires be installed underneath the PCB?

The instructions say that all soldering should be done on the soldering side of the PCB. And, now it makes sense that I’m going to install the jumper wires on the soldering side, so more solder on that side wouldn’t be bad, right?


In StewMac’s pedal building video, part 4, it turns out that the PCB will be “floating” inside the case, so the jumpers underneath wouldn’t be a problem, I think.

[thetragichero]

yeah you'll be fine

[unreg]

Hi all. I finished/completed the GhostDrive pedal build; I previously reversed the two positive wires to the power switch, and after being instructed by Tommy S. at StewMac, my pedal’s light turns on and my tone sounds more amazing! thetragichero, I understand why you used your klon clone so much!

But, also my pedal makes lots of buzzing noise, even while the great tone is being created. As the knobs are turned up the noise also increases (if the knobs are turned to minimum, there is no sound at all, which is normal I guess). Tommy S. in email reply to a pic of your diagram post said:

“That was not a good idea. You removed all the DC filtering from the circuit when you bypassed the power section…”


So, thetragichero, do you agree? Alternately, is there a way to add the DC filtering to the current circuit you recommended? I’m just trying to understand; sry, don’t mean to blame any troubles on you. You were attempting to help. It’s fun learning! 🙂

[thetragichero]

methinks your stewmac helper guy doesn't know how to read a schematic or misinterpreted the diagram? +9vdc supply is filtered by r27 and c17 (although i usually use a 220uf instead of the 47uf they used that shouldn't make much of a difference here). +4.5vdc supply is also filtered by r25 and c22 in addition to the rc filter from the +9vdc supply
are you running this off of a power supply or a battery? if it's a power supply, that might be your issue (in which case try a battery to rule that out). other things to rule out are a different guitar, different cables, different amp if possible. if none of these help maybe take some internal pictures and we can see if anything stands out

[unreg]

Jul 6, 2022 22:29:47 GMT -5 thetragichero said:

are you running this off of a power supply or a battery? if it's a power supply, that might be your issue (in which case try a battery to rule that out).

Thank you.

[EDIT]Was running this off a power supply. Used a battery after reading your reply thetragichero and my results follow…[/EDIT]


This is weird, the battery removes the buzz from the signal while I’m touching the strings. However, the pedal sounds tons better, tone-wise, when using a 9V power supply.

So, what does that mean? Is my soldering on the jacks not great?


The cable is high quality and somewhat new. The amp is pretty new. I can attempt my bazz bass guitar; that guitar hasn’t been edited by me.

[thetragichero]

is your battery fresh or close to dead? that may account for tonal change
are you standing in front of a computer monitor, tv, led light, etc? is your cell phone in your pocket? guitar pickups make fantabulous antennae for these sort of noise sources, especially when you're running through a pedal that increases the signal level of your amp by a bunch
there are many things that can result in unwanted noise including human error so the more variables you can change to rule em out the better chance you'll have of tracking down your issue

[unreg]

The battery was fresh. There are now two led lights on the ceiling; I think they were off. But, I’ll change things and see what happens later today; thank you so much!

[thetragichero]

i learned the hard way (by wiring my old house for led lights including my studio) that led lights and monitors can cause noise with gain, even with something that's usually dead quiet like active pickups