klon

[unreg]

Jul 8, 2022 18:33:13 GMT -5 thetragichero said:

i learned the hard way (by wiring my old house for led lights including my studio) that led lights and monitors can cause noise with gain, even with something that's usually dead quiet like active pickups

So, do you use regular lights now?

My led lights were off and I moved my cellphone to the other side of the room (it had been charging and I was standing with my guitar over it during yesterday’s reported test).


Gain @ 11, Treble @ 5, Output @ 6 [EDIT]See posts below[/EDIT]. (StewMac instructions said to start the knobs, after each pot shaft had been rotated fully counter-clockwise, pointed at 7. That’s what I did.)

With the power cord plugged in (i.e. without the battery) the buzzing was very faint while touching the strings; the tone was extremely clear/detailed.

With the power cord unplugged (i.e. with the battery) the buzzing was absent while touching the strings; the tone was kind of not detailed… like playing with a toy guitar. Maybe that’s bc I was using the same battery as last night. Also, the battery was purchased at H.E.B., a supermarket; is an H.E.B. battery. Duracell would be tons better for my tone detail?


Have to go for right now, sry.

[newey]

Your multimeter works just fine as a battery tester. Set the meter to volts and check to see that you're getting 9V. Any 9V battery should provide 9V when new, whether it's a Duracell or whatever will only affect how long you continue to get that 9V.

[unreg]

Thank you newey; my H.E.B. battery measures 9.34V

Jul 8, 2022 22:01:22 GMT -5 unreg said:

Gain @ 11, Treble @ 5, Output @ 6. (StewMac instructions said to start the knobs, after each pot shaft had been rotated fully counter-clockwise, pointed at 7. That’s what I did.)

8o why… sigh, I must have thought of the clock face wrong while initially pointing the knobs’ points; they all start at 10, NOT 7.

[EDIT]Ok ok, now all of my knobs start at 7! 😀 Now, they make much more sense… will have to post another knobs setting tomorrow when I can test the pedal again.[/EDIT]

[unreg]

Now, with Gain @ 8:30, Treble @ 11, and Output @ 1:

when power jack is connected (i.e. battery NOT used) = excellent tone with quiet buzz while touching the strings

when power jack is unused (i.e. battery IS inside+connected and should be used) = the power light doesn’t turn on; so, tomorrow I’ll test continuity on black and red wire from battery connector, and then include the plugs (that wrap around the 9V battery terminals) in those continuity tests?


Removing the battery was rough last night; I bent the new battery connector part a bit while trying to remove the battery.

[unreg]

Jul 9, 2022 21:48:10 GMT -5 unreg said:

when power jack is unused (i.e. battery IS inside+connected and should be used) = the power light doesn’t turn on

Multimeter testing was 100% successful. I tried plugging in the output input cable while the pedal was open (just to see how the cable tip looked when inserted) and now I’ve learned that that stereo output pot input jack IS new AND that it takes a bit of force to fully insert the output input cable.

So, now the battery powers the pedal again bc the output input cable is fully inserted. 👍👍


The pedal continues to provide a slight buzz, when the power jack is connected, that’s evident all the time; regardless of me touching the guitar strings. I even unplugged my lamp that uses an LED light bulb. I’m unsure how to fix this… maybe I’ll post pics, in a bit, for you all to see the pedal insides.




[EDIT]ooh, maybe my battery slightly adjusts the tone detail bc both solder spots, that attach the battery connector’s red and black wires, return a continuity test of 0.2?[/EDIT]

[unreg]

Jul 6, 2022 18:31:01 GMT -5 unreg said:

Tommy S. in email reply to a pic of your diagram post said:

“That was not a good idea. You removed all the DC filtering from the circuit when you bypassed the power section…”

thetragichero, this is the diagram I sent Tommy S.:

Jun 16, 2022 23:11:27 GMT -5 thetragichero said:

It’s not a schematic right? (I was just thinking about this last night and discovered my schematic confusion. How could someone find DC filtering looking at that diagram? Maybe Tommy S. just was misinformed?)


My pedal works wonderfully now! Thank you all! I should send some pics today bc the quiet buzz is still present when sending my pedal 9V through its power jack. (It works “wonderfully” bc I’m thinking that DBX Noise Reduction would prevent that quiet buzz from being recorded.)

[unreg]

Do you have any preferred angles of photo?

I can prepare an old photo I took of the underside of the pcb board if you would like to see that too.

Black cable of the battery connector is shorter due to cable edit.  After rearranging that black cable on a previous day, today was an excellent 9V power cable test with the quiet buzz vanishing as long as my hands touched the strings! That's a first.

But, with the Gain and Output knobs turned higher, the buzz becomes louder as soon as my hands leave the strings; and during play the buzz is non-existent, but as the sound fades buzz can be heard.

[thetragichero]

I'm guessing the noise you're experiencing is noise from the guitar that you weren't able to hear before because you weren't amplifying the signal as much. not hearing it while playing is the clue that it's not inside the box

if you want you can download an app that can tell you what its frequency is which can clue us into where it's coming from (around 60hz is likely from ac wiring in your house. higher frequency can be from many sources: lighting, electronic equipment, wifi, etc). how well is your guitar shielded?

glad to hear it's sounding good

[unreg]

The buzz freq is around 2100hz. There is a router in my room; it provides WIFI for our house. Maybe the wifi is the buzz source? Hmmm… guess I could disable its WIFI and see what happens to the buzz.


Edit: Oh, my guitar’s electronics cavity has been painted; the shield cables grounding is totally separate from the signal cables grounding until they join at the jack’s ground, as ashcatlt recommended; my star ground is not a real star ground since the star ground travels through Floyd rose/strings before reaching jack’s ground.

Only the electronics cavity has been painted. The other cavity with Floyd rose hasn’t been painted.

[unreg]

Actually, with both 2.4 and 5 ghz WIFI off, the buzz becomes at a tad higher pitch and is read around 2900hz.

[unreg]

Alright, I completely shut off the router (pulled its power) and now the buzz is around 2000hz or 2200hz. The buzz is still present… same volume, so the WIFI isn’t the buzz culprit, right?

[thetragichero]

seems like that's the case. as someone who has played in quiet environments (like churches), a buzz that was mild and only appears when the strings/bridge aren't touched wouldn't piss me off.... but i'm also a guy who anchors his picking hand on an instrument's bridge so it mostly wouldn't show up and if there was an extended time of quiet i'd either click the pedal off or toe up on my volume pedal to completely mute

[unreg]

Thank you thetragichero! Glad guitar buzzing isn’t our WIFI’s problem. But, it must be something. Here’s where I may loose, but could it be the electrical panel’s fault? Would it be helpful to run a grounding wire from the metal boxed electrical panel, that’s directly on the other side of my wall’s electrical outlet for my amp? Should it already have a grounding wire? I can check tomorrow.

[newey]

It should already be grounded, and is unlikely to be the source of your noise anyway. Electric motors, fluorescent lamp ballasts, neon signs, CRT monitors- these are "the usual culprits"

Have you tried playing with it elsewhere, to see if the noise is replicated in a different (electrical) environment? Different amp, different guitar, different cables, different room (i.e., on a different electrical circuit). It's a process of eliminating all the potential variables.

[unreg]

newey, thank you.

My amp plugged in inside the other side of our house gives a much quieter buzz. (Same guitar, same pedal, same cord).

But I used my battery, instead of the power cable, to power my pedal.


Afterwards, I tested my amp plugged into its home outlet again, with the same gear, and the battery powered version of my pedal sends an almost silent buzz reaching 37.4 decibels. WITH the power cable: my pedal has a buzz of 42 decibels coming from my amp.


So, the change of room didn’t make much of a difference; rather, the change resulted from whether or not my pedal is powered with a power cable.

Maybe the volume of my amp just drowned out the buzz earlier before thetragichero determined that my pedal wasn’t causing the buzz?

[unreg]

Hi all…

My pedal is about the same now, whether powered by a 9V battery or powered from the wall!


Van, the organist at our church, reminded me about ground loops and that they cause hum/buzz. Since I used an extension cable over to a second outlet on my wall to power my pedals, he said a ground loop may be present. He encouraged me to use only one outlet.

Well, I had to rearrange my power strip, but now all of my guitar sound is plugged into that power strip AND now, my pedal receiving power from that same (the same as my amp and other guitar sound items) outlet, returns a reading of 37db!


Sadly, I was forced to reuse my extension cable to plug in my pedals into my powerstrip. Maybe I could find a powerstrip with the outlets rotated 90°… then that would allow me to stop using that old extension cable. (The 90° rotation would allow each of the wide plugs to fit great!) Some buzz is still present when turning my pedal’s knobs really high.

[unreg]

So, tonight during no air conditioning and no monitor on, my pedal, powered by the wall, gave a 37db reading. Then I unplugged the wall power to use the 9V battery and the amp buzz increased to 42db. And, I plugged the wall power back in and the buzz decreased a bit to 40db.

Does removing the 9V wall power, while the pedal is ON, mess something inside up? So, I turned the amp off, then replugged the wall’s 9V, and turned the amp back on. That gave a slightly less buzz of 39db.

Finally, I turned both the amp and pedal off and reinserted the wall’s 9V, turned the amp and pedal on again, and the buzz decreased to 37db.


The buzz, when measured at 43db, is at freq 1027hz. My new power strip with sockets rotated 90° should be here tomorrow.

[b4nj0]

Very late to this party. I have read through both in the Proboards Android app and now using a web browser too, but there's a lot to take in and digest.

In the photo of the internals, I see an insulated DC socket. The Klon schematic shows the "ground" connection immediately after the voltage enters the enclosure, but the internals photo seems to show the "ground" lead heading off to the PCB, connection to the case then being via the PCB and the input output sockets. This is a classic "Pin-1 problem" (google) I'm guessing this is why an insulated DC socket is used because no one wants rail voltage on the case, but whomsoever it was started the habit of centre ground coaxial ought to be on here defending his or her brainphart. Although happily the noise issue seems to have largely gone away, I would still short the centre "ground" to the case really close to the point of entry inside the case with insulated wire, and while I'm at it I'd decouple the rail voltage to the same point inside the case, again sleeving the capacitor's legs.

Also, just a thought- a multimeter will of course show the battery or cell voltage and I do it all the time, but whenever I do, in the back of my mind is the certain knowledge that it tells me zilch about the battery or cell under load which is where we actually expect it to perform ... those cutesy pads on Duracells that you touch to read the state of charge are in effect using skin/body resistance to gauge the cell's capacity under load.

[unreg]

Jul 29, 2022 4:10:58 GMT -5 b4nj0 said:

Although happily the noise issue seems to have largely gone away, I would still short the centre "ground" to the case really close to the point of entry inside the case with insulated wire, and while I'm at it I'd decouple the rail voltage to the same point inside the case, again sleeving the capacitor's legs.

So, I should attach a wire from the ground lug of my insulated DC socket to the case, and also attach a wire from the rail voltage lug on my insulated DC socket to the same point on the case?

If so, then I’d be joining ground and rail voltage? And I should sleeve a capacitor’s legs? Joining rail voltage and ground would NOT be wrong bc the rail voltage is grounded away from the circuit? Ground will not travel back to the rail voltage lug? (I’m trying to learn. )

Thank you b4nj0!

[unreg]

Jul 29, 2022 9:24:15 GMT -5 unreg said:

And I should sleeve a capacitor’s legs?

Could you specify which capacitor? And shielding the legs wouldn’t be easy bc I cut most of the leg-area off after soldering the caps.

Jul 29, 2022 9:24:15 GMT -5 unreg said:

Joining rail voltage and ground would NOT be wrong bc the rail voltage is grounded away from the circuit? Ground will not travel back to the rail voltage lug?

Ahh! What? Ground doesn’t travel; it’s a destination… so, I believe I understand better now.

[b4nj0]

Rule of thumb for me would be a 470nF to 1uF from incoming socket live down to case. Since it's on a DC line there is no *toan* issue from introducing such capacitance. You may need a little ring solder tag under the insulated socket's retaining nut otherwise connection to the diecast case would maybe be problematic. I built a compressor from a kit more than ten years ago now (The ParaNormal) and writing this has prompted me to revisit that wiring! A disc ceramic capacitor would be fine and I tend to err on the side of higher voltage rated examples because the legs are more stable. If the legs are short enough (and they should be!) sleeving won't be necessary. Really really don't short +ive rail to "ground" directly anywhere, especially directly as a result of me assuming that you understand what I mean with throwaway comments like "decouple". Since you already have the noise thing sorted, what I suggested while good practice is not mandatory, but may prevent other problems arising in other locations or use cases, or as a result of some other interference cropping up close to or inside your home. Finally, there are much better informed contributors on here than myself, just sayin'!

でつ e&oe ...

[unreg]

Jul 29, 2022 15:03:37 GMT -5 b4nj0 said:

If the legs are short enough (and they should be!) sleeving won't be necessary. Really really don't short +ive rail to "ground" directly anywhere, especially directly as a result of me assuming that you understand what I mean with throwaway comments like "decouple".

Your “+ive” is supposed to be “live”? If so, then I understand you. I previously thought you wanted me to sleeve a capacitor already in my GhostDrive.

I’ll buy a capacitor with a higher voltage rating, so that its legs will be thicker. I know where to buy capacitors now!

The capacitor makes the live rail NOT directly connected to ground. That’s really cool!

And maybe I have an appropriate capacitor in my GhostDrive box that wasn’t used… I’ll check there before buying a new capacitor.


And actually I don’t understand your “decouple”. Before my response was posted I learned that decouple is like separating bc couple is like joining.

Thank you for your help b4nj0! I’m going to try this; it doesn’t seem to hard. And note: thetragichero liked your post, so it IS a good idea. 👍

[b4nj0]

Yeah that was kind of what I was intimating and @tradg is not alone on here! I only "know" some of these "things" because of other interests unrelated to guitar wiring, and although I make lots of electrical (and electronic things- there IS a distinction!) here at home, @tradg "walks the walk too" so to speak.

"Decouple" is a term used to describe bleeding off unwanted higher frequencies on a signal by taking advantage of the capacitor's ability to pass them to so-called "ground" while isolating the DC component, kind of like selectively assisting entropy! Basically, we are using a capacitor in this instance as a filter. Hence inside your Klon clone we can connect between live and "ground" safely FOR AC using a capacitor <of an appropriate voltage rating> while the wanted DC is unaffected. The unwanted AC (noise) sees a potential divider and takes the "easier" route to "ground" where it comes to an abrupt halt. Theoretically.

We could just as easily "Couple" (as distinct from Decouple) those high frequencies TO the next stage in (eg) an amplifier thereby blocking any DC component present, and that as interstage Coupling is common practice too (as @tradg knows). Again it is using the capacitor's characteristics as a filter. It only needs to get complicated (needing equations for theoretical objectivity) if you start to query how high is high (and I'm guessing you're wondering about that ...) This is why I began with the statement "Rule of thumb" because those values are a time proven good starting point for us tinkerers, but they are not set in stone.

でつ e&oe ...

[unreg]

Jul 29, 2022 15:03:37 GMT -5 b4nj0 said:

A disc ceramic capacitor would be fine and I tend to err on the side of higher voltage rated examples because the legs are more stable.

Hmmm… I have extra 1 microfarad (uF) capacitors. They are 50V and so the legs are stable. Though, is this a ceramic disc capacitor?:

(It’s shape is pictured on page 11 of the StewMac GhostDrive manual <with 100uF written on its surface>; linked by Yogi B earlier in this thread; sry, I can’t post a pic right now; if it’s NOT a ceramic disc capacitor, would whatever type this is work anyways? I need to purchase a solder tag that fits under the DC jack’s nut; so if I need to buy a 1 uF ceramic disc capacitor too, that’s ok. 👍)

[thetragichero]

take a picture of your extra capacitor(s)

[unreg]

picture (these are all the unused GhostDrive 1uF 50V capacitors):

[thetragichero]

all of those are electrolytic so i wouldn't use em. whatchu got for guitar tone caps?

[unreg]

Ummm… no, I have no extra guitar tone caps. Thank you thetragichero! I’ll get one… or 2 or 3 different ones since b4nj0 gave me a base 470nF - 1uF?

[unreg]

Jul 29, 2022 15:03:37 GMT -5 b4nj0 said:

Rule of thumb for me would be a 470nF to 1uF from incoming socket live down to case.

…

A disc ceramic capacitor would be fine and I tend to err on the side of higher voltage rated examples because the legs are more stable.

Is this a disc ceramic capacitor? It doesn’t look round to me:

www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/walsin-technology-corporation/0402X474K500CT/9354870

And, 470nF == 0.47uF right?

According to pg.11 of StewMac’s GhostDrive manual: .001uF = 1nF = 1,000pF
So, I think the math is correct; just wanted a second opinion since I’ve not done this before (digikey doesn’t use nF).

[thetragichero]

that's an smd cap. about half the size of a grain of rice (if not smaller). you want through hole parts