kingarex
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Post by kingarex on Jan 24, 2023 1:34:30 GMT -5
Ok... let me start by saying, Yes... I know this is a knockoff Ibanez and "you get what you pay for" and I was fully aware that I might end up with a turd, but I've wanted an Iceman with the J Yuenger stars since I first saw one in 1997 and I dreamed of owning it in red, with a floyd rose... Turns out, They dont exist. Yuengers are green only, and cost $2k to $6k. I've found 2 genuine Iceman's with Floyds on them that I considered respraying, but they both sold before I could. So I said screw it and ordered this thinking, if it's unplayable, it will still look cool on my wall. I bought it, got it home 4 days later and immediately tore out the pickups and put in Jackson H.O.'s as well as replaced the knock off floyd with a genuine I had lying around. It all went well, and believe it or not, aside from my issue, it does sounds really good. It claims to have a mahogany body and neck, and I am not familiar with mahogany to confirm so who knows. It plays well, pickups sound awesome but I'm noticing that the neck (set neck) seems to respond to pressure and pull more than any of my bolt on's or neck throughs and I'm wondering if it's normal for a set neck or iceman style, or if its a weak/crappy glue job at the joint, or weak wood, or whatever. I've never owned a set neck guitar so I have no basis of comparison. When I'm playing it seems to be constantly a little bit out of tune, but never in a predictable or consistent way. I ruled out accidental bends due to light strings, action issues, Floyd mobility etc.. It's definitely the neck bending back a hair. I've seen guitarists torque the neck on purpose to add vibrato to an open string on an acoustic and it behaves just like that, but it does it when I'm playing spiritedly or up near the head. It also has string buzz at the first 4 frets which gets worse when pressure is applied to the neck. I ordered a straight edge to check to see if it's just a warp, but all signs point to the neck joint not being vice tight.
That being said, what can be done? I just bought 3 guitars and had 2 more repaired and tuned up at my local luthier this week so I'd rather not run up another bill, plus he isn't the type to chat and offer advice, It will be short call ending in "yeah it's junk, throw it out" which may be wise, but I'm very mechanically inclined and this is the perfect guitar to learn on. Obviously the neck and back of the body are painted so I have no visual or physical access to the joints to check them or service them. I could see a little bit when doing pickups but I wasn't aware of the issue at that time.
Knowing that it's probably not worth the money to have a pro dive into it, How would you proceed if it were yours?
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Post by pyrroz on Jan 24, 2023 4:05:58 GMT -5
Ok... let me start by saying, Yes... I know this is a knockoff Ibanez and "you get what you pay for" and I was fully aware that I might end up with a turd, but I've wanted an Iceman with the J Yuenger stars since I first saw one in 1997 and I dreamed of owning it in red, with a floyd rose... Turns out, They dont exist. Yuengers are green only, and cost $2k to $6k. I've found 2 genuine Iceman's with Floyds on them that I considered respraying, but they both sold before I could. So I said screw it and ordered this thinking, if it's unplayable, it will still look cool on my wall. I bought it, got it home 4 days later and immediately tore out the pickups and put in Jackson H.O.'s as well as replaced the knock off floyd with a genuine I had lying around. It all went well, and believe it or not, aside from my issue, it does sounds really good. It claims to have a mahogany body and neck, and I am not familiar with mahogany to confirm so who knows. It plays well, pickups sound awesome but I'm noticing that the neck (set neck) seems to respond to pressure and pull more than any of my bolt on's or neck throughs and I'm wondering if it's normal for a set neck or iceman style, or if its a weak/crappy glue job at the joint, or weak wood, or whatever. I've never owned a set neck guitar so I have no basis of comparison. When I'm playing it seems to be constantly a little bit out of tune, but never in a predictable or consistent way. I ruled out accidental bends due to light strings, action issues, Floyd mobility etc.. It's definitely the neck bending back a hair. I've seen guitarists torque the neck on purpose to add vibrato to an open string on an acoustic and it behaves just like that, but it does it when I'm playing spiritedly or up near the head. It also has string buzz at the first 4 frets which gets worse when pressure is applied to the neck. I ordered a straight edge to check to see if it's just a warp, but all signs point to the neck joint not being vice tight. That being said, what can be done? I just bought 3 guitars and had 2 more repaired and tuned up at my local luthier this week so I'd rather not run up another bill, plus he isn't the type to chat and offer advice, It will be short call ending in "yeah it's junk, throw it out" which may be wise, but I'm very mechanically inclined and this is the perfect guitar to learn on. Obviously the neck and back of the body are painted so I have no visual or physical access to the joints to check them or service them. I could see a little bit when doing pickups but I wasn't aware of the issue at that time. Knowing that it's probably not worth the money to have a pro dive into it, How would you proceed if it were yours?
Hi!!! welcome, until our Luthier Dept director Cyn1 shows up, I'd like to ask you.
What are your guitars measurements : general specs, and more specifically : - scale length (e.g. 25.5", 24.75", 25", 27" etc) - string gauge (and brand)
- action height at the nut, high E, low E, with 3rd fret fretted (it should be a hair)
- action height at 12th fret high E, low E
- action height at 22th fret high E, low E
- neck relief , with fretted 1st and 22th frets in both high E, low E, measure the clearance between the strings and around the center (it should be 8th fret)
Then,
- does your truss rod respond to adjustments ?
- Can you make your neck move without any pressure from the heel towards the bridge? (or minimal, so that set-in joint not to be part of this test)
- Do you see any cracks around the suspected poor set-in joint
and finally
PICTURES PICTURES AND MORE PICTURES!!
PS I dont buy the junk mindset, judging from the country of origin or site. I got two bodies from aliexpress just a couple of months ago, the second one is kinda off specs, it needs work to make the schaller floyd fit. The first one tho, is a dream, I have it on my No1 parstcaster (which I shamelessly baptized as : Aria).
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Post by newey on Jan 24, 2023 6:38:58 GMT -5
kingarex- Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!pyrroz asks good questions, we need to be sure we've correctly identified the issues. When you say "set neck", I assume you mean the neck is glued to the body, as opposed to a neck-through design. If so, my first, off-the-cuff thought was to get a neck plate and 4 screws and bolt that sucker on there. But let's let others weigh in here.
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Post by cynical1 on Jan 24, 2023 7:46:32 GMT -5
Ok... let me start by saying, Yes... I know this is a knockoff Ibanez and "you get what you pay for" Yeah, well Ibanez started out by knocking off Gibson, so it seems like turnabout is fair play... Country of origin, as pyrroz noted, is not indicative of quality. The species of wood used, proper drying and the care in construction typically does, though... Part of the cost on a signature guitar is the name on the endorsement. The other part is how much extra work does the assembly line require to build...and it goes up significantly once the build moves to the custom shop. They know there are a certain number of players that will mortgage their house to get one...how else could Sky Guitars sell guitars for north of $30,000.00... So, if I understand you, it's not complete firewood. That's good. On any used guitar...or guitar of questionable origins, I assume all of the electronics and most of the mechanical components are candidates for the landfill. You appear to be on the right track... Don't feel bad, mahogany isn't familiar with you, either... Sorry, a little luthier humor... Mahogany is one of the best woods to build a guitar out of. It's stable, close grained and takes any finish you choose. There are three species generally accepted as genuine. They look like this:  Honduran Mahogany (Swietenia macrophylla)The other two are Mexican and Cuban mahogany. You can't get those readily anymore, in fact, you can't get Cuban mahogany at all anymore (legally)...as they're either restricted from import...or just gone... Most likely, if you're lucky, it's made from African Mahogany.  This is the defacto "good enough" choice when all the other mahogany is gone, restricted...or priced through the stratosphere... That's the upside. The downside is that there are close to a dozen species palmed off as mahogany...but that doesn't make them mahogany... It doesn't make them useless, just not mahogany. It's like alder. There's alder from the Pacific Northwest in the US, then there's Asian alder...which isn't the same thing...regardless of what the marketing department may say... If there is no cracking of the finish at the neck joint, it's probably not the glue joint. If there is...well, that's not uncommon in Gibsons either... I'm not certain what you mean by "seems to respond to pressure". I'm guessing it's flexing, but I'm still a little fuzzy. If I was betting money, my guess would be a mahogany "knock-off" that wasn't properly cured before it was worked. This accounts for most of the cheap guitar issues I've seen over the past few decades... It's not so much a regional issue as it is a desire to keep costs down and compete in the low end side of the market. It's not that important for the body, but it's night and day for the neck. Could be a truss rod issue, too. Has a proper setup been done on this guitar? Neck movement is bad, regardless of construction. It isn't a design flaw...more of an execution flaw. Intonation? Is it set and correct? Have you checked the scale length? I have seen some random dimensions employed over the years...and a difference between tremelo systems and saddle placement. Once the straight edge arrives you should be able to diagnose the issue. There are a few other things to look at, but it would be wise and prudent to evaluate exactly where you are before we start trying to fix things. It's a bit too early to start down that path. I hear symptoms, but not having it in front of me tends to make me hesitant to offer ideas...the enemy of good is better... Well, he's eating better this week... Much of what I do these days is "guitar rescue". I buy up used, abused and neglected instruments...or parts of the aforementioned...and try and make them playable. I started out that way...and have come full circle after nearly 50 years. Any guitar is fixable. How much of the original remains depends largely on how much care went into building it. How much it costs is also directly relatable to the same criteria. I may tell you the same thing. You can fix any instrument. Throwing $500.00 at a $100.00 guitar is normally considered a tipping point... Well, we can certainly test that premise... The next question is how are you sitting for tools? This is likely to create some sawdust. If you could see the wood while swapping pickups, there likely is little to no shielding. Sounds right. Not really a price point guitar feature. Not having it in front of me begs two questions. Where did you buy it and how much did you spend? I get the impression that you won't lose any sleep if this guitar is a total loss. That being the case, sure, let's see what we can do with it. If it's unplayable now, how can you make it worse? It seems pyrroz has taken the pebble from my hand and already asked you all the questions I would have asked. Fill in the blanks he gave you and upload a few pictures. Oh yeah, what string gauge do you play on this guitar? The worst thing that happens is you make a wall clock out of it... Happy Trails Cynical One |
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Post by cynical1 on Jan 24, 2023 11:43:18 GMT -5
While looking for something else, I found this. And since it's after the fact...  This guy on Facebook put a Floyd Rose FRX on an Iceman. As long as you get the Iceman model with the tailstop and bridge it should work...just sayin'. I didn't read much, as I typically feel like showering in bleach whenever I click a Facebook link...but feel free to follow the link to Facebook at your own risk. HTC1 |
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kingarex
Rookie Solder Flinger
Posts: 14
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Post by kingarex on Jan 24, 2023 11:55:25 GMT -5
I am absolutely ASTOUNDED at these replies. Awestruck even. I've been a member of various boards from Chevy's, to Hotrods in general, Gunsmithing, music production... Hell I'm even an admin of an animal rescue site. And NEVER have I seen such unanimous support and genuine care given to a newb. Thank you all so much. Truly. I expected much more dismissal and Judgement.
I was going to quote and respond, but every damn sentence you guys wrote is pure gold so I'll try to get the high points out of the way (Gun pun).
I don't have string gauges or other precision measurement tools. They are in the mail. That being said, I can tell you that the finish is perfect. NO cracks of any kind anywhere and the neck pocket and surrounding areas are no different. Newey mentioned putting a plate on the back and running it down with 4 bolts, and that was my back up plan, I do think that will do the job, but again this is a perfect opportunity to learn and go through the work.
What are your guitars measurements : general specs, and more specifically :
- scale length - When measuring, I went from where the string exits the saddle hole, and measured up to where the string enters the nut and it was 25"
- string gauge - Ernie super slinks 9-42
- action height at the nut - For the time being, I don't have a fine enough tool to measure action accurately. "Kentucky windage" says it's consistent but until I can get a gauge in there, who knows.
- action height
- action height
- neck relief
I tried to post pictures but there's no attach button paper clip thing, and I don't know what a postimage is....
"Much of what I do these days is "guitar rescue". I buy up used, abused and neglected instruments...or parts of the aforementioned...and try and make them playable." This statement is precisely what I'm here for. I don't plan to open a business or steal food from luthiers, I just want to troll craigslist save guitars from the burn pile. That being said, I do my own engine and suspension work, I build and hone my own long range rifles, and I do my own electrical wiring (Barring home electric) so I'd like to be able to do my own musical maintenance and intermediate work someday while still knowing when to throw in the towel and call a pro when needed, but again it's a no name guitar so better to learn on this than my neckthrough Kelly X or my 85 Kramer Berretta as Those are worth something now.
I studied the wood post that cynical1 made (Huge shout out for that in depth lesson, loved it) and from my work as a wood lathe hobbyist I actually understood your Alder reference! And I can say with fair certainty that this is Honduran as the grain structure is very straight and almost "dotted" lines. It's VERY light weight.
To reiterate and further explain my description of neck movement, I'll say that there isn't any visual movement at the joint, but when I (Exaggeratedly speaking) "Pull back" on the neck (like pulling the guitar toward your body) the pitch will rise and buzzing will occur. Neither of my Jackson Kellys do this (One is a bolt on Js32 and the other is a Neckthrough KEXQ) Again I've never owned a set neck guitar which I know this is because the neck pickup hole exposed the heel of the neck and it clearly ends, and additionally there are no visible screws on the back.
I have several pictures ready and a high def camera if someone can spoon feed me on attaching photos
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kingarex
Rookie Solder Flinger
Posts: 14
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Post by kingarex on Jan 24, 2023 12:03:31 GMT -5
One additional comment, I haven't done the intonation yet, I don't have a floyd tool but will order soon. I could use a screwdriver to pull the string back as needed but I don't want to damage the saddles. I could set them all to the rear and adjust forward as needed but I can't think of a home made way to slowly ease the saddles forward....
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Post by newey on Jan 24, 2023 12:18:27 GMT -5
if someone can spoon feed me on attaching photos ProBoards has strict limits (unless we want to spend $$$) on attaching files to posts, so we don't enable that anymore. So, you need to upload your images to a host before inserting the images BBC code in your post. There are two ways to do this using the buttons on the reply window (unless you want to use some other image-hosting service) 1) You can use the "Postimage upload" button. Click on the button, then upload your image to that site. It will then drop your image into your post whereever you left your cursor 2) You can use the Cloudinary site, by using the "CLoudinary Upload" button to the right of the "Postimage upload" button. But first, you have to go to the Cloudinary site and set up an account. It is free to do so. Then you upload the image from your computer to Cloudinary and it drops it into your post. Most Staff members and long-time users here use Cloudinary, it'a a better option and also allows for posting not just images but sound files, etc. Here's the formal tutorial from our "Forum info" sub-board. The "postimage upload" button has changed since that post, but it still works the same way. guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/8198/new-instructions-on-image-posting |
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Post by cynical1 on Jan 24, 2023 13:25:16 GMT -5
I am absolutely ASTOUNDED at these replies. Well, thank you. We try. At least we like to see you keep all of your fingers. From the rest of your post I get the impression that you are no stranger to spending money on tools...within reason, of course. This will go a long way towards how much you learn and can accomplish. Not necessarily right away...but you get the idea... That's good. Really, some of the new " latest signature" guitars from a major builder have cracks...in the showroom... Whoa. If there is no finish cracking...which if you DID could indicate substrate cracking...but since you DIDN'T that suggests you have no substrate cracking...so why would you reinforce an area which you have just determined to be solid? I'm not ready to get the drill out on that one just yet. I'm gonna stop you here. In your other post you note: "One additional comment, I haven't done the intonation yet" It is the sound of one hand clapping to look at anything until you can set the intonation and check the neck relief. This could very well just boil down to a bad setup from the factory. Go figure, huh... Well, there are support groups for people like that...they never helped me very much, though... Let me offer a few tips on finding sacrifices candidates for the pile. Guitar shops. Not the big box guys, but the small guys. They always have to take a trade in to sell something new...and not all of them are in mint condition. You can score these for $50.00 sometimes. eBay used to be full of parts and candidates, but Reverb seems to have taken the crown. Estate Sales can be very good, but get there early. I missed a $2500.00 Guild fretless bass by 30 minutes...it sold for $350.00. Offerup is fair. I tend to stay away from Craigslist... Another thing is...you have to have something to start with. By this I mean, limit your adventures to builders that at least know how to butcher wood. Yamaha is my first pick, Ibanez is usually reliable, the older Peavey USA stuff is typically good...but USA only. By the time Peavey began outsourcing overseas they had executed all of their QC people... Fernandes is a hit of miss. I like the older Aria stuff, too. I look for something at least 10 years old...20 preferably. The reason for this is simple. By the time I get it the wood has moved everywhere it's ever going to move on its own. This way I can be reasonably certain it's not going to move on me. As far as wood goes, if you stick to the list above...and learn to check for plywood...the standard offerings of basswood, alder, poplar and maybe ash or mahogany are more than suitable vehicles for upgrades and experiments. I will ask you one question: How many truss rod adjustments have you done...and how comfortable are you with doing them? This thing does have a truss rod, right? OK, two questions... HTC1 |
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Post by cynical1 on Jan 24, 2023 13:49:05 GMT -5
I forgot this earlier. To determine intended scale length, measure from the edge of the nut to the middle of the 12th fret. The intended scale length is double that. Be advised, it might be metric...it might be old money...
HTC1
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Post by newey on Jan 24, 2023 16:08:58 GMT -5
Let me offer a few tips on finding sacrifices candidates for the pile. Don't forget pawnshops. The price on the tag is just a starting point for negotiation. If I see something I like but it's too much, I'll let it sit and go back 3-4 weeks later. "Gee, I see you've still got that thing taking up space on your wall . . . ". Then renew your offer. And, kingarex- cynical1 is our resident expert on this sort of stuff, so he'll steer you right on this. |
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kingarex
Rookie Solder Flinger
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Post by kingarex on Jan 24, 2023 18:55:37 GMT -5
Understood!
From the neck side edge of the nut to the center of the inlay on the 12th fret is exactly 12" so apparently it's a 24" scale.
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Post by cynical1 on Jan 24, 2023 19:59:33 GMT -5
Understood! From the neck side edge of the nut to the center of the inlay on the 12th fret is exactly 12" so apparently it's a 24" scale. I should have explained that better. It's not the center of the inlay, it's the center of the 12th fret  These are the most common examples...there are more, but I'm guessing your guitar is either 25.5" or 24.5" Gibson Scale:24.500" = 12.2500" At CENTER of 12th fret - Typical24.625" = 12.3125" Fender Scale:24.000" = 12.0000" 25.500" = 12.3750" PRS Scale:25.000" = 12.500" Again, this is academic at the moment...at least until until you have the toys to set the guitar up. Ain't this fun? HTC1 |
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kingarex
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Post by kingarex on Jan 25, 2023 0:26:13 GMT -5
Oh its fun, i'm really enjoying it.
UPDATE: I'm retarded. That is all.
No but seriously, I went back and checked it out and the truss rod was too tight and I forgot to put the floyd saddles in order. That helped a lot, but problem still persists.
23.75" seems like a really small scale
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Post by pyrroz on Jan 25, 2023 2:55:03 GMT -5
To reiterate and further explain my description of neck movement, I'll say that there isn't any visual movement at the joint, but when I (Exaggeratedly speaking) "Pull back" on the neck (like pulling the guitar toward your body) the pitch will rise and buzzing will occur. Neither of my Jackson Kellys do this (One is a bolt on Js32 and the other is a Neckthrough KEXQ) Again I've never owned a set neck guitar which I know this is because the neck pickup hole exposed the heel of the neck and it clearly ends, and additionally there are no visible screws on the back. There are guitars which retain their stability from the wood primarily aided by the truss rod, and others which depend primarily on the truss rod and secondarily on the wood. My Carvin (neck through) is the "truss rod" type. I can pull the neck and make it buzz easily. Also this is the most prone to seasonal changes and requires setup more often than others. |
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Post by pyrroz on Jan 25, 2023 3:10:47 GMT -5
Oh its fun, i'm really enjoying it. UPDATE: I'm retarded. That is all. No but seriously, I went back and checked it out and the truss rod was too tight and I forgot to put the floyd saddles in order. That helped a lot, but problem still persists. 23.75" seems like a really small scale
So whats the scale? Also do you have a tuner? If its a floyd, and a cheap one, cheap locking nut, you might have issues there. So. String up the guitar with NO locking pads in place, tune and play the guitar normally , no huge bends no dive bombs, no pull ups. Make sure that by normal playing it stays in tune. Then pull the neck to make it buzz for a moment. Then wait some seconds and re-measure. Has the tuning changed? Are you still on pitch?
If yes, your neck joint is fine. Don't get obsessed by set-in, bolt-on, neck-through, they should all stay in tune. If you had a problem in the action would skyrocket.
Another test, you say truss rod is tight, ok, adjust it to your favorable setting and then change strings with 10s. Adjust trem springs and truss rod a little bit to set it up correctly. If there was a crack in the neck joint, or poor glue wood work, by the greater string tension, the guitar would hold the extra tension and the action would increase with ever bend you make. Floyd makes it harder to debug - diagnose due to the nature of the beast. Is your Kramer floyd'ed? do you know about setting up the floyd? Make your floyd springs are unstable. Floyd Rose is a &^%%. From your posts (not owning intonation alens) it seems you are just starting with Floyd Rose, right?
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Post by pyrroz on Jan 25, 2023 5:06:01 GMT -5
Understood! From the neck side edge of the nut to the center of the inlay on the 12th fret is exactly 12" so apparently it's a 24" scale. These are the most common examples...there are more, but I'm guessing your guitar is either 25.5" or 24.5" Gibson Scale:24.500" = 12.2500" At CENTER of 12th fret - Typical24.625" = 12.3125"
Hi Cyn1!, isn't it more like 24.75" in standard common SGs and LPs?
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Post by cynical1 on Jan 25, 2023 5:48:09 GMT -5
Hi Cyn1!, isn't it more like 24.75" in standard common SGs and LPs? Yes they are...according to the catalog. YMMV CRS is a terrible thing... HTC1 |
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kingarex
Rookie Solder Flinger
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Post by kingarex on Jan 25, 2023 11:07:16 GMT -5
No i'm very familiar with floyd rose and ibanez style double lockers. I have 6 in total. I haven't used the intonation tool yet because I always had a ghetto way of doing it before. But I have evolved lol.
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Post by cynical1 on Jan 25, 2023 11:44:54 GMT -5
Yeah, Floyds do some cool stuff...but they are a high maintenance device at times... Pyrroz has more experience with these things from a "daily driver" perspective. As I recall, you leave the nut unlocked during setup, then lock it and do your fine adjustments from the bridge. I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong.
Take your time. Read, watch videos...whatever you need to do in order to get that thing intonated. You need a baseline to start diagnosing anything, so feel free to check the neck relief, too...when the tools are no longer in transit...
You guitar players...man, I have to physically lean into the horn and neck to get vibrato on a bass...I never broke one, though...but it does wonders for the neck joint...
HTC1
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Post by pyrroz on Jan 25, 2023 14:51:42 GMT -5
Hi Cyn1!, isn't it more like 24.75" in standard common SGs and LPs? Yes they are...according to the catalog. YMMV CRS is a terrible thing... HTC1
CRS = ? point is as I read my comments I make so many mistakes ... age is a b1tch!
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Post by cynical1 on Jan 25, 2023 14:54:38 GMT -5
Can't Remember Sh_t At least I make new friends everyday... HTC1 |
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chudbot
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Post by chudbot on Oct 18, 2023 21:05:15 GMT -5
Just curious, but did you ever get tje tuning stability issue solved? If so? How does it play now? Been looking at picking up one for these for years but I've always been afraid to pull the trigger on it.
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