Fret gone flat

[Deleted]

Hi, just coming from this guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/7086/naturally-cause-wear-on-fret , it seems that my problem is not so much in the height of this fret (high-E 12th fret) being low, but rather in the fact that it has developed a flat surface on this. What is a little confusing is that this is a new guitar, i bought right out of the factory box, completely unplayed (it was when i returned the previous one due a faulty tail-piece : guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/6548/frets-blues-tight-tune-shim ), so for a guitar 1.5 years old, i find this kind of odd to have happened. Sure, I play (like most rock guitarists) a lot of E, and a lot of bending around E especially in the higher register, but 1.5 year seems too short of a period. I also play A, at 5th and 17th fret a lot, but i saw no particular flatness or wear to develop there.

The problem is not severe, nothing i can't live without, however, first i am puzzled as to how this might have developed, and second, i think about getting it crowned somehow. What would you guys recommend ?

[Deleted]

Here are some close ups :





In the second one I think it is more apparent. I think this is some pretty worn fret/frets there for a guitar only 1.5 yrs old

[ux4484]

If it's not affecting your playing, don't worry about it. If it is, get thee to a luthier, It'll be faster, cheaper (in the long run ), and less heart wrenching than if you try to do it yourself.

[Deleted]

Thanx Ux, if you have been following my lutherie adventures you'd know i am not the kind of person to think twice about getting into action . From what i remember, I think this particular one would be a piece of cake to crown and polish, using various techniques. The thing is this : only 1.5 year?. I am going to luthier for a refret when due. I gotta postpone going to the luthier as long as possible. I refretted my first guitar after (admittedly not continuous playing) 28 years.. This one...

[ux4484]

Many of the frets are flat on my Yamaha acoustic especially for the first four strings, but it doesn't affect the playability yet so I haven't messed with anything more then polishing them with 001 grade steel wool... And that's after nine years of continuous playing.

[Deleted]

GRRRR i just lost the message i was writing you....
in short Indo-made guitars (Yamaha acoustic??) have exceptional fret-wire (and over all quality).

[Deleted]

i found this : cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=171250666347&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en
This looks the best from the ones i checked + it seems to address the problem of eating too much metal while crowning. Also it address the problem of fretboard radius by providing a narrow block right from the start that will do any radius.

I also checked this "Neck Check" : www.ebay.com/itm/Fret-Repair-Kit-2-pcs-Fret-Sanding-Board-Fret-Crowning-Tool-/251295724414 . And also this : www.ebay.com/itm/Guitar-FRET-LEVELING-DRESSING-CROWNING-KIT-Fret-Refinishing-Luthier-Tools-/111290451278?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item19e96d854e the infamous "Thomas Ginex" kit, and also the buzz-off kit : www.amazon.com/J-S-Bogdanovich-Guitars-Buzz-Off%C2%AE-Leveling/dp/B003WRG9SK

I like the first better. Seems more straight to the point.

Normally i would do this "my way" both the leveling and the crowning, but neither does the radii match (between my block and the ibby in question) (well i am not going for fret leveling, i am just mentioning this), nor do i feel absolutely comfortable doing to a 700 EURO ibby what i did to a 75 EURO neck back in the scalloped partscaster days.

My method involved basically all the essential methods for leveling, and then the "sweep picking" method using a rubber pointy eraser and ~400+ grit sandpaper. As it run over the frets, caused a "bump" making the top rounder.

Well, in the case of the ibby i am going for more "professional" approach. I have boiled it down, that i need no leveling (hmmmm don't i??), so i am only going for crowning.

I recall that this particular 12th fret in the photo, made great impression to me, cause it would not clear up no matter how high the action would be. So crowning here is the remedy. Lets see.

[Deleted]

Did some of the old classic triangle file method. I just marked the top of the fret in order not to touch the metal over there, and just did the sides. The result is this :



Plays much better now. Almost indistinguishably from the neighboring frets. One thing that gets me into thoughts as i look at the above pic and also the ones in the older posts above, is that i see a flatness to many of the frets at all strings, like the 13th fret, which i can only attribute to poor fret work at the factory, since i am 100% certain i did not play that much those particular frets. (hey how many of us bend like mad on the A or D string on 13th fret?). Also, i am pretty sure that the problem with high E fret 12, was there from day 1. I remember it was the only note that i was sure i didn't like on this ibby arz800, vs the previous arz800 which i had just returned due to the faulty tail piece.

Now the theory that this thing was there from the factory gains space. It seems they did some leveling at the factory in China, but did a poor crowning job. Well, better than nothing! But this means i will have to go for a full crowning. It is a very lovely sounding guitar (maybe the best among all guitars i had), so its a pitty not to deliver 100%.

Moral of the story : relatively cheap guitars made in China (600-800 $) (like Ibanez Artist series and the Ibanez iron label in general) might be really good, but still need some work.

So i am still between :

1) Neck Check : www.neckcheckguitar.com/fret%20crowning%20guitar%20repair%20tools.html
2) Thomas Ginex : www.fretrefinishing.com/
3) Bogdanovic : Buzz-off : www.jsbguitars.com/guitar-making-products/fret-leveling-kit
4) gmc_handcrafted_guitars : cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=171250666347&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en&clk_rvr_id=595540355100

from the above, i think that the Thomas Ginex and Buzz-off is smth i can handle with the tools i already have. The sweeping crowning technique of Thomas Ginex is smth i can reproduce with school eraser gum of some pointy shape and sandpaper, while the buzz-off is equivalent to a DIY crowning tool.
So the interesting options is the "neck check" 1) and the GMC 4).

What do you guys say?

[Deleted]

My eye just fell on that one : www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Diamond-Fret-Crowning-File-35mm-2-5mm-concave-profile-file-TF080-/181157197101?pt=UK_Guitar_Accessories&hash=item2a2dcf752d
For once (due to the lovely sound of the Ibanez mostly) i will follow what uncle Cyn1 would recommend and not go cheap, go for the diamond fret crowning file. For the price of 50 EURO, this is equivallent of the trip to the luthier + the cost of gas. And it will be there for many fret dressings to follow. It hurts a little (the pocket) but it is a good investment i think. The other alternative is doing the work with the triangle file which requires more labour.

What i found interesting is this : Suppose a fret at some string buzzes. Or the tone is not so powerful. Then you raise the action. And you feel a little improvement. But not so much as you'd expect, since neighboring frets seem to have benefited a lot more by the raise in action. You keep raising the action and you see more improvement. Then you end up with a guitar which sounds "ok" but with enormous action.
What went wrong?
Simply the tops are flat. If a top of the fret is flat, IT WILL BUZZ at many low to medium action heights!
So do your hand and ears a favor and treat those fret tops!

[Deleted]

Finally , i couldn't wait so i hit the tools today. Not for the Ibby but for the older Kramer 210 which had a lot of punishing back in the early 90s but never a proper treatment. Needless to say this guitar was for about 24 years ... just wrong... This guitar had a low 10th fret right from the factory. I had no choice back then but to file this. I did it before i had any clue about basic guitar maintenance. The result was ... flat frets for 24 years! Today i thought of remedying this. Also i had to try this new crowning technique.

So, i tried the classic leveling technique with a 9.5" sanding block, and this worked ok.
Then for crowning i tried the sweeping technique along with a new tool that i built today. The sweeping was done with the rubber eraser and the sanding block cut to look like a pointy shape. All dressing job was done with 180 grit sandpaper which i found just right for the job. After the sweeping for some basic rounding, i then tried the new technique : stick a folded sandpaper into the slot, cut off any excess and then just fit the tool onto the frets and sand. I used some permanent marker to see how the crowning was going, and to make sure that the color fades away from the sides of the fret but not the top. I then finished with 600, 1000, 1500, 2000, 2500 grit sandpaper and finally polished with 0000 steel wool.

The result is this:

[newey]

Looks nice and shiny but hard to tell much from the photos. How's it play now?

[Deleted]

At first, i thought the notes were ringing louder. It plays ok. But some buzzes that it used to have are not gone, just slightly improved. It feels a little better as well. But i am afraid that some new buzzes were introduced especially in the higher-thinner strings, or could be my imagination. Its my fault that i didn't play it thoroughly before the fretwork and also didn't shoot any pics, to know the differences for sure. But it is true that the damage been done to it when i first got it, was so extended , and the frets in G,B,E from 11->22 gone that flat (60% tall of what medium jumbo are supposed to be), that little could be done to achieve a uniformity height wise, but also hard to round them as well.
The fact that some of the frets in high E play rather good (12th, 15th, 17th) which are very common frets, make me believe that the crowning went ok. But the leveling so and so. And i would not touch it again, as far as leveling is concerned. A re-fret would be a wiser move.
Overall, it plays a little better than before, which was not dramatically very bad to begin with. I think it was worth the try. I think the crowning trick with this wooden oven cleaner converted tool with the slot for the sandpaper works. But it requires so many sandpaper changes, that the process becomes too slow. If i was to do it again, i would go for a proper diamond file. Even if it is used once or twice it beats the price taking it to a luthier.

[Deleted]

Did three mistakes during the process :
1) did not check the neck (without the strings) for straightness (= big mistake)
2) used a sanding block of radius 9.5 (which i used back in the partscaster days), whereas this guitar has 12".
3) did not work on the highest frets as long as with the middle ones, leaving them a little high.

[Deleted]

I contacted some luthiers around my city today and the cheapest wants 150 euros (=205 USD) which does not seem reasonable given my amateurish status.
So i decided to redo the leveling/crowning this evening. I just did the 13th-22th frets. Checked for straightness and also did not use the 9.5" sanding block. I used a rectangle file about 15cm long. This time i went for the rapid sweeping with the rubber eraser and 180 grit sandpaper crowning method due to lack of time. I think it went fairly well. I think there is enough metal for many years of playing, no need for a refret.
So, since the guitar plays pretty good right now i am thinking of getting some nice diamond crowning file + some rectangular fret protectors, and do very carefully the frets of the Kramer 210 first. And if it goes well, then i will do the Ibby arz800. I will have two nice playing guitars + save about 100 euros, not bad!

[Deleted]

pulled the trigger for a crowning file and some fretboard protectors/guards. i'll revert with review.

[Deleted]

Redid the job on the Kramer 210, with the following differentiations :
- unscrewed/removed the nut, to make up room for working on the first frets as well
- completely loosened the truss rod to make up for some artificially generated relief
- lowered the pups, did not forget to work on the last frets equally long
- in addition to some "sweeping"/"picking" technique (as referred to by Thomas & Ginex method) for crowining, i used the new crowning file i got for some 30 euros.

Well, the results were better. I mean much better. No more extreme buzzing, even with low action. Equal tone/strength on almost all notes along the fretboard. This new crowning file proved to be the clue of the evening. Really effective and really fast to work on frets. Here it is. Also it is very shallow, can work even on ultra worn/short frets!!
Along with the complete electronics overhaul, i think this guitar has reached a very usable state. Very good.

I had submitted an electronic application to queue up in one of the country's best (but relatively cheap) luthiers for re-fret. (average waiting time : 2 months). I am thinking of cancelling this. The guitar is good already! It won't take another fret dress, next time fret work is needed, its gonna be a refret, but it will be long before it needs one, unless i play the thing for 10 hours a day... (hey here is where the GAS helps, playing a lot of guitars delays their due periodic maintenance!!!!). I just saved 150+ Euros (200 USD). I guess my wife will be happy, more money to spend on bills, organic food, etc... + i am kind of proud, since this is the first time i can say, that the fret dressing worked that well....

But hey, dont get me wrong, necks are peculiar beasts, without strings they never appear to be exactly the same as under normal tension, that is why all those expensive machinery were designed for. So, this simple fret dressing/crowning technique might cover your average low to mid-end asian axe, but maybe for professional work, better go to a luthier.