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Post by ourclarioncall on Mar 12, 2020 20:14:33 GMT -5
Tescobedo
Thanks for the info and link . I had a look around , a treasure trove of stuff in there , very interesting.
My problem is I’m too fussy and demanding 🤗 I’m not a fan of on-on-on or on-off-on switches , I like to have the solid and decisive flick of a double throw 😂
Saying that , Maybe I should give them another try . It could have been that the switches i used were cheap and the toggle had a flimsy unstable feel to it .
I recently purchased 4 different 4PDT switches to research and compare the quality and see at what point your spending too much money. One was about £2 and the others £4, £5.50 and the most expensive was close to £10 by the company Apem. Lot of cash for switches but if your going to build quality guitars you want solid and robust part that will last and that also have a certain feel about them .
So far I was quite impressed with The £2 ones. They had a more solid feel in the toggle (actuator ?) unlike the cheap Chinese ones that fall to bits if your a bit rough with them . Haven’t wired up the others yet but there is a noticeable difference in the feel of throw
Anyway , that was a bit of a long tangent /ramble
Oh yeah, my points - maybe I will try a few on-on-on or on-off-on switches at different price ranges and see I change my mind
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Post by ourclarioncall on Mar 12, 2020 20:41:31 GMT -5
I see you are struggling, ourclarioncall! You are evaluating combinations of B (bridge) and N/C (neck with added cap). Consider the following table: PIP/C sonically halfway between PIP and B -> Highs: B+N (PIP) Lows: B POP/C " " " POP and B -> Highs: B-N (POP) Lows: B SIP/C " " " SIP and B -> Highs: B Lows: B*N (SIP) SOP/C " " " SOP and B -> Highs: B Lows: B*-N (SOP) So how would I test? I would pick a cap and then do a sound check to find out if the /C combo sounds like somewhere in the middle. So for PIP/C I would evaluate PIP to PIP/C to B, is there a noticeable and smooth transition of the sound? BTW, PIP/C is a difficult case, I personally don't see much room between PIP and B for a new sound. 😂😂😁 struggling is the word my friend haha. Fortunately for me I’ve got the determination to lose a battle but win the war or the guitar might have ended up on the next bonfire 🔥😆 but yeah, my patience has certainly been stretched this last week or so I managed to wire up a half volume switch in the neck pickup and it seems to be working fine and a great addition to the palette of options. I will put in another one for the bridge too . Then I can demo some sounds in the parallel and series settings with one of the pickups on full volume and the other in half Thanks for the info, that’s really helpful, I have a bit of a sonic map now and hopefully won’t get so lost. My problem are either 1. There is something wrong with the way I’ve wired things up 2. I’m forgetting to bear in mind the info you gave me on certain sounds not working because of amp resistance etc or as you have just pointed out between PIP and B. Or 3. Both one and two What was weird again as I was testing was the CAP toggle switch was OFF , but I could hear it change the sound as I placed a cap into the speaker terminal. Also, with no caps in the terminal , when I put the cap switch on , it made a distinct change in the sound ?? but as I explored more , the sound it was making seemed to be identical to the bridge pickup on its own So at that point I just gave up and moved onto the half volume switches Anyway not sure what I’ll do next. I just bought some crocodile clips to use instead of the hifi terminal for a more secure bite on the caps legs as I’m not sure the hifi terminal is taking a secure hold each time. See if that helps. I might just rewire it again with fresh switches One other thing was that when I had soldered the caps to the switches on my earlier attempts they got very hot from the heat off the iron and was a bit concerned I had damaged them . So I have a few more new ones that will be attached to the crocodile clips and I can rule out there being any issue with the caps I’m using 22awg solid core wire and is great but there a few times I need to get three wires into one lug and it’s a bit of a struggle. I’m not sure if when solder the lug that the solder is getting good coverage over all 3 wires. Anyway just thinking out loud of any potential problems with the circuit I can rule out by paying more attention to them
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Post by ourclarioncall on Mar 12, 2020 20:58:41 GMT -5
Or, at least, be able to "speak schematic". I'm at best an apprentice at this stuff myself, but once you learn the language, it's like a whole new vista opens for you. It is one thing to follow a wiring diagram to get a desired result, and it is another thing to know how, and why, those things were set up in the way that they were. IOW, it's like the difference between painting by the numbers and channeling your inner Picasso. (OK, that's maybe a bit over the top, but you will have taken my point.) Indeed, i see the beauty in it , is like a language and an art form all at the same time. And there is a great reward for learning the language I actually tried to become an electrican but it didn’t work out as I was too old to fit into the education system here. But now I think it’s really more the electronic engineering side of things I want to understand as supposed to more “basic” domestic electrical stuff if you know what I mean. A school college brochure came through my door today with various electrical/electronic courses offered . Tempting
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Post by sumgai on Mar 12, 2020 22:28:31 GMT -5
.... A school college brochure came through my door today with various electrical/electronic courses offered . Tempting I don't know about the UK, but here in the USA, a large number of public schools will let you "audit" a class for little or no money. The idea is, you're just "listening in", and there won't be a grade issued after it's all over. Private schools being funded differently (no public support), the chances of not paying the full rate are much slimmer. But who knows - if you don't ask..... sumgai
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Post by newey on Mar 13, 2020 8:03:21 GMT -5
With 2 single coils, there are 6 distinctive combinations. Couple more if you want half out of phase. You can do it with a 6 position rotary switch like Bill Lawrence did with the L-6S. Lawrence used a 6 position 3 pole. A 6 position 4 pole can also be used with some alternative diagrams floating around. Add a SPST toggle for full/half out of phase. If you don't want a rotary switch, the six combinations can be had with two toggles: one DPDT ON-OFF-ON, and one DPDT ON-ON-ON. Again, add a SPST toggle for full/half out of phase. From DGB Studios now defunct site: tescobedo- Hello and Welcome to GNutz2! An interesting scheme, although with SW1 set to the center "off" position, you have redundancy on SW2. With SW2 connecting the lower lugs, Pickup 2 is on, but with SW2 in either the center position or with the upper lugs connected, Pickup 2 is Off.
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Post by reTrEaD on Mar 13, 2020 10:55:21 GMT -5
tescobedo- Hello and Welcome to GNutz2! An interesting scheme, although with SW1 set to the center "off" position, you have redundancy on SW2. With SW2 connecting the lower lugs, Pickup 2 is on, but with SW2 in either the center position or with the upper lugs connected, Pickup 2 is Off. newey , tescobedo The schematics on the DGB site were lovely in that they were truly schematics and extremely compact. In terms of quality of design, they ranged from very good to 'half-cooked'. In my opinion, the schematic we're currently discussing fits in to the latter category. It suffers from three notable flaws: 1 - The 'on' (series mode) selection of PU2 produces no sound if PU1 is off. 2 - The both pickups 'off' selection will buzz like swarm of bees in noisy EM environments. 3 - The series selection of PU2 with PU1 (out-of-phase) isn't actually a proper SHooP configuration. Instead of having a capacitor in parallel with PU1, the capacitor is in series with the two series-connected pickups. Of course, all of this is apparent if one looks closely at PU column of the selection table and the schematic. 2S34SW1 | SW2 | PU | Remark
| -1 | 0 | PU1 | Neck
| -1 | -1 | PU1+PU2 | Parallel
| 0 | -1 | PU2 | Bridge
| -1 | 1 | PU1xPU2 | Series
| 1 | 0 | -PU1xC2 | with capacitance
| 1 | 1 | (-PU1xC2)xPU2 | Out of Phase(Series) with capacitance
| 1 | -1 | (-PU1xC2)+PU2 | Out of Phase(Parallel) with capacitance
| 0 | 0 | None | Standby
| 0 | 1 | None | Standby
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0:Mid, 1:Down, -1:Up +:Parallel x:Series -:Out of Phase SW1:Out of Phase with capacitance, OFF ,In Phase SW ON-OFF-ON 6PMINI SW SW2:Series, OFF, Parallel SW ON-ON-ON 6PMINI SW C1:.047uF C2:.01uF
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Post by ourclarioncall on Mar 13, 2020 19:24:58 GMT -5
On a positive note, managed to wire up two of RT’s half volume switches now into the circuit and they seem to be working great 👍 so I am well pleased . Another step closer
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Post by ourclarioncall on Mar 14, 2020 17:04:02 GMT -5
Ok, update time , I don’t want to sound too confident just yet, but I think I’ve resolved all the strange issues I was having and everything seems to be working as it should be . I only have 0.1 , 0.01, and a 0.03 caps to experiment with at the moment but i suppose that covers a lot of the bases already. with the 0.1 , and 0.01 the sound changes seem very subtle at times and easy to miss, you have to listen really hard and test each string to hear variations . Having said that , I don’t think the cheap practice amp with about a 6inch speaker is helping to let me hear what is really going on. The 10” amp at work is a lot more revealing. There is now a new amp at work with a 12” speaker and open back cabinet that fills the room , which I assumed would give me more clarity but in the end it didn’t seem to. Seemed like the closed back 10” fender mustang modelling amp worked best. I may try the 12” again, crank up the volume a bit more . as well as the 2 new half volume switches I think it’s time to make some decent videos of clean and overdrive sounds
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Post by ourclarioncall on Mar 16, 2020 18:54:27 GMT -5
New video trying different cap values with all possible combinations including half volume switches. Quite please with some of the sounds.
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Post by ourclarioncall on Mar 17, 2020 6:56:18 GMT -5
I don’t know what happened at 17:00 mins onwards , but now I don’t know if something broke or something fixed. Now I don’t know if the sound before 17 mins were malfunctioning or if they were working as they should be
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Post by ourclarioncall on Mar 17, 2020 18:40:15 GMT -5
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Post by ourclarioncall on Mar 17, 2020 18:51:08 GMT -5
I seem to have discovered a problem today. Well, more of an awareness of it and possible understanding, which I would like some feedback on.
I am testing different cap sizes and taking them in and out of the circuit.
Here’s the problem. When the pickups are in series in phase (like the pic above ) and the cap switch is OFF .... and I then put the lower cap in or the higher cap , they both seem to become part of the circuit and I can hear it change quite clearly. It doesn’t matter if it’s the cap for the bottom parallel section or the upper series section. Then once the caps are in the circuit and I switch the cap switch to ON.... the cap seems to go OFF.
it doesn’t do this when I’m in parallel in phase. The cap switch seems to work as it should . It’s just the series side.
I did just recently swap 3 and 6 around on the cap switch and maybe this has introduced these new problems . The goal was to change the hoop switch to just a cap on of off switch ,and we did that by swapping 3 and 6.
In series mode I understand that the cap works by being in parallel in the circuit. So with the cap switch OFF as shown in the pic, I’m thinking that the positive and negative leads of the pickup must be touching both sides of both caps
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Post by ourclarioncall on Mar 17, 2020 18:57:54 GMT -5
For the parallel cap
It looks like neck + is touching the cap at the 3rd lug on the cap switch and the - is touching the 6th lug, going up the blue jumper wire on the pup selector switch to 11, then down to 12 and back down and across to 1 on the cap switch where it’s touching the cap on the other side
For the series cap
It looks like the + is touching the cap leg at 2nd lug on the pup selector and the - is going from 6 to 4 on the cap switch then up the blue jumper wire to 10 and up to 9 on the pup selector touching the other leg of the cap
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Post by ourclarioncall on Mar 18, 2020 17:49:24 GMT -5
just to clarify the problem at bit better....
when the pickup selector are on parallel in phase, then everything seems fine. The cap works as it should when the cap switch is on. But the problems arise when the pickups are in series in phase. I described the problem above being that even tho the cap switch is off , when I inserted the higher or lower caps , they become part of the circuit. And when the cap switch is turned on , it seems to cut off the neck pickup just leaving the bridge single coil on its own.
I think I was right. I cut the 2 blue jumper wires one at a time to see if it would stop the caps being part of the circuit while the cap switch was off, and it seems to have worked. I haven’t figured out why when I turn the cap switch on the neck turns off and leaves just the bridge . Even if I did figure it out this third problem I don’t think I would be able to come up with a solution
I am tempted to go back to the original setup where this was a hoop switch as the jumpers were original placed where they are with that setup. I would like to check that the original wiring actually works properly as I may have missed these problems that I am now aware of IF any of them exist
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Post by ourclarioncall on Mar 19, 2020 19:09:15 GMT -5
I just rewired it back to reTrEaD original version and tested it and everything seems to be working perfectly. Although it’s not the most efficient or logical in operation Retread Can you see any quick fix to turn the hoop switch into a normal cap on and off switch ? I tried swapping lugs 3 and 6 to remove the phase reversal but I guess we have the problem of the blue jumper wires which you strategically placed in those positions . Hence that’s why I ran into the above problems .
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Post by reTrEaD on Mar 19, 2020 22:52:59 GMT -5
Retread Can you see any quick fix to turn the hoop switch into a normal cap on and off switch ? That sounds like something which could be done but I'd need to know which diagram to which you're referring. You've posted so many in this thread, I can't keep track.
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Post by ourclarioncall on Mar 20, 2020 8:31:42 GMT -5
Retread Can you see any quick fix to turn the hoop switch into a normal cap on and off switch ? That sounds like something which could be done but I'd need to know which diagram to which you're referring. You've posted so many in this thread, I can't keep track. This was the one where you figured out how to have both the series and parallel caps in the same circuit by having 4PDT switches and the blue jumper wires. i added in a few old comments just to remind of the problems of the confusion in switching. so yeah, is there a way to turn the hoop switches into simple “cap on or off” switches ?
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Post by reTrEaD on Mar 20, 2020 11:38:38 GMT -5
I'll probably have time to review this, tomorrow or the next. Likely to be able to change the HooP switch to an 'Add a Cap" switch which places the correct cap in the circuit in the correct location to suit the pickup configuration (Series/Only One Pickup/Parallel)
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Post by ourclarioncall on Mar 20, 2020 12:00:07 GMT -5
Retread
Fantastic 🙂 Thanks v much
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Post by ourclarioncall on Mar 27, 2020 17:17:39 GMT -5
Progress Update getting close now to a final version. Here’s a rough sketch, I will try to produce a decent one now I just got some vector graphic software. the 4 switches on the left side control the pickup selection and tone shaping and the other 4 on the right side control volume. I will place a gap between each block of 4 switches (not shown in picture ) the picture is as I will see it while I wire it but it will flip upside down. The row of 4 switch nearest my hand will end up in a nice logical setup(2 switches from the left side and 2 from the right ) . First switch down selects neck, third switch down select neck volume, second switch and fourth switch do the same for bridge. the only thing I could see myself getting rid of are the neck and volume switches , I think everything else is a keeper. the volume switches for neck and bridge are more about tone shaping and I like how they have been giving me some unique sounds a bit different to what the cap or phasing has offered. i think I have exhausted just about everything there is for an all switch setup the only thing I can think of is having switches with resistors (like the cap switches) but I don’t know if the same effect has already been accomplished with the volume switches which obviously use resistors .
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Post by ourclarioncall on Mar 27, 2020 19:06:37 GMT -5
Ah, just noticed the kill switch doesn’t have a ground coming into it, only one going out. I think I know how to fix it but .... then I thought it might be better placed in between the connector block and the output jack , although I won’t actually position the switch there, il move it where it was originally
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Post by perfboardpatcher on Apr 5, 2020 5:00:14 GMT -5
Ourclarioncall, took me some time to finish this work . You might want to take a look at it, if you're still in the phoop and shoop business of course! I cannot recommend any component values yet before I'm done with my Calc worksheets workout.
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Post by ourclarioncall on Apr 5, 2020 16:33:33 GMT -5
Ourclarioncall, took me some time to finish this work . You might want to take a look at it, if you're still in the phoop and shoop business of course! I cannot recommend any component values yet before I'm done with my Calc worksheets workout. Ah, I wondered why you had been quiet around these parts 🙂 I had a look earlier today and am away to have another look just now Great work 👍 👍 Il comment more over there
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Post by perfboardpatcher on Apr 8, 2020 12:04:23 GMT -5
Ah, I wondered why you had been quiet around these parts 🙂 I had a look earlier today and am away to have another look just now Great work 👍 👍 Il comment more over there I saw your comments over there. Don't know if I have too much of an imagination, but I was reading between the lines... Yes I can offer you a circuit diagram and schematic. You can download and upload to your image hoster and then post on the forum.
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Post by ourclarioncall on Apr 8, 2020 14:20:44 GMT -5
perfboardpatcherbrilliant ! Thanks mate 😊 this is definitely where MY imagination was headed 😁 trying to figure out how to tweak it for the hoop sounds I am away to have a study of this you’ve also whet my appetite for even more with those resistors and cap/resistor combos
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Post by ourclarioncall on Apr 13, 2020 18:38:05 GMT -5
Almost done Just got the caps to do, that part should be fun 😬
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Post by perfboardpatcher on Apr 14, 2020 13:11:51 GMT -5
Almost done Just got the caps to do, that part should be fun 😬 Bring it on!
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Post by ourclarioncall on Apr 14, 2020 16:08:01 GMT -5
Success......... almost 😢😆😊 The bridge pickup does not seem to be working when set to S2 parallel mode, but is working fine when in series mode The S1 out of phase switch works in series , but I don’t know about parallel as both pickup won’t go on, just the neck works. The S5 cap on/off seems to be working in series mode. Well, I can hear a tonal difference. But again , I don’t know for parallel as bridge pickup is not coming on When I toggle S6 back and forth I’m not really hearing any difference between neck cap and bridge cap, however my pickups are pretty close together, but saying that, I’m not sure I heard much difference when using other circuits which I think was the reason I just went to one cap on one pickup instead of having a cap on both pickups. Saying that, I’m not totally confident and would like to experiment with that again. —- so why is the bridge pickup not working in parallel mode? as you can see I am using a few 4pdt switch and for the phase switch I am using a on-on-on switch. These were the only switches I had available so thought I would take a risk could the on-on-on switch be causing the problem with the bridge pickup not coming on in parallel mode? it does seem to be working in series mode tho. I’ve tried tapping the pole pieces on the pickups in different setting just to make sure the pickups are on. I can’t think of anything else. I double checked the wiring and it looks like I’ve got everything right.
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Post by ourclarioncall on Apr 14, 2020 17:53:02 GMT -5
Just had another test
In parallel mode , when I turn the bridge pickup on by itself, it’s not working , but the amp is making some noise. Not extreme , but you can hear it.
But when I play around with S5 and S6 , one of these settings turns the bridge pickup off completely , no more noise. It’s as if the bridge pickup was in the off position but it isn’t , it’s still in the on position.
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Post by ourclarioncall on Apr 15, 2020 9:41:58 GMT -5
Oh no, it’s gone from bad to worse 🤦♂️
I decided to reheat the lugs to melt the solder again properly in case of any cold joints.
Then when I tried it again , now when in series mode , both pickups are always on . It doesn’t matter if I try to turn bridge or neck off, they just stay on.
Laugh or cry 😢 😆
I don’t know if I’m being paranoid but it looked like one of the lugs was wobbly when I was applying the tip of the iron. I was trying hard not to hold the heat on for long tho as I’ve learned my lesson from the past , so not sure .
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