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Post by dannyhill on Mar 7, 2013 16:45:20 GMT -5
Ok, not so bad. I tried to start by replicating yours but I need a tutorial in 5spice. :-) My graphs dont look like yours, same ball park though. Any tips for things to try? D
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Post by dannyhill on Mar 7, 2013 7:28:14 GMT -5
Hi Newey,
For clarification: I aim to use strangle switches on all my guitars (except a Dano). The diagram I posted was for a generic two pup gibson modern dependent wiring setup (I have three guitars like this, plus 4 single volume guitars and the Dano). I didn't intend to wire any of them how the Jag is (single volume or two volume), except perhaps of course the Jag. Simulations....yes, when I get time.
Danny
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Post by dannyhill on Mar 7, 2013 4:32:19 GMT -5
Well, it seems as well as falling short in my guitar wiring diploma I'm also falling short in my forums etiquette. sumgai: The tone pot in the rhythm section is only 50kOhm, has no resistor and is wired to the pickup BEFORE the volume pot as in the lead circuit. So, you use the lead circuit down to about 50KOhm and then the rhythm ciruit below that? Is that why it was done? Full diagram coming up. ashcatlt: How is 56kOhm going to make any difference? If V is on max and I turn the tone half way down to 500kOhm its 1MOhm vs 306kOhm (instead of 250KOhm). Can't see how it will make a big difference. I, at least, still don't have it clear why the tone and volume pots are wired this way around while on all other guitars its the other way around. D
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Post by dannyhill on Mar 6, 2013 15:43:57 GMT -5
Hi John,
I will try. I'm due some time off next week, first since August and will crack on with it then. Where can I download it? Cheers,
Danny
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Post by dannyhill on Mar 6, 2013 10:22:27 GMT -5
"That potentiometer style of T pot wiring is pretty strange. Don't really see that about anyhere. I'd think that 56K resistor helps keep there from being upwards of 1M resistance between the pickups and the jack!"
Can you explain how the 56K stops a resistance from going above 1M? Is that because its in parallel with whatever load there is from the in side and the wiper which always makes it overall less than 1MEG? But then there is 1MEG to go in series afterwards at the volume pot? Or am I still a way from getting my guitar electronics diploma?
"Neither the Rickenbackers nor the G&L with bass cuts do this, so I don't think it has anything to do with that..." So, no problem in putting my strangle caps where I wanted them then?
D
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Post by dannyhill on Mar 6, 2013 7:30:42 GMT -5
Hi John,
Thanks for that. Lets see if I understand. This is for two volume or two volume and one master? I can try? :-) Looks daunting....
D
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Post by dannyhill on Mar 6, 2013 7:23:33 GMT -5
I've updated the diagram again. All -ve leads are now grounded. In a jag the strangle acts on one or the other or both pups. To my uneducated eye both the Jag and my setup have the two caps in parallel with each other. But what do I know? EDITED: Good question about the 56kOhm resistor! I looked into this and apparently its there to keep the peak response at 300Hz, similar to a Jazzy with the larger 0.03uF but w/out any mid-range hump.
What is it with the pickup going to the tone pot first and the wiper output going to the in of the volume pot as opposed to the more typical other way around like on a Jazzy? Is this because of the strangle cap? If I wanted to wire a strangle cap into LPs, teles, strats etc should I wire them this way too? How does that affect vol/tone control interaction on a jag? Seems all the Jags are wired that way. ?
Danny
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Post by dannyhill on Mar 6, 2013 5:33:35 GMT -5
sumgai, Bass cut cap=strangle cap=high pass filter cap All the same thing. Yes the idea for each switch is to have no cap (wire)/0.01/0.0033 or 0.0047 (depending on the guitar). ashcatlt, I don't follow you. I have wired it as Fender do for their Jags. Cheers, Danny
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Post by dannyhill on Mar 5, 2013 16:02:19 GMT -5
Hi sumgai,
Something my gran used to say when she was frustrated by something. That and bother. F-iddlesticks and B-other being substitutes for other words, perhaps expletives? :-)
"I'm looking at your (presumably) edited diagram, so I can't see what bothered ash. (But it must've been something, to confuse him enough to makehim swear!)!"
I had the strangle cap on the wrong wires.
"Your latest scheme will work, but I have a tip, and a question. In reverse order - why are you now considering a switch for monkeying with the bass-cut cap? Did you suddenly become afraid of potentiometers?"
Well, these can: Act as bass cuts i.e. strangle caps in a single pup selection or parallel pup selection Give half out of phase if I use a 0.01uF, or does this only work when two pups go to the same volume pot? Give series taming.
I use switches instead of potentiometers for less load and also to enable to jump to preset capacitances. Or did I not understand your question?
"And two: I'd put the "standard treble cut" tone control on the pickup side of the bass-cut cap. The way you have it now, the bass-cut affects the treble cut (they're in series), and that could end up with a weird "cross control" effect, where each of them affects the other. Better would be in parallel, as I suggest, which will tend to isolate the two different tone circuits, and hopefully reduce or eliminate any cross-controlling."
But this is how it is in a Jaguar and a vintage Rick. Bass cuts always come off of the switch or before entering the switch off of a pup. I always understood that a bass cut before a volume pot cuts the volume less then coming after the 3 way gibby switch. ? Cheers,
D
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Post by dannyhill on Mar 5, 2013 15:02:29 GMT -5
Oooooo!
I am starting to think that the standard LP wirings and the various 'standard' variations provide easier access to more of the tonal parameter space and allow for those who switch from lead to rhythm mid-song, whilst Gretsch wirings and it various 'standard' variations provide easier/faster access to a few regions of the tonal parameter space which is why people who like to play with the tone on full and like to switch at the same volume prefer that setup.
Keep in mind that anything that you can come up with will: (a) Be most gratefully appreciated (b) eventually, if to replace a Gibby wiring, have to work also for series, HOOP and series/parallel OOP 'modes' as well with switchable tone caps and switchable series caps (for series taming, strangle and HOOP).
Good luck!
Danny
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Post by dannyhill on Mar 5, 2013 12:50:37 GMT -5
Hi John,
Seeds are good.
"At risk, in a passive setup up, is a loss of treble both at full settings, due to extra loading on the pickups, due to extra pots between hot and ground and at lower settings, depending on how its done." Can this be overcome by using a 1MEG pot master volume?
"loss of treble due to independent wiring, " Do you mean connect each pickup to the wiper on the volume pot? Why can we not connect to the in lug as in dependent wiring? BTW I've heard people lift the other outside lug so the individual pots act as rheostats, but then in the middle you could never completely switch one off right?
"or lack of effective treble bleed." Sounds like some experimentation or SpiceWorld calcs needed.
"I'm not sure how exactly a classic Gretsch is wired, Ive seen various versions. My friend has a 6120, and when he was getting a lack of treble in some cases, he let me investigate with a meter. It turns out the Gretsch Filter-trons are quite low impedance (about 4k from memory), suggesting that they can tolerate quite a lot of loading, like a single coil, and that the master volume is 500k. So it has every reason to sound bright and clear, except at lower volume since there is no treble bleed. The answer for him was to ditch his 20' cord and use a 10' and keep the volume up high when possible. And it sounds great, especially the way he plays it."
That's interesting, so low impedance pups (usually single coils not HBs) tolerate loading and therefore can be used with low impedance pots. I have one with 4-5kOhm pots and the other 2 from 7-10kOhm
"What I'm saying there, is that the Gretsch pickups are particularly suitable for use with multiple volume pots."
Unless we use larger pots? But then we get the same problem when we roll off past 7 on a 1MEG I guess?
"If we say that the ideal tonal balance for a typical humbucker comes with 500k volume and tone pots (just an assumption), we could replicate the load caused by that with two 500k volume pots and a no-load tone pot. I had a play around, and the most consistent tones seemed to be from each volume pot being forwards wired, with treble bleed cap and resistor, but somewhat lower cap values than normal."
For forward wiring I would say dependent volume pots wiring?
The first volume pot would be associated with the pickup, the second, after the toggle switch, is for master volume. Given a master volume, maybe the first pickup volume pot need not go to zero (maybe put a fixed resistor on it to ground), which also allows it to be configured with a flatter taper for easier mixing with the other pup, and more optimized treble bleed.
Sounds interesting, a treble bleed with parallel cap would give a flat taper too. This is the Rheostat setup you had in mind right?
Danny
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Post by dannyhill on Mar 5, 2013 7:26:21 GMT -5
Fiddle sticks. I've gone back and updated it now.
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Post by dannyhill on Mar 5, 2013 6:22:12 GMT -5
Hi again, I had in mind something like this (excuse the bad drawing), now edited TWICE: The caps labelled 1 and 2 would be switchable using one of these which someone previously drew here from another thread: The "From Vol" would be replaced with "From hot pup end" and the three ends would be tied to another wire, 0.01 cap and 0.0033 caps and the loose ends tied together at 'in' side of volume pot. This would be done for each pup. Does this make sense? Danny
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Post by dannyhill on Mar 5, 2013 4:45:34 GMT -5
Hi guys,
Right, just picking bits of my head up after it exploded. So this is obviously non-trivial.
What I didn't realise was that when two pups are in parallel (e.g. middle position of a LP) if only one has a cap between its hot end and its volume pot then the cap affects both it and the other pup. Or did you mean just for single or master volume (Fender) wirings?
So if I put one on each pup, make them switchable I can have: Individual - 0.0033 or off? Parallel - 0.0033 or 0.0017 or off? series - 0.0033 or 0.0066 or off?
Then if I use a triple throw with off/0.01/0.0033 .....oooh!
BTW I didn't realise until last night that in the usual Gibson dependent modern wiring, in the middle position, tone controls are independent once they are both rolled off from 10 a little. Cheers,
Danny
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Post by dannyhill on Mar 4, 2013 5:08:22 GMT -5
Hi ashcatlt,
Thanks for pitching in! What is not clear to me, is why voltages in parallel sum in your calcs. Surely, as the pups are in parallel they combination should follow a 1/V relationship?
D
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Post by dannyhill on Mar 4, 2013 4:14:22 GMT -5
Hi there, JohnH - You're quite right. If I get a few hours to myself I might have a go at it. I just thought anecdotal information might be out here on the ether, so would be a five minute job. ashcatlt - Interesting, I don't understand how you go from 0dB for each pup to 6dB for combined.....is there something subtle I missed here, or is there a numerical oversight? Cheers, D
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Post by dannyhill on Mar 3, 2013 16:31:37 GMT -5
I mean how do the two signals combine in parallel? Low end removed? So with a high pass filter even more removed? If we filter BEFORE they combine, less low end to be removed on combining? This is something not clear to me....
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Post by dannyhill on Mar 3, 2013 16:09:28 GMT -5
Hi again John,
I guess, what I mean is: what are the drawbacks of a Gretsch type scheme and are there ways around it? Cheers,
Danny
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Post by dannyhill on Mar 2, 2013 16:18:47 GMT -5
Ah, the great sage speaks!
Many thanks for that John. Should I read forward wiring as dependent wiring and backwards as independent? Not sure I understand "Tone pots should be before volume controls" - is this a 50s thing? 50s wiring seems to be an easy way to paint yourself into one tonal corner if you liked it there and didnt want to bother about treble bleeds. Right?
I was reading all sorts about independent wiring sucking tone and taking off some treble end. Then I head that in order to have Gretsch like wiring in an LP or 335 they would increase the value of the pot they use for master volume in order to compensate for the extra load. I think with Gretsch wiring the pots are dependent, right?
But I also heard that several artists swap out a tone pot for a master volume as it helps them to set the middle position balance then adjust master volume for levels. Just one pot to kill the sounds too and just one for doing swells without the need for a volume pedal. But I hear you enter the muddy ground very quickly when you roll of the individual volumes, anyway to compensate that without screwing with the tapers and/or pup voice?
I mean if you play jangly/trebly music, invariably in middle position and with tone up high or maxed out, the Gretsch wiring might be useful then? For example Jeff Foskett of the Beach Boys does that to all his Gibsons and Epis. With the firebirds he has 3 volumes, one master volume and no tone control, but then it is a dark guitar.
Obviously if you are switching between lead and rhythm in a more rock style then a classic LP wiring is much more appealing. My understanding that it will take you to more places but you need to know how to get there.
Independent wiring = easier to blend whatever 'resultant sound' the pups give you with load changes? Dependent wiring = truer sound although slightly less intuitive to blend?
BTW Great quote on the Gretsch pages: "On inferior guitars, like Gibsons for instance, the volume controls don't work correctly in the middle position. The Gretsch master knob is also in a good spot for doing swells. I don't see how anyone could play a guitar without a master volume and master tone." I can hear Mr Paul turning in his grave.
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Post by dannyhill on Mar 2, 2013 13:38:56 GMT -5
Hi all,
I was pondering something about multiple volume pot wiring schemes where a 3 way toggle is used i.e. 335, LP, Black beauty (3 HB), firebird (3HB).
I suspect this is all subjective and depends on the style of playing but what are the advantages/disadvantages of the following alternatives: (1) Two volume and two tone, dependent wiring with treble bleeds. (2) Two volume and two tone, independent wiring with treble bleeds, with larger volume pots if any treble loss for variable loading of pups is necessary. (3) Master volume (treble bleed), master tone and two dependent volumes - a larger pot can be used for the master volume to compensate for loss of high end due to increased load on pups. Rheostat option for individual volume pots? (4) Master volume (treble bleed), master tone and two independent volumes - a larger pot can be used for the master volume to compensate for loss of high end due to increased load on pups. With larger volume pots if any treble loss for variable loading of pups is necessary. Rheostat option for individual volume pots?
I usually use the first but I'm starting to see that many prefer 3 or 4 as its easier to control blending in the middle position with any loss in high end from two volume pots in parallel with the master volume pot being compensated by a larger master vol pot value.
What do you think? Cheers,
D
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Post by dannyhill on Feb 20, 2013 6:38:07 GMT -5
The sound on the rosewood to me has less emphasis on the highs and more on mids compared to maple. YMMV.
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Post by dannyhill on Feb 20, 2013 6:34:03 GMT -5
I don't know about you guys but I can hear a difference if tapped carefully for a pup forward and reverse wired.
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Post by dannyhill on Feb 17, 2013 4:07:38 GMT -5
Hi John,
Thanks for that. Single volume pot guitars have them usually just before the volume pot and two volumes (and 3?) would have them after the switch, with the more volume drop.
I was trying to get my head around the operator on the waveform, before and each and then combine vs combine and then operator on resulting waveform. Cheers,
Danny
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Post by dannyhill on Feb 16, 2013 16:06:48 GMT -5
Hi guys,
Will a single volume guitar sound different if in the middle (parallel pup) position I add a bass cut cap before the volume instead of the same cap before each individual pickup? Cheers,
Daniel
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Post by dannyhill on Feb 8, 2013 14:32:29 GMT -5
Hi John,
A regular 5 way does what is posted up the page: Bridge PArallel Neck Neck with treble cut (if we jumper instead of the series cap). Series
I guess I should invest in a super switch, cheap b@st@rd that I am, and have these options. I like the look of the S1's, not cheap mind you! 30€ for whole thing. EDIT: Two pups in parallel, each has an identical cap in series with them, will they sound the same as the two in parallel in series with one another cap of same value?
D
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Post by dannyhill on Feb 8, 2013 8:07:27 GMT -5
How do we feel about S1 Switches? I'm trying to see how to minimise the number of toggles/slides and maximise the number of circuits.
Take an Anderton Mod, say with the neck in parallel to a cap in 4th and series in 5th, and then add further options on switching the S1: Out of phase parallel, out of phase series, HOOP parallel position 1 (cap in series with reversed bridge) and HOOP parallel position 1 (cap in series with reversed neck) One more?
Can this be done with a 5 way and S1 or do I need a superswitch?
EDIT: What I REALLY want to do, is to do the above Anderton mod with the same order of combinations BUT in position 4 to have bridge and neck swapped around. Of course by swapping bridge for neck I get neck/parallel/Bridge/bridge in parallel to middy neck/series. Then with phase reverse on the bridge and the series connection cap switchable in/out in the 4th position I can get the neck reversed and thinner in paralllel with the bridge - HOOP! D
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Post by dannyhill on Feb 7, 2013 12:15:06 GMT -5
Thanks Ashcatlt! "Q: For treble cut, is there any difference between putting a cap across the ground and hot connections of a volume cap pot or just using the tone control with its cap? Did I correct your question correctly? If so, then no...maybe...sort of...yes... If the cap is connected to the same places that the T pot + cap are connected then it will act the same as if the T pot was at 0. But the V pot has two lugs which could be considered "hot", and it does make some difference which of these you use. (see 50s vs Modern wiring)" I meant across the outside lugs of the volume pot. ? D
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Post by dannyhill on Feb 7, 2013 4:30:50 GMT -5
Hi AshCatlt,
Q: I guess people always recommend putting the tamer cap between pickups as its easier to add it to the hot side of a pickup when you switch to a series configuration of pups?
Q:So if I have an EXTRA switch to add different caps or just a wire, I can put that before the first pickup for series taming/strangle(of that pickup)/HOOP(if that pickup direction is reversed). Then I could add ANOTHER switch for strangle of the other pickup/extra series taming?
Q: For treble cut, is there any difference between putting a cap across the ground and hot connections of a volume cap or just using the tone control with its cap?
@ JohnH: The hoop and the modified tbx. What do you have in mind? The TBX only allows for treble cut or bass cut, not both. I think I'm confused about adding caps before and after the pots.
Modified: One more q: In the HOOP is the tone any different if I reverse one and add cap, or the other?
Too early for so many questions?
D
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Post by dannyhill on Feb 6, 2013 19:23:50 GMT -5
Hi Asthtcalt,
So there is no difference in sound for two pickups in series if a cap is placed between them after the second or before the first (to ground)?
D
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Post by dannyhill on Feb 6, 2013 18:00:26 GMT -5
Hi Ashcatlt,
Many thanks for that. If I look at my 5 way wiring diagram it would seem therefore that in position 4 I get: .01uF in parallel to the bridge and .0047uF in series with it .0032 in parallel to the neck (.01uf and .0047uf caps in series, 1/x)
Wait up! Is it a bass cut and not a treble cut I need here along with a reverse phase pup in parallel with another to get HOOP? If so I can make these both switchable and then in position 4 just swap the .0047uF for a wire and then reverse the bridge pup to get HOOP?
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