blooze
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Post by blooze on Aug 1, 2022 12:22:58 GMT -5
I’ve got a ‘64 mustang that I’ve had for 35 years. As a teenager we decided to move the output jack to the body edge and drilled (I use the term loosely) a hole for it and stripped the “cracked” paint off. Needless to say it’s sat in parts in the case all this time. I recently repainted it, cleaned up the drilled hole, and am almost ready to do the wiring. Only one original pickup was good so I’ll be using SD SSL-5’s with one being RWRP. Output jack will remain on the body edge and a 3 way toggle pickup selector will go on the control plate where the jack originally was. I ordered a new pickguard for it and left the slide switch holes like original. I was wondering if some of you experts could look over the following doodle to tell me if this would work for the wiring?  |
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Post by newey on Aug 1, 2022 14:12:14 GMT -5
I see at least two major issue with your diagram, there may be others. With both slide switches to the left (lugs 5 connects to 7, lug 6 connects to 8), no pickup is in circuit- your "dark" cap doesn't connect to anything. Second, with the right-handed slide switch set to the middle position (3-5, 4-6), your "hot" signal from the bridge P/U is grounded- but so is the other end of the series chain, since the neck pickups' black wire is permanently connected to the back of the V pot.
It's also not clear to me why you would want a "none" setting on the slide switch- it would be hard to use it as a kill switch, and if the goal is to have a "stand by" setting so the guitar can be left plugged in onstage, OK, but it'd be pretty easy to switch the whole shebang off while trying to get the parallel setting.
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Post by MattB on Aug 1, 2022 15:00:17 GMT -5
I agree with Newey on both those issues. This is what I'm seeing from your diagram:  Sending the bridge pickup through the phase switch before it goes to the parallel/series selector might let you get the series out of phase setting working.
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blooze
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Post by blooze on Aug 1, 2022 15:08:03 GMT -5
Yeah, the whole DPTT slide switch thing confuses me. I'm going to use the 3-way toggle for pickup selection regardless. I thought maybe I could utilize the slide switches for something, but they can just be decoration too.
I was trying to incorporate a series parallel with one switch into the popular Mustang 5.0 schematic while using the toggle as the pickup selector.
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Post by Yogi B on Aug 1, 2022 15:24:57 GMT -5
The six rightmost terminals of the left-hand slide switch should probably follow 3-way + Global Series switch the GuitarNutz (proper) way (or some variation thereupon). Plus, the "None" position would be better served by shorting the output rather than just disconnecting the pickups which may be possible, but first I'd need to know exactly what you want from the "Dark" position. It seems as though you want only the neck pickup (plus the dark cap) selected in this position, is this correct? Or is it that you want the cap in parallel with only the neck pickup? blooze, basically it would be really helpful if you could tell us what you actually expect from each position, or what's wrong with the following truth table (which represents the current wiring): | Switches | Output |
|---|
| Sw1 | Sw2 | Toggle | Pickup(s) |
|---|
| Off | In
Phase | B | None | | B+N | None | | N | None | Out
of
Phase | B | None | | B+N | None | | N | None | | Dark | B | N | | B+N | N + Cap | | N | Cap | | Parallel | In
Phase | B | B | | B+N | B + N | | N | N | Out
of
Phase | B | −B | | B+N | N + −B | | N | N | | Dark | B | N + Cap | | B+N | N + Cap | | N | N + Cap | | Series | In
Phase | B | B × N | | B+N | B × N | | N | None | Out
of
Phase | B | None | | B+N | None | | N | None | | Dark | B | N | | B+N | N + Cap | | N | Cap |
ack, ninja'd by MattB and yourself. |
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Post by MattB on Aug 1, 2022 15:46:08 GMT -5
That diagram has the same issue of the bridge pickup being cut out in dark mode. It's eqivalent to the parallel setting in your diagram. So you got it mostly right, it's just the series setting that needs some work. I think I can see how fix it, but it's getting late here. I should have some free time to try drawing it out in the next few days.
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Post by MattB on Aug 1, 2022 15:52:42 GMT -5
That diagram has the same issue of the bridge pickup being cut out in dark mode.
Yogi got this one right, and i got it wrong. You get the neck pickup with cap in all three positions. So you don't get the bridge pickup but at least there isn't a dead spot.
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Post by Yogi B on Aug 1, 2022 15:58:57 GMT -5
I was trying to incorporate a series parallel with one switch into the popular Mustang 5.0 schematic while using the toggle as the pickup selector. Okay, that makes things clearer, but the question of precedence remains. The 'sensible' way to wire a series/parallel switch is to have it override the toggle switch, but with the Mustang 5.0 wiring we have the dark setting which also overrides the toggle switch — so which should win? There's at least four (useful) options I can think of: - Series mode wins: both pickups are selected in series, cap is disconnected;
- Dark mode wins: Only neck pickup, plus dark cap, are selected;
- Draw A: both pickups are in series, dark cap in parallel with both pickups;
- Draw B: both pickups are in series, dark cap in parallel with only neck pickup.
Maybe not all of the above are possible, so it would be good if you could rank them in order of what you'd prefer. That diagram has the same issue of the bridge pickup being cut out in dark mode. I think that "issue" is intentional: it is dark mode, after all. And somewhat mirrors the dark mode of early Telecasters/Broadcasters. Edit:...ninja'd again, I see what you were saying now... |
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blooze
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Post by blooze on Aug 1, 2022 15:59:53 GMT -5
I started digging some more and found this over at Offset (https://www.offsetguitars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=104282) in the first post. I'll try to study how the switches work.
I think they were trying going for a "Dark" sound like from a Jaguar.
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Post by Yogi B on Aug 1, 2022 16:14:43 GMT -5
Also I forgot: blooze, is your toggle switch actually an open frame switch as shown in your initial post (whereby the 'centre terminal' is actually two terminals bent together), or is it a box switch possessing only three terminals (and potentially an additional connection to the body for the purposes of grounding, like that shown in the image from OffsetGuitars)? This may or may not be relevant, but the former style of switch can give slightly more options if we separate the middle lugs and utilise each half of the switch individually. |
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blooze
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Post by blooze on Aug 1, 2022 16:23:26 GMT -5
Also I forgot: blooze, is your toggle switch actually an open frame switch as shown in your initial post (whereby the 'centre terminal' is actually two terminals bent together), or is it a box switch possessing only three terminals (and potentially an additional connection to the body for the purposes of grounding, like that shown in the image from OffsetGuitars)? This may or may not be relevant, but the former style of switch can give slightly more options if we separate the middle lugs and utilise each half of the switch individually. I like the "dark" rythym sound on the Jaguar, which I think this is trying to emulate a bit. Not crazy out out of phase N+B parallel sounds.
It's an open frame switch. This one.
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blooze
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Post by blooze on Aug 1, 2022 17:01:49 GMT -5
I want to express my thanks for all the help! Something about these switches throws me off. Guitar pedals, tube amps, etc I seem to be able to work through, but more than a dpdt with switches and my mind scrambles. 🙄
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Post by MattB on Aug 2, 2022 7:08:40 GMT -5
I think I managed to get the series mode working better. The series out of phase setting should work now, and there aren't any dead spots. The only issue is the series setting in dark mode. You get the neck pickup in series with the dark cap in all three toggle positions. This would be a bass cut, but the .05uF dark cap in the first diagram by blooze is probably too big to cut any bass at audible frequencies. Something like 2nF-15nF would be a more reasonable value for a bass cut, but that would make the parallel/dark sound less dark. Another issue is because the tone control is after the cap, turning the tone down would also cut more bass, and cut bass at higher frequencies.
Diagram and truth table: I think that "issue" is intentional: it is dark mode, after all. And somewhat mirrors the dark mode of early Telecasters/Broadcasters. Edit:...ninja'd again, I see what you were saying now... Yeah, it makes a lot more sense now I'm not reading the diagram wrong  |
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blooze
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Post by blooze on Aug 2, 2022 8:45:45 GMT -5
That makes sense. Thank you!
Now, not to make light of all the work you've done, but I'm not set on any particular switching scheme. Although I do like that dark setting if it's similar to the link below. Is there anything else you might suggest that would be more "useful"? I don't play live anymore, so this would all be for home anyway.
Here's a good example of the dark sound I think. At about 6:30. Dark Sound
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Post by MattB on Aug 2, 2022 10:31:18 GMT -5
Now, not to make light of all the work you've done, but I'm not set on any particular switching scheme. Although I do like that dark setting if it's similar to the link below. Is there anything else you might suggest that would be more "useful"? I don't play live anymore, so this would all be for home anyway.
If you give up the phase switch you could use one switch for off/parallel/series and use the other for a fixed tone selector. You could have a normal/dark/bass-cut switch that doesn't override the toggle selector, so you could have the dark sound on the bridge pickup as well. This setup would use different caps for the dark setting and the bass cut setting, so you wouldn't have to compromise the tone of either. The bass cut would be placed after the tone control, so it wouldn't interact with it.
You could wire the first switch so switching to series mode also puts one pickup out of phase. That gives you off/parallel/series OOP and leaves the second switch free for something else.
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Post by reTrEaD on Aug 2, 2022 11:20:02 GMT -5
I want to express my thanks for all the help! Something about these switches throws me off. Guitar pedals, tube amps, etc I seem to be able to work through, but more than a dpdt with switches and my mind scrambles. 🙄 These switches function a bit differently than those which have poles and throws. Contact is made to adjacent lugs. If you look at the OP in the following thread, I've colored the lugs to indicate where internal connections exist in each of the three positions. The Three-position Slide Switch (Fender Mustang) |
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Post by Yogi B on Aug 2, 2022 11:59:18 GMT -5
I think I managed to get the series mode working better. The series out of phase setting should work now, and there aren't any dead spots. The only issue is the series setting in dark mode. You get the neck pickup in series with the dark cap in all three toggle positions. I had virtually the same thing written down, the two differences being that I had the top left terminal of your righthand slide switch connected directly to the neck's hot lead (the cap was also unhooked from that terminal, but remains connected to the toggle switch's neck input). This shorts the cap, thereby giving just N where you have N*Cap. I also hooked the top left terminal of the left slide switch to the output jack's hot, in order to short the output to ground when in the off position. I came up naught for four, against the options I previously mentioned for the conflict between the series & dark modes — I was evidently being too optimistic. In reality, with the dark mode being tied to the phase switch, there's not that much flexibility. I'll also see what alternatives I can come up with. I've been meaning to talk to you about your image in the OP of that thread, it claims to be a PNG (or at least has the .png file extension) but it's completely uncompressed — I get almost exactly the same file size, 2.7MiB, if I resave it as a bitmap; resaving it as a PNG gets that down to just 57kiB (or 47kiB via PNGOUT), 50-60 times less. |
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Post by reTrEaD on Aug 2, 2022 15:41:18 GMT -5
I've been meaning to talk to you about your image in the OP of that thread Strange indeed. The extension was .png but it was definitely a bitmap. It was hosted on imgbox. Not a place I usually upload images. I converted it to png and uploaded it to my Cloudinary account, then edited the OP. Thanks! |
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Post by Yogi B on Aug 2, 2022 19:51:30 GMT -5
I like the "dark" rhythm sound on the Jaguar, which I think this is trying to emulate a bit. Here's a good example of the dark sound I think. At about 6:30. Dark SoundI've not really addressed this yet, but while related those two are different. On a Jaguar the rhythm circuit is inherently a little darker than the main circuit due to it using a 50k tone pot (versus 1Meg in the main circuit, both volumes are 1Meg). Obviously that's only a starting point and the tone can be rolled back further — I'll also point out that Jag tone controls are a wired pretty much uniquely in that they add series resistance as they're reduced, meaning they can use a smaller tone cap (10nF) yet yield more treble cut than a normal control (with a 47nF cap) in addition to having a somewhat different response. The Rhythm circuit selects the neck pickup only. The Esquire, having only the bridge pickup, obviously can't do that and if we're being absolutely traditional is also wired pretty weird. There's a 50nF cap and 3k3 (or 2k5) resistor in series with the pickup followed by a 50nF cap to ground. The dual identical caps cause a minimum loss of 6dB across all frequencies in addition to the treble loss. I don't know if that's what Dylan is using since the circuit isn't disclosed, but a volume drop is mentioned (though that could also just be due to the lack of treble). In either case an almost identical response with no extra loss can be achieved by removing the series resistor and halving the value of the cap to ground (e.g. the two 50nF caps in series, if you were being thrifty). The single parallel cap used in the Mustang 5.0 wiring is more similar to the Esquire wiring than to a Jaguar. It's an open frame switch. This one.  I've just realised the pictured switch has six terminals and therefore is a full DPDT ON/ON/ON — is that correct? If so, that potentially opens up yet more possibilities. I came up naught for four, against the options I previously mentioned for the conflict between the series & dark modes I have thought of another way around that problem: we can rearrange the positions. One switch can select between: parallel / series / neck+cap. The other selects: in phase / out of phase / off. I can see a way of doing that but it involves leaving the neck pickup hanging from hot when the bridge alone is selected. |
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Post by MattB on Aug 3, 2022 6:11:36 GMT -5
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blooze
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Post by blooze on Aug 3, 2022 10:53:55 GMT -5
Yep. That is the one. Should have it Friday.
I'm willing to give about anything a try. I can wire and solder no problem. I'm obviously not looking for "vintage correct" otherwise I'd have bought another 1964 body that wasn't butchered up and went factory wiring It's not worth anything except as parts now. I traded it for a $100 phone bill back when you could still buy them for $100 or less at any pawn shop. I want this to be useful, but obviously not like anyone else's. |
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Post by reTrEaD on Aug 3, 2022 12:34:33 GMT -5
It's an open frame switch. This one. I've just realised the pictured switch has six terminals and therefore is a full DPDT ON/ON/ON — is that correct? If so, that potentially opens up yet more possibilities. I believe it may be similar to the switch Gibson used in their 3-HB guitars. More capable than single pole Neck/Both/Bridge, but less than a double pole a/both/b.  |
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Post by Yogi B on Aug 3, 2022 15:08:26 GMT -5
I came up naught for four, against the options I previously mentioned for the conflict between the series & dark modes I have thought of another way around that problem: we can rearrange the positions. One switch can select between: parallel / series / neck+cap. The other selects: in phase / out of phase / off. I can see a way of doing that but it involves leaving the neck pickup hanging from hot when the bridge alone is selected. That would be this (I've left out the treble bleed to avoid crowding the diagram even more): Also I've just realised the arrangement of the diagram in your OP appears implies the guitar & thus you, yourself, are lefthanded (though the controls are still wired with clockwise as max, i.e. righthanded, though I understand this is often a consequence of a lack of availability of reverse-log pots). I can flip the above diagram if that's the case. I've just realised the pictured switch has six terminals and therefore is a full DPDT ON/ON/ON — is that correct? If so, that potentially opens up yet more possibilities. I believe it may be similar to the switch Gibson used in their 3-HB guitars. That's what the name "3-Way Toggle Switch for 3-Pickup Guitars" would also suggest, but I can just about see six (7, incl. chassis ground) terminals in the image. On the left is a higher contrast version of the original image, you can more clearly see what is visible of the 6 th terminal plus the very edge of the centre ground lug. On the right is a photo of the chrome version of seemingly the same switch from MattB's link to WDMusic, albeit from a much better angle to show all the terminals. I didn't think it would be a/both/b + c/both/d — it'll be a/b/b + c/c/d like a typical DPDT ON/ON/ON i.e. the lower pole in that Gibson diagram plus a mirrored duplicate. |
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Post by newey on Aug 3, 2022 20:47:01 GMT -5
I didn't think it would be a/both/b + c/both/d — it'll be a/b/b + c/c/d like a typical DPDT ON/ON/ON i.e. the lower pole in that Gibson diagram plus a mirrored duplicate. Hmmm. Couldn't find a diagram for that particular make, but switchcraft makes a similar switch that seems to operate a bit differently. The Guitar Electronics link led me to this:  |
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blooze
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Post by blooze on Aug 3, 2022 21:32:51 GMT -5
Also I've just realised the arrangement of the diagram in your OP appears implies the guitar & thus you, yourself, are lefthanded (though the controls are still wired with clockwise as max, i.e. righthanded, though I understand this is often a consequence of a lack of availability of reverse-log pots). I can flip the above diagram if that's the case. I’m right handed. I really wasn’t thinking about anything but making the connections to begin with. Thank you for the diagram. I should have the switch on Friday. I can check it’s operation then if y’all would like? |
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Post by reTrEaD on Aug 3, 2022 21:43:33 GMT -5
I didn't think it would be a/both/b + c/both/d — it'll be a/b/b + c/c/d like a typical DPDT ON/ON/ON i.e. the lower pole in that Gibson diagram plus a mirrored duplicate. That sounds right. The inner (stationary) leaves would be the equivalent to the lower-left and upper-right throws of a DPDT on-on-on. The next (moving) leaves would be equivalent to the poles. In a typical Gibson toggle, that's all there is, and we usually connect the lugs of the inner leaves together. However this switch has outer (stationary) leaves that would be the equivalent to the upper-left and lower-right throws of the DPDT on-on-on  |
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blooze
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Post by blooze on Aug 3, 2022 21:47:14 GMT -5
I didn't think it would be a/both/b + c/both/d — it'll be a/b/b + c/c/d like a typical DPDT ON/ON/ON i.e. the lower pole in that Gibson diagram plus a mirrored duplicate. That sounds right. The inner (stationary) leaves would be the equivalent to the lower-left and upper-right throws of a DPDT on-on-on. The next (moving) leaves would be equivalent to the poles. In a typical Gibson toggle, that's all there is, and we usually connect the lugs of the inner leaves together. However this switch has outer (stationary) leaves that would be the equivalent to the upper-left and lower-right throws of the DPDT on-on-on I just wanted black to match the knobs  |
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Post by reTrEaD on Aug 3, 2022 22:01:52 GMT -5
I just wanted black to match the knobs *giggle* |
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blooze
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Post by blooze on Aug 4, 2022 9:09:52 GMT -5
So if you were to wire this switch as a typical 3-way with two pickups it would look like this, correct?
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Post by newey on Aug 4, 2022 10:19:28 GMT -5
When you get this switch, I suggest testing it with a multimeter to be sure how it works. The Switchcraft drawing I posted above is functionally quite different from what you and others are assuming, and the Switchcraft switch looks the same (and says it is also for 3-pickup LPs). Only difference I can see is that Switchcraft's is an open-frame design, but it looks functionally the same, except there is only the one center lug rather than two joined together.
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