GN2 CHALLENGE: HH + Standard 5-way = ?

[reTrEaD]

For decades, Ibanez has produced guitars in HH configuration with a 5-way lever switch. But that requires a special switch (2502N). The result is:
Neck HB
Neck HB (coils in parallel)
Neck HB + Bridge HB
Inner coils from each HB
Bridge HB

We can mimic this or create even more interesting combinations by use of a superswitch.

We can't accomplish what Ibanez did with a standard 5-way. But can we do anything all that's even somewhat useful?

If you choose to accept the challenge, you can use an Oak Grigby, CRL, or Import standard strat 5-way and indicate what manufacturer's color codes are in your drawing.

I've placed one possible solution in the spoiler below. You can proceed without the benefit of seeing it, or view it and try to do something different.

HH + Standard 5-way = ?

SPOILER: Click to show

(Seymour Duncan color codes)

[Yogi B]

Sept 12, 2023 8:30:32 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

If you choose to accept the challenge, you can use an Oak Grigsby, CRL, or Import standard strat 5-way and indicate what manufacturer's color codes are in your drawing.

My pickup's come from the attic of a guy called Shem: the copper must have oxidised, all the wires are green! Additionally, I hope that maintaining good wiring practices (regarding deselected coils) isn't a requirement.

The below is a relative of my "Brian May with a 5-way" scheme without the extra DPDT(s) and tweaked to utilise four coils. Whilst it provides a reasonably varied set of options (all of which are nominally hum-cancelling), there is at least one coil shunted in each position. (In fact, it's probably not a surprise that the list of shunted coils reads like a list of Strat positions: Nn, Nn+Bs, Bs, Bs+Bn, Bn).

The actual (suggested) selections are: 1 — Bridge HB (series); 2 — Bn + Ns; 3 — (Bn × Nn) + Ns; 4 — Neck HB (parallel); 5 — Bs × Nn. Though obviously the coils could be swapped around for a few variations, e.g. swapping bridge/neck south coils for each other (whereas swapping north coils just reverses the switch order).

SPOILER: Click to show

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Also, reTrEaD, Mysterian's truth table currently shows the neck pickup selected in pos 3 which it isn't.

[JohnH]

Yogi's will be hard to beat! But I might work one out to do what I would seek on an HH.

Do you want to set any rules about other parts? like pots or added switches?

[reTrEaD]

Sept 12, 2023 15:22:51 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

Also, reTrEaD, Mysterian's truth table currently shows the neck pickup selected in pos 3 which it isn't.

Thanks! Fixed now.

[reTrEaD]

Sept 12, 2023 16:43:15 GMT -5 JohnH said:

Do you want to set any rules about other parts? like pots or added switches?

No additional limitations.
Must be an HH pickup configuration.
Must use a standard 5-way (domestic or import). (Not a superswitch or megaswitch M or 2502N.)
Other than that, get creative.

[newey]

This is totally non-original, I simply swapped a bridge HB for the bridge SC in Deaf Eddie's HS scheme discussed here.



Shunting and hanging coils both.

EDIT: RT has pointed out I have errors in the truth table, I will have to straighten that out.

[reTrEaD]

Sept 12, 2023 15:22:51 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

Additionally, I hope that maintaining good wiring practices (regarding deselected coils) isn't a requirement.

Avoiding the shunting and/or hanging from hot of the unused coils is always a goal, not a requirement. When using a superswitch, it's more often than not, relatively easy to avoid these issues and still accomplish the desired goal. In this challenge, if we limit ourselves to never shunt or hang from hot, there isn't much fruit to pick. We end up with results like the Mysterian which have two usable but not terribly exciting choices in addition to the three usual suspects.

Sept 12, 2023 16:43:15 GMT -5 JohnH said:

Yogi's will be hard to beat!

Indeed.

It does suffer from unused coils being shunted and only has ONE of the three usual suspects, it does have FOUR fully hum-cancelling combinations. This bears deeper evaluation.

If the HBs are oriented as the diagram tends to slightly imply,

5) Inner coils in series
This is fully hum-canceling and relatively desirable. I'd like this one better if it was a parallel combination but since the spacing is wider than a HB, it will still be quite different and interesting.

4) Neck coils in parallel
This is a good substitute for one of the usual suspects. Fully hum-canceling and (arguably) better than a series-connected Neck HB, since the lower inductance will make it sound brighter in a location where we have a strong fundamental in relation to harmonics.

3) Hum-Sing
This is the only selection that isn't fully hum-canceling. At first glance I thought this was a traditional hum-sing with Neck single in parallel with the series-connected Bridge HB. But it is not. Instead, the neck-most Neck coil is in parallel with the series combination of the "Inner" coils. Not quite sure to expect from this but I reckon it will be reasonably good and interesting.

2) Outer coils in parallel
This is as close to a "Tele" as we can get in a HH configuration. Fully hum-canceling and desirable.

1) Bridge coils in series
One of the usual suspects and very desirable. And fully hum-canceling.

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If I were to design a HH using a superswitch or Megaswitch M with no additional switching, I'd be sure to include three of these five combinations exactly as they appear here. I'd use the two series-connected HBs in parallel with each other instead of the Hum-Sing. I'd also do the Inner coils in parallel rather than series. All things considered, there's a LOT to like here.

[JohnH]

For me, after trying quite a few HH and HSS schemes, I keep circling back to my favourite for what I use on my LP.

Personally, I much prefer a full or partly bypassed coil cut on an HB, rather than parallel wired HB, despite humcancelling issues. It's edgier and a nicer contrast to the full HB.

I'm hamfisted with quick switch changes so I want my best settings at each end of the switch. I usually want to swipe quickly from a neck single to a full bridge humbucker.

My build would use two tone pots, one for each pickup, wired using three lugs to do single at 10, Hb at 9 and then Hb with tone rolled off below that. I've had this on my LP for 15 years and I never want to change it! The neck goes to a full coil cut, the bridge version is via a cap to keep a bit more weight.

Volume can be one or two knobs, to suit either a Strat or LP layout.

But then, the switch is only three position, so it's a Tele switch rather than a Strat switch, or a toggle.

So I'm disqualified unless I can make it more complicated!

(an LP version of the above is in the schematics
guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/3167/simple-les-paul-mod-parts
)

[JohnH]

Here's one, just based on minor wrangling of the main switch, no added tricks. It provides what IMO are the five most useful sounds that an HH can make, being each separate humbucker, B and N combos of humbuckers or singles, and a neck single coil.





It puts the usual selections Bridge Hb, both Hbs, Neck Hb into positions 1, 2 and 3, and then does Bn + Ns, and Ns at positions 4 and 5.

So I'd get the Bridge humbucker and neck single, where I'd want them for quick switch-swiping between them, plus a bonus Tele-like quack sound. The three usual HH sounds are available and overall there are four humcancelling settings.

Some shunting and hanging is involved though, just for the two coil-cut options.

[Yogi B]

Sept 13, 2023 12:08:09 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

3) Hum-Sing
This is the only selection that isn't fully hum-cancelling. At first glance I thought this was a traditional hum-sing with Neck single in parallel with the series-connected Bridge HB. But it is not. Instead, the neck-most Neck coil is in parallel with the series combination of the "Inner" coils.

Well, inner coils by the more typical SNNS orientation, but with the arrangement you're assuming in the other positions: it's the neck inner & bridge outer that are in series.

Though, the more important thing is the series coils are the same polarity/winding. As such we have two coils worth of let's say CCW hum, but with the approx. 2:1 impedance ratio of this branch to the lone coil, this gets divided down to around the equivalent of 2/3 of a coil of CCW hum. For the other parallel branch we start with only one coil worth of CW hum, but it's subject to the complement of the previous voltage divider — a reduction by only 1/3 — down to 2/3 of a coil of CW hum. 2/3 CCW hum + 2/3 CW hum = hum-cancelling.

Doing similar for the outputs: Bn contributes 1/3, Nn contributes 1/3, and Ns contributes 2/3. The overall output, thus being 4/3 of an individual coil and comprising of a 25%/75% bridge/neck split. So, perhaps making for a better stand-in for an actual neck single coil than what is achieved by neck parallel (owing to this combination being just a little louder & a little brighter).

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A different scheme, which focuses a little more on these atypical combinations (including the series/parallel dual of that discussed above), can be had if we're okay about sharing the series link across the humbuckers:

SPOILER: Click to show