Question: "Red Special" AND a 5-way switch Wiring scheme?

[ssstonelover]

Hi Guys,
My question is how to integrate the Brian May Red Special wiring alongside a 5-way switch with the ability to shuttle between switch systems.

EDIT June 18, 2024: for those who want to see the finalized (and working) drawings, you can go here Brian May Series / Strat Parallel "Dual Wiring Scheme", now back to this post.....

Overview: I would do the Brian May wiring with DPDT on-on-on switches and the 5-way might be the "import" inline version. Looks like a 4PDT on-on is needed for shuttling between wirings.

I found these resources:
Herve Senni Red Special with on-on-on switches This was his  this diagram Scheme

From that I made a simplified Red Special wiring diagram (right image) and then used it to help me work out what a combo system which includes that and a 5-way would look like (left image, the one I need help with). There may be several ways to do the diagram that are more efficient, plus this one may have serious errors (the reason for requesting assistance).
Please weigh in on this. Thanks!  If the image is hard to read (left one) I can enlarge and resend the detail around the switches

[JohnH]

I can appreciate the intent. With this, you could have a standard and familiar set of Strat single and parallel sounds, and then with the one 4pdt toggle, flick to any preset mix of BM series sounds with phase. The on-on-on's are rather small and fiddly, but you can set them up before and use the other switches while playing.

I haven't traced the diagram.

The issue is that there are 2x3 = 6 pickup wires needing control,and only 4 poles on the main BM-Strat toggle. I'm not seeing a way around that with a 4 pole toggle. But that's not the same as saying that Yogi B can't see a solution. If there is an answer short of finding a more complex switch, it is probably to find 2 out of 6 wires that can be connected full time to both switching sets without interfering. It may be a wire from B and one from N, since these never get bridged in Strat positions 2 and 4.

Or, we can of course, extend Strat wiring into series modes, or alternatively add parallel wiring to BM schemes.

[sumgai]

sss,


The first problem I saw was when we select series mode, and we've left the 5-way such that it combines two adjacent pups (N+M or M+B). If we select a series combo where one of the two chosen pups is also in that parallel combination, what happens? The hot lead for one pup is now connected to the ground lead of the other in series mode, but both hot leads are connect at the same time on the 5-way. Ergo, we have zero signal at the output jack.

This means that there's gonna be some fiddly-fiddly going on when going from one mode to the other, or else there's gonna be some serious hair-pulling and teeth-gnashing when Simon and Garfunkle's top seller suddenly becomes evident. (That's "The Sounds of Silence" for you youngsters. )

I don't see a way to overcome that, even with a permanent hot-to-output and negative lead-to-circuit ground lash-up. But as usual, these days most of us just throw our hands up in the air and let YogiB save the day.

HTH




sumgai

[stevewf]

Jun 9, 2024 23:11:05 GMT -5 sumgai said:

 But as usual, these days most of us just throw our hands up in the air and let YogiB save the day.

That makes me laugh because I myself have been saved by YogiB more than once. Then it makes me sigh.

YogiB has described in an earlier GN2 thread a way to define virtual networks and then figure out how to interconnect them; I feel that if I (or any guitar wiring person) could adopt that method, there'd be a society to rely on for the answers we need.

Then I sigh again, because I should learn it! but my 62-year old bowl of tofu (brain) seems to get stiffer every year, and it becomes impervious to new marinades, and it's smoother albeit slower to keep drawing and erasing.

[ssstonelover]

Jun 9, 2024 20:31:28 GMT -5 JohnH said:

I haven't traced the diagram.
The issue is that there are 2x3 = 6 pickup wires needing control, and only 4 poles on the main BM-Strat toggle. I'm not seeing a way around that with a 4 pole toggle. But that's not the same as saying that Yogi B can't see a solution. If there is an answer short of finding a more complex switch, it is probably to find 2 out of 6 wires that can be connected full time to both switching sets without interfering. It may be a wire from B and one from N, since these never get bridged in Strat positions 2 and 4.

Or, we can of course, extend Strat wiring into series modes, or alternatively add parallel wiring to BM schemes.

I can appreciate it is a daunting issue. I took another look at this, revised the sketch (see below) and took a wire from "M hot" and "M ground" to kill the bridging positions 2 and 4 so interaction to the 5-way is wacked down (hopefully to nothingness). I also made dashed connections from the 4PDT for the UP and Down positions to more easily visualize 'dead wires' which now can give us a better way to look for remaining interactions with the 3 DPDT switches. One sketch for each of the 2 4PDT positions to break this down more easily. Yogi B could really help on this, he does have the knack for these wacko schemes, hope he chimes in

[stevewf]

Or how about a rotary switch? Pretty sure there are 6P2T ones around.

With that, you could just grab each of the pickup leads and send them to the May switches or send them to the 5-way and gnd. The two hot outputs would join at the master tone/vol.

[ssstonelover]

Jun 9, 2024 23:11:05 GMT -5 sumgai said:

sss,
The first problem I saw was when we select series mode, and we've left the 5-way such that it combines two adjacent pups (N+M or M+B). If we select a series combo where one of the two chosen pups is also in that parallel combination, what happens? The hot lead for one pup is now connected to the ground lead of the other in series mode, but both hot leads are connect at the same time on the 5-way. Ergo, we have zero signal at the output jack.
HTH
sumgai

For sure Sumgai. Accordingly I reworked the connections to the 5-way to eliminate unintentional N+M or M+B, if I did it right. Basically I moved M+ and M- to the 4PDT. 

[ssstonelover]

Jun 10, 2024 0:32:40 GMT -5 stevewf said:

Or how about a rotary switch? Pretty sure there are 6P2T ones around.
With that, you could just grab each of the pickup leads and send them to the May switches or send them to the 5-way and gnd. The two hot outputs would join at the master tone/vol.

Intriguing idea. I kind of want to solve it with the stated switch first though. Some guy over at Guitar Wiring (a private Facebook Group) has one built and operational so it's kind of bugging me, that is got to be solvable with the right thinking. Maybe I have tofu in my brain LOL.

[JohnH]

An enigmatic picture, and a tangle of wires. But I'll believe it!

I teach engineering design, and one of my points is that in order to solve a problem, you have to suspend any disbelief and work within a mindset that a solution is possible, or else you will never find a solution.

It reminds me of a short SF story from the 1950's, about 'anti-gravity'. A group of eminent scientists were shown film evidence about a lone genius who had invented an anti-gravity machine, but then died testing it while flying up into the sky. They visited his lab, and were tasked with recreating the machine. After a couple of weeks they had something that worked, crudely. The evidence had all been faked, but it was enough to unlock their disbelief and allow a solution to be found!

[ssstonelover]

Jun 10, 2024 17:00:08 GMT -5 JohnH said:

In order to solve a problem, you have to suspend any disbelief and work within a mindset that a solution is possible, or else you will never find a solution.

Well John, I like your story and mindset, which rings true. I can be persistent, but this one takes the cake. I've spent (again today) far too many hours on this with no breakthrough, so I'm looking at things wrong, I just don't have the training (systematic analytic method) to crack this and intuition/brainstorming is not working this time, too many variable for this brain to juggle.
The strange thing is it's something I'm seeing more as a challenge than as something I'd really implement. I have other wirings which patch together far more easily, and give as much variation or more (but without the phase detail).
I thought to do a kind of "breadboarding" to play with options quickly (using a cast-off pickguard), but I'm running out of connectors (and I had 4 bags of them!) and it's getting far too unwieldy, and I have an awful lot more lugs to connect, so that idea is a dead end too. Well, this has been a humbling experience.

I need someone else to pick up the challenge, pass a hint, whatever... I'm spent.

[newey]

As JohnH noted, 6 poles (On-On configuration) would do the trick. Each pickups hot and ground is switched to the 5-way or to the Red Special switching. There may be a more elegant method, but at least I can visualize how the wiring would go.

6PDT On-On Toggles are available from either Mouser or Digikey in the $30-$40 range. So, price is one issue, and you would need to measure closely to check that it would fit.

[JohnH]

I had a go, not sure about it...



Its using a 4pdt toggle, S1, to switch from BMay mode to Strat mode.

S2 is a standard Strat switch (no exact symbol for that so shown as a 2P5T). Its using its two sides to switch hot and ground

S3 to S5 are the BMay mode on-on-on switches

Its shown in Strat mode, position 2 B+M.  The BMay switches are in middle positions, pickups off (but the switches are not active in Strat mode). So B+ and M+ are hot, as is N+, but the lower end of N is not connected to anything apart from floating switches.  M is fully switched away from the BMay wiring.

But the question is: Which other settings might cause unwanted connections? I thought Id post to see if anyone wants a wire tracing puzzle!
 

[Yogi B]

Jun 10, 2024 17:00:08 GMT -5 JohnH said:

An enigmatic picture, and a tangle of wires. But I'll believe it!

I'm more sceptical. Well, I'll believe that it works, just not without caveats.

From what I can make out, I think Vinnie Irvine's wiring is as per the following diagram:

SPOILER: Click to show

It suffers from the shunting issues that sumgai noted, meaning that the series mode won't always work as intended if the 5-way is in position 2 or 4 (sometimes shorting pickups that should be on, other times adding in an extra pickup in parallel). The solution is the same: disconnect the middle pickup from the 5-way switch whilst in series mode, and thankfully there's a spare pole on the 4PDT to do just that.

For the Strat mode the issues occur only when one of the selected pickups has its series switch set to OoP — selecting OoP connects the pickup's hot (and the guitar's output, to which that is connected) to ground. This can't be solved as easily, but even as this design stands it's probably one of the least worse imperfect options in my opinion. Yes, having at least two dead spots across the 5-way whenever one of the pickups is switched OoP is quite a large proportion of the available positions, but it's also regular and predictable. (I'd prefer that than fewer dead spots occurring in only an obscure handful of positions.)

---

Jun 11, 2024 6:59:38 GMT -5 JohnH said:

I had a go, not sure about it...

But the question is: Which other settings might cause unwanted connections?

Unwanted, sure, but nothing that actually interferes with the selecting of pickups.

Whenever S4 is in the centre position (off) one end of B is connected to one end of N, this causes one of those pickups (N in pos. 1 & 2, B in pos. 4 & 5) to hang from hot or ground (depending on S3 / S5) — but the key thing is that (because S2 switches both the hot & ground sides) this pickup is hanging rather than unwantedly becoming selected or causing the output to be shunted.

---

Jun 10, 2024 17:00:08 GMT -5 JohnH said:

I teach engineering design, and one of my points is that in order to solve a problem, you have to suspend any disbelief and work within a mindset that a solution is possible, or else you will never find a solution.

Also: KISS / humour the 'straightforward' solution.

The approach I was trying was keeping one pickup (neck or bridge) permanently grounded and switching it on or off in series mode using an SPDT ON/ON, or 4PDT ON/ON/ON to include the (third, redundant) phase reversal (relative to the other pickups — flipping those two instead). With only a 4PDT series/parallel switch it gets closer to acceptable (with fewer interactions than what I make of Vinnie Irvine's scheme plus the suggested tweak) — to work correctly this would require a 5PDT.

The problems this has (with a 4PDT) are caused by not being able to fully switch the other two pickups & hot away from the series switching, thus those having a path to ground via the permanently grounded pickup. At that point, I should've tried a version using both sides of the 5-way, but was dissuaded from doing so because switching the grounding felt like a step in the wrong direction.

---

Finally, just a note regarding a 6PDT, simply tying the pickup leads to a pole each would leave unaffected the path through the series switches when all are in the off position, shunting the output of the 5-way. Hardly unacceptable, but a minor wrinkle.

[sumgai]

John,




Never mind, I had momentary brain fart. All is good, carry on.







sumgai

[JohnH]

Thanks for looking at that Yogi B, newey and sumgai and thanks ssstonelover for posing the problem

And I think that an occasional hot hang is not too bad when trying to solve such a puzzle.

[ssstonelover]

Jun 11, 2024 18:17:00 GMT -5 JohnH said:

Thanks for looking at that Yogi B, newey and sumgai and thanks ssstonelover for posing the problem

And I think that an occasional hot hang is not too bad when trying to solve such a puzzle.

Again thanks to Yogi B, newey, sumgai and JohnH for looking at this puzzle. I spent the better part of the day working on this (again) but solving various connections problems still leaves the 2+4 of the 5-Way doing funny stuff. Yogi's scheme seems most comprehensive. Also he had a good suggestion for fixing the middle pickup issue, "It suffers from the shunting issues that sumgai noted, meaning that the series mode won't always work as intended if the 5-way is in position 2 or 4 (sometimes shorting pickups that should be on, other times adding in an extra pickup in parallel). The solution is the same: disconnect the middle pickup from the 5-way switch whilst in series mode, and thankfully there's a spare pole on the 4PDT to do just that."

I have taken the liberty to rework Yogi's drawing to get that pesky interaction under control, that's about all I was able to do (successfully), my personal schematics over the past 3-4 days ended up as dead ends, though it was still a good learning exercise.

[Yogi B]

Jun 11, 2024 18:17:00 GMT -5 JohnH said:

And I think that an occasional hot hang is not too bad when trying to solve such a puzzle.

Especially since there's already series positions that have coils hanging from hot due to using DPDT ON/ON/ONs, from pickups that are turned off 'ahead' (closer to hot) in the series chain. A reason to possibly consider swapping the ordering B & N in the series chain (on the assumption that lower wind pickups should pick up less interference when hanging from hot) and also that then the classic N & M wouldn't have the bridge hanging from hot. (On the other hand, I think the neck is the ground-most on the actual Red Special — though, I wouldn't hold that up as an example of perfect wiring since, despite using DPDTs for the on/off switches, it shunts the pickups to turn them off.)

Jun 11, 2024 19:44:15 GMT -5 ssstonelover said:

Yogi's scheme seems most comprehensive.

If I was successful in copying what I could glean from the photos, it's not really my scheme: it's Vinnie Irvine's.

However, JohnH's is the one that actually solves all the major problems.

I probably should've made that clearer in my previous post. Really the discussion of Irvine's wiring became largely irrelevant after JohnH's schematic, but I'd already drawn up the VI diagram & written the surrounding part of the post, so I included it anyway.

Also Yogi had a good suggestion for fixing the middle pickup issue, "It suffers from the shunting issues that sumgai noted, meaning that the series mode won't always work as intended if the 5-way is in position 2 or 4 (sometimes shorting pickups that should be on, other times adding in an extra pickup in parallel). The solution is the same: disconnect the middle pickup from the 5-way switch whilst in series mode, and thankfully there's a spare pole on the 4PDT to do just that."

I have taken the liberty to rework Yogi's drawing to get that pesky interaction under control

I deliberately only mentioned disconnection from the 5-way: however, though previously I implied that I'd prefer the logical consistency of having any switch OoP equalling a bad time in parallel mode, now faced with it there is a somewhat pleasing symmetry of that only being the case for the N & B switches.

(Doing the 'full' switching of M+ between the 5-way & its series switch eliminates parallel mode dead spots in positions 2, 3 & 4 when only the middle series switch is OoP; though with the bridge and/or neck set OoP, there would still be the issue in positions 1 & 2 and/or 4 & 5 respectively.)

But, as above this is now a moot point — use JohnH's scheme it suffers none of these problems.

... that's about all I was able to do (successfully), my personal schematics over the past 3-4 days ended up as dead ends, though it was still a good learning exercise.

Starting out by having the 5-way doing the ground side switching, you were closer than me (or apparently Irvine) to a correct solution. And, looking back at it, your second diagram is only 4 wire swaps (or when boiled down to a schematic, a splitting of two nets) away from JohnH's schematic.

[ssstonelover]

Jun 12, 2024 3:58:53 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

However, JohnH's is the one that actually solves all the major problems.
I probably should've made that clearer in my previous post. Really the discussion of Irvine's wiring became largely irrelevant after JohnH's schematic, but I'd already drawn up the VI diagram & written the surrounding part of the post, so I included it anyway.

......But, as above this is now a moot point — use JohnH's scheme it suffers none of these problems.

Starting out by having the 5-way doing the ground side switching, you were closer than me (or apparently Irvine) to a correct solution. And, looking back at it, your second diagram is only 4 wire swaps (or when boiled down to a schematic, a splitting of two nets) away from JohnH's schematic.

You guys Yogi B are really giving me a MASTER CLASS on wiring. 

JohnH is the key eh? OK, my bad, and it's really no surprise, he is a master.  I will redouble my effort to understand his wiring. Frankly I'm too used to looking at parts (and wires) to figure things out.  JohnH's circuit drawing is all switch connection symbology so is the better way to look at things) so I'll have to bear down and learn how how to read it properly, I've been lazy about that stuff overall. Having the S1 spread out in 4 places was throwing me for a loop and reading S3,4,5 (the 3 way switches) which (just show two 'wipers coming from the toggle are shown was tripping me up) but of course there are only two wipers,,,duh.  Orientation and putting on my thinking cap. I will set my goal as now translating that to a parts and wires diagram (as well as learning the underlying symbols far better!) as now that I'm turning my full attention to John's work, and have "the dark ages" is being replaced by "enlightenment", a very good thing.

Give me some hours and I will have more worked out. 

[JohnH]

Good luck! The schematic way of showing a circuit is the best and only way to think through and visualise, smell, and taste how a circuit functions in terms of signal flow. Once that's done, then a wiring diagram is needed to translate that to how it is built physically.

Simple circuits can omit one of these steps, given an experienced builder such as yourself. But this one needed some inventing, and a schematic allowed it all to be untangled and teased apart.

The first step is to figure out the real positions of switches and how they fit. Then, for the wiring diagram, you might pull them a bit further apart but in the same orientation so there's more space to draw wires clearly. Then you just work through the schematic wire by wire, hooking it up on the diagram.

If you're planning to build this, I could help with the diagram but not for a couple of weeks. But, I'd really encourage you to have a go!

One way to crack the code might be to take a simple familiar circuit, like a standard Strat, and try to work backwards to sketch it as a schematic?

[ssstonelover]

JohnH, thanks for making the schematic, and I have been working hard to turn it into a representation of a physical layout.
Here it is 'hot off the press'. I think it should track closely to your schematic.
(Note: I added switch info on the left, maybe useful educational training for potential users, who may not be versed with some of these switches.)

John, I sure had to stare at the basic wiring enough, so adding your schematic was in the end not as bad as I thought it would be. I just had to dig deeper and work the old noggin, a muscle that needs to be exercised, so this was a good thing!
I never took any formal circuit / electrical courses, but learning is learning....and I'm getting better. Your suggestion of making some simple schematics on my own of simple circuits (like a Strat) would indeed get me better versed in their logic; good idea.

If you think I'm there (or this needs just a simple fix you can supply easily) then I will then redraw it for the purpose of making to 'foolproof' for those who need to 'paint by numbers' with wide and obvious wire separation for easy wire tracking; a final version so to speak.
If it needs more than I captured correctly, well then maybe I will need your help later, but let's hope I've got the gist of this now! I am in your debt, thanks for extending yourself. I am definitely in the mood to build one of these, if just to justify all the work LOL! I have all the parts for sure, and some guitars that could make good test mules.

[JohnH]

That looks like a clear diagram, and Ill check it over in the next day or so.

A couple of things first off:

For the 5 way switch, being an in-line type, are the two adjacent common lugs internally connected? or are they electrically separated? we need separated, as with a standard 5 way but I heard that some inline types may have them joined, which is ok for standard wiring.

The on-on-on's look to be as usual for the middle setting, if looking from the back.

[ssstonelover]

JohnH, thanks as always, and sorry for intruding on your time. Whenever you can run your eyes over this will work for me.

The 'import' 8 pin type 5-way is not internally 'bridged' at the 'commons', so both sides work fully independently.
There are also 7 pin types with a single common made by more than one company, and I've used them (the Samick company had/has them on some low end guitars made in the 1980s for example).
I even drew up a diagram of the 'Samick type' as there were a bunch of questions I've seen about it over the years. Samick

I can certainly make a diagram version of the "5-way meets Brian May" diagram with the normal CTL / Oak Grigsby version too. A lot of people freak about the import version as it is fairly unknown to them though it graces millions of guitars. I find it works just fine. Failures of either type (low end versions) are fairly rare but I've seen them.

The DPDT on-on-on illustrated is the popular type-2. The type 1 has a 'reversal' at the end terminal internal connection for the middle position.
I have inventory of both types and it has gotten me in trouble before, so I check with a multimeter, when I build.

[JohnH]

All good, we can base it on the 8-lug inline switch that you show

[JohnH]

hi ssstonelover

I traced through the diagram and it all looks good to me, to match the schematic.

I liked how you had a plan for organising the wire colours so that hots, grounds and series connections etc, follow through with the same colours to where they go to make it easy to trace. My only suggestion is to note that on my screen, with my eyes, the colour of the purple wires from M blend quite closely, into the brown tone of the switches.

I hope you'll build it, in due course, and good luck if you do!

[ssstonelover]

JohnH, thanks so much for checking this out. Once your schematic (diagrammed switch logic) clicked in my head, it was easy to draw this out end-to-end.

I have further worked the color contrasts (and color logic) on an 'upgrade' set of drawings.
I'll be posting these as a completed wiring diagram set on our forum. You will be acknowledged/credited, you made it solvable and obvious after all.

By the way, I looked up teaching engineering design, I think you embody it well and are an excellent mentor to boot.

Your schematic, the Rosetta Stone that decrypted the wire mess into ruthless logic, thanks again.