Brian May Series / Strat Parallel "Dual Wiring Scheme"

[ssstonelover]

What if you could have both all the Brian May "Red Special" combinations and all the standard Strat combinations on a single pickguard?
What if with a single flip of switch you could go from one to the other cleanly?
What if you could do this with fewer switches than with what the "Red Special usually sports alone?

This new layout has a total 5 switches:
3 to work the Brian May more efficiently (instead of 6) Note: this is not some new invention, yet is especially handy here
1 5-way switch for the Strat
1 master switch to flip from Strat and "Red Special"

There are no unexpected 'dead spots' or wiring 'cross talk' as the 2 circuits are independent of each other.
If you are on the Red Special (RS) circuit and deliberately turn the 3 switches to off (middle positions) you can 'turn off your guitar' but that would be intentional and require the master switch also in RS mode, so does not count.

The impetus of all this work came from Vinnie Irvine who showed such a concept over at a Facebook group, Guitar Wiring I belong to. As I later found out his scheme had some issues, but I did not know that at the time and as I tried to recreate it on my own I too ran into those issues.... "What did he know that I didn't?" was all I could think. This then become the thread Question: "Red Special" AND a 5-way switch Wiring scheme?. With a lot of help and a breakthrough solution from JohnH (who encouraged but also saw me though a time when I was ready to give up), plus encouragement and help from sumgai, stevewf, newey, Yogi B I got to the end on this. It really is interesting how it all worked out, so that thread is a great read and history in itself, which brings us to this post. Yeah, maybe I had part of the answer like Yogi B said I did, but without JohnH it would have died or been deeply flawed.

EDIT July-18: completed guitar build using one of final schemes (version v.4c far below) here: BrianMay+5-Way Test Guitar and working well

First diagram: with standard 5-way switch, 3 x DPDT on/on/on, 1 x 4PDT on/on



Second diagram: with 'import' 5-way switch, 3 x DPDT on/on/on, 1 x 4PDT on/on


JohnH schematic, which moved the Middle pickup hot and ground to the 4PDT, the S1 switch below (which solved any cross talk between the 2 circuits)

[stevewf]

I realize I'm a bit late to ask about this, but in the schematic, switches S3, S4 and S5 look like DPDT on-on switches, when I thought they were meant to be on-on-on?

[JohnH]

hi stevewf

Yes they are on-on-on. IRL they look the same with the same-looking lugs. In the schematic, they are shown in their middle positions, one pole to the left, one to the right.

I didn't have a particular schematic symbol for on-on-on, but Bethany's layout diagram identifies them as such.

[stevewf]

Thanks. Now I see.

[ssstonelover]

Hi stevewf and JohnH maybe if we see that DPDT on-on-on switch as a long make (2 clicks) with a short break (1 click) and with each side reversed (1 side ooooon-off, the second side off-ooooon) the symbology can be worked out better.
If so. conceptually the chief difference is that the rocker in the middle position bridges terminals in opposite sides of the switch differently meaning that on one side it bridges to the  end terminal on the 'left' when set in the middle, and the second side it bridges with a end terminal on the 'right'. Note: refer to On-On-On mini toggle teardown by @steverfw.

If this is makes sense for these purposes, I've reworked the schematic JohnH made. I'd be curious if this helps, as I think ambiguity could be potentially reduced. 
Worse come-to-worse, it gave me practice working with schematics.
I'd be happy to re-edit the drawing I see more room for improvement

[stevewf]

Jun 17, 2024 18:38:32 GMT -5 ssstonelover said:

Note: I have not pulled these switches apart...

Funny you should mention that. I recently did! I just made a separate thread about it here.

[ssstonelover]

Jun 18, 2024 10:10:50 GMT -5 stevewf said:

Funny you should mention that. I recently did! I just made a separate thread about it here.

Yup, that's a good post. This then is not the classic make-before-break, rather it's a single 'ON' lasting 2 clicks followed by an 'OFF' for the final click. The other side of the pole pair (think DPDT pair) is simply reversed directionally, a no-brainer.

No wonder there is no special schematic for this, though I think what I did still works visually, despite that. The description needs to be altered I guess.
Hm.... I wonder if there is a better way to convey this schematically?

[JohnH]

I think the extra lines on the switch work graphically ok, to illustrate the connections in the middle setting. Sometimes I've drawn something like that on a switch when drawn in a wiring diagram with its six lugs arranged 2x3.

Maybe a dashed or coloured line to make it clear that it's something inside the switch rather than a wire to add? though being a fine line does that too as you show.

On the schematic here, It still works as your version, but now the switches are in the all-on, phase reverse setting, rather than all off. No problem though.

[ssstonelover]

JohnH I took anther stab at illustrating the DPDT on-on-on (left bottom of illustration) and also moved switches for S3/4/5 to 'off'.
I'm kind of liking Ver.2, but as it is a transitory connection, as least in a sense, and if we were going for 'realism', I suppose the broken line version is maybe more realistic? but then again we may need to include an asterisk and an verbal explanation (sigh) even if just only in the margin, so that also a bit weird.....groan.

I suppose a schematic does not have to be 100% reality but it does have to be "blindingly clear" on functional electrical reality. Is that Ver.2 or another way? What works for the viewer best in your opinion?

[JohnH]

I quite like version 4 with the red, but they all show something informative. If there's a standard for this then I guess we'd follow it. Meanwhile, a symbolic representation that doesn't depend too much on particular software features to draw it is good.

I'm using the scheme-it software at the Digikey site for my recent schematics, just because I like the bold line-work. But it's a bit limited in how it represents these less common switches.

[ssstonelover]

JohnH I was truly wondering how you built this all up, and now I know. Very cool. A way less painful approach than how I did it.
I do see they have a "build a symbol" and also an "insert image" feature. I joined their site and have created some 'ready to use' images that are easy to add into an open worksheet once logged into this program.
Images can be sized, rotated, or flipped, per the usual menu choices.

The 1st column represents the program's standard DPDT on-off-on icon, the second column represents my reworks, a DPDT on-on-on (type 2) along with some 'scissoring of that image' into smaller elements (for placement purposes).
If this is the direction to go, or you need changes, then I can download and/or update them for you/us.
(Note: If better switch layouts come to light, I can rework those images to work on this program, I'm pretty sure)


Screenshot from the Sketch-It program with inserted images (2nd column)

[gckelloch]

This is a really useful switching system. Not only because it offers so many options that should all sound good, but that you can configure an option on either side b4 switching to it. One thing to consider is that only two of the PUPs on the BM side require a phase reverse option for all the same options to be available so you could configure an alternative for the bridge PUP switch. One such alternative I once saw on a BM wiring forum was On/Off/Solo. You might try a ~1.5nF cap over the bridge Solo setting? That would make it different than the Strat side bridge PUP setting, and with a useful ~2kHz boost depending on the guitar cable and first preamp amp input C. You could add ~250k R to that setting if you find the peak too strong, or just roll the tone knob back a bit.

[ssstonelover]

Jun 19, 2024 17:26:56 GMT -5 gckelloch said:

This is a really useful switching system.

One thing to consider is that only two of the PUPs on the BM side require a phase reverse option for all the same options to be available so you could configure an alternative for the bridge PUP switch. One such alternative I once saw on a BM wiring forum was On/Off/Solo. You might try a ~1.5nF cap over the bridge Solo setting? That would make it different than the Strat side bridge PUP setting, and with a useful ~2kHz boost depending on the guitar cable and first preamp amp input C. You could add ~250k R to that setting if you find the peak too strong, or just roll the tone knob back a bit.

Thanks.

That's an interesting idea. I did a little paper and pen switch doodling and I can't see how to do that with either a DPDT on-on-on or DPDT on-off-on while keeping the rest of the Brian May circuit intact. Overall there don't seem to be enough free terminals even after removing the 2 phase wires. I'm suspecting it could be accomplished with a 4PDT, maybe even easily. In that case it is just a space issue and with careful planning it may all fit.

The BM scheme with the Solo switching, was that with 6 switches, or the 3 switch type? Do you have a link you can share? I'll take a look.

The ~1.5nF cap is in parallel with the pup, right?

I found this definition of a Solo switch which says it removes volume and tone from the circuit. Guitar Solo Switch.
Is that your definition too? You wrote, "just roll the tone knob back a bit" and as that conflicts with the definition I found, and would affect any wiring scheme, let me know.

[sumgai]

One might profit from keeping in mind that the Fender S1 pot/switch is indeed a 4PDT, and could take the place of the "extra" toggle switch shown in the diagrams.

HTH






sumgai

[ssstonelover]

sumgai, that's a great observation, plus it works as a space saver too *leaving room for other stuff like a 2nd pot with a bass cut (PTB style). The S1 also comes with either a 500K or 250K pot, so depending on needs it could cover a lot of ground.

[stevewf]

Yes, Fender's S-1 switch is a compact answer. It can be very "stealthy". But there are only three options for the looks of its knobs: either traditional "tele" style, or two options in "strat" style knobs with a "Volume" label, either black or parchment. That's the only reason I've never installed one - the cosmetics.

In the present guitar, a "Volume" knob probably wouldn't look right, being positioned as the 2nd knob, especially if its pot functions as a bass or treble cut. Obvious answer is to install it as the 1st knob, or use "tele" style knobs.

[ssstonelover]

The S-1 is pricey, but not in a deal-breaker kind of way, but if it were used in the volume position, then there is more room to populate the pickguard with two tone pots. In that case a G&L type PTB tone pot arrangement of master tone (treble cut, like currently shown), plus a master tone (bass cut which could be useful when on using Brian May settings such as 3 pickups in series) would make a lot of sense.

[JohnH]

} think an S1 could be a great way to reduce the clutter. I've never had one though myself. It doesn't change the schematic but I did see that when drawing the wiring diagram, it has its own unique way that the contacts are laid out and how they flip over, which Ive never locked away in my head. No real problem though with care, but plenty of scope for going wrong!

Great point about how PTB could combine with series wiring, it could be an ideal application for use of the bass cut to trim series muddiness. I'd do it with a no-load pot for the treble cut.

PTB seems like an ideal option for an enhanced tone system on a guitar because unlike most other options, when you turn the knobs to max, there are no losses at all.

Although the bass cut might be useful in all settings, I think I'd consider putting it just into the series chain at the end of S3,4,5, so that it only operates in series mode That way it can be left preset to make a perfect series tone, but not affect the standard Strat settings. Then a quick move to a boosted series sound is just one switch press.

And I liked the customised switch symbols that you made in Digikey Scheme-it. I might try that feature myself. There's a few other parts I'd like to have diagrams for, some switches and also a couple of extra switched jacks.

[sumgai]

In most of the electronics world, a dashed line between terminals usually indicates a permanent internal connection*. Non-dashed lines are usually intended to represent jumpers outside of the switch, to be installed by the person performing the lash-up. Colors help trace signal flow (hint, hint), but they are of little or no consequence when looking at the physical capabilities of a component.

As usual, YMMV.

HTH






sumgai

* Or sometimes a dashed line may indicate an option, usually with a note along the lines of "install extra thingamajig here" or some such.

[ssstonelover]

Jun 20, 2024 15:18:30 GMT -5 sumgai said:

In most of the electronics world, a dashed line between terminals usually indicates a permanent internal connection*. Non-dashed lines are usually intended to represent jumpers outside of the switch, to be installed by the person performing the lash-up. Colors help trace signal flow (hint, hint), but they are of little or no consequence when looking at the physical capabilities of a component.

Good points.
Hmm... only permanent for 2 of the 3 switch positions so I think this falls in some lousy gray area, unless I'm seeing this wrong, but overall I've got to think there must be some representation art (or better) on this in some kind of dusty textbook for EE types somewhere out there, after all we are not reinventing the wheel....

[ssstonelover]

Jun 20, 2024 14:45:22 GMT -5 JohnH said:

I think an S1 could be a great way to reduce the clutter.

Great point about how PTB could combine with series wiring, it could be an ideal application for use of the bass cut to trim series muddiness. I'd do it with a no-load pot for the treble cut.

PTB seems like an ideal option for an enhanced tone system on a guitar because unlike most other options, when you turn the knobs to max, there are no losses at all.

Although the bass cut might be useful in all settings, I think I'd consider putting it just into the series chain at the end of S3,4,5, so that it only operates in series mode That way it can be left preset to make a perfect series tone, but not affect the standard Strat settings. Then a quick move to a boosted series sound is just one switch press.

And I liked the customised switch symbols that you made in Digikey Scheme-it. I might try that feature myself. There's a few other parts I'd like to have diagrams for, some switches and also a couple of extra switched jacks.

I'm looking at making an S-1 version of the wiring (adding the other suggestions too)

Yup: good improvement to have a no-load master treble cut pot, but to make a bass cut pot just for the series path.

Glad the custom switch symbols are of interest. It not hard to make your own, and I bet you will be a faster learner, and there is not much to learn at that.

[ssstonelover]

sumgai and JohnH
--I think I have the S-1 integrated correctly along with no-load and bass cut (with bass cut working over both circuits (first drawing below).
--I am a lot less certain if I have the 2nd drawing below right, that is just getting bass cut on just the series connections, it's something I've not attempted before, so please let me knew what I may have screwed up, I am winging it on this John, "put it just into the series chain at the end of S3,4,5, so that it only operates in series mode"....LOL

OK here it is....
1st version (standard PTB)


2nd version (bass cut on just series side)

[sumgai]

Jun 20, 2024 16:20:17 GMT -5 ssstonelover said:

Good points.
Hmm... only permanent for 2 of the 3 switch positions so I think this falls in some lousy gray area, unless I'm seeing this wrong, but overall I've got to think there must be some representation art (or better) on this in some kind of dusty textbook for EE types somewhere out there, after all we are not reinventing the wheel....

There is.... some commonly accepted representation, that is. And FWIW, not all EE books are dusty... at least not the ones I taught out of, back in the day.

But I did indeed misspeak - the connection is not permanent in the usual sense of the word, it's temporary in that the toggle handle or lever is not in the "proper" position to enable the connection, yet somehow the connection remains in force. How does that happens?

Think of it this way: The switch is actually a shorting, make-before-break type. You've likely encountered this concept in other discussions on this board, as well as elsewhere on the 'net. The dashed line represents the continued connection despite the toggle/lever having been moved to an adjacent position. When the toggle/lever is moved even further away from that position, then the connection is finally fully broken. (And perhaps a new connection involving two pickups has been made.)

Within the switches taken apart by stevewf, the continued connection is caused by the fulcrum disallowing a full-on break, as fully discussed in that other thread. In a standard blade style switch, that action is performed by an oversized piece of metal on the common terminal's slider. Same effect, different technology.

I know, clear as mud, right? But in the long run, the dashed line is understood to mean that if the toggle/lever is not in either of those positions, then no connection exists. Again, colors don't convey that particular bit of information to the person reading the diagram.

HTH







sumgai

[ssstonelover]

Jun 21, 2024 0:31:47 GMT -5 sumgai said:

There is.... some commonly accepted representation, that is. And FWIW, not all EE books are dusty... at least not the ones I taught out of, back in the day.

But I did indeed misspeak - the connection is not permanent in the usual sense of the word, it's temporary in that the toggle handle or lever is not in the "proper" position to enable the connection, yet somehow the connection remains in force. How does that happens?

Think of it this way: The switch is actually a shorting, make-before-break type. You've likely encountered this concept in other discussions on this board, as well as elsewhere on the 'net. The dashed line represents the continued connection despite the toggle/lever having been moved to an adjacent position. When the toggle/lever is moved even further away from that position, then the connection is finally fully broken. (And perhaps a new connection involving two pickups has been made.)

Within the switches taken apart by stevewf, the continued connection is caused by the fulcrum disallowing a full-on break, as fully discussed in that other thread. In a standard blade style switch, that action is performed by an oversized piece of metal on the common terminal's slider. Same effect, different technology.

I know, clear as mud, right? But in the long run, the dashed line is understood to mean that if the toggle/lever is not in either of those positions, then no connection exists. Again, colors don't convey that particular bit of information to the person reading the diagram.

HTH
sumgai

Well said, thanks, I find your logic compelling, and this could be 'best practice' then. You were a prof, eh? Nice.
John Hewitt had mentioned a dashed line would be a strong representation option.
He may have some other motive for preferring a color as this marker.  His preference was not emphatic,  just something he liked, as I understood it.

Overall this symbology (and its logic) is fairly straightforward, once the rudimentary flow/pattern is understood (and that happens quickly if one makes any effort).

[gckelloch]

Jun 19, 2024 19:31:45 GMT -5 ssstonelover said:

Jun 19, 2024 17:26:56 GMT -5 gckelloch said:

This is a really useful switching system.

One thing to consider is that only two of the PUPs on the BM side require a phase reverse option for all the same options to be available so you could configure an alternative for the bridge PUP switch. One such alternative I once saw on a BM wiring forum was On/Off/Solo. You might try a ~1.5nF cap over the bridge Solo setting? That would make it different than the Strat side bridge PUP setting, and with a useful ~2kHz boost depending on the guitar cable and first preamp amp input C. You could add ~250k R to that setting if you find the peak too strong, or just roll the tone knob back a bit.

Thanks.

That's an interesting idea. I did a little paper and pen switch doodling and I can't see how to do that with either a DPDT on-on-on or DPDT on-off-on while keeping the rest of the Brian May circuit intact. Overall there don't seem to be enough free terminals even after removing the 2 phase wires. I'm suspecting it could be accomplished with a 4PDT, maybe even easily. In that case it is just a space issue and with careful planning it may all fit.

The BM scheme with the Solo switching, was that with 6 switches, or the 3 switch type? Do you have a link you can share? I'll take a look.

The ~1.5nF cap is in parallel with the pup, right?

I found this definition of a Solo switch which says it removes volume and tone from the circuit. Guitar Solo Switch.
Is that your definition too? You wrote, "just roll the tone knob back a bit" and as that conflicts with the definition I found, and would affect any wiring scheme, let me know.

I can't remember the BM wiring website or the specifics of the solo option, but I think it was the 6-switch version. I don't know if it will work with your Schema. I guess Solo could also bypass the knobs, but I don't think it's necessary. Maybe it's easier not to? Yes, the ~1.5nF would be in parallel with the PUP. Maybe you could use the bridge PUP switch to swap the tone knob cap instead of the solo option? Whatever works for you.

[ssstonelover]

Jun 22, 2024 23:43:17 GMT -5 gckelloch said:

I can't remember the BM wiring website or the specifics of the solo option, but I think it was the 6-switch version. I don't know if it will work with your Schema. I guess Solo could also bypass the knobs, but I don't think it's necessary. Maybe it's easier not to? Yes, the ~1.5nF would be in parallel with the PUP. Maybe you could use the bridge PUP switch to swap the tone knob cap instead of the solo option? Whatever works for you.

This is what I've been doing, but your idea is more comprehensive. The scheme shown would work all pickups (the example is for another wiring scheme)

SPOILER: Click to show