Capacitors for Guitar

[ChrisK]

FWIW

www.angela.com/catalog/capacitors

[sumgai]

That reminds me, I need to write an article on how capacitors act when used in multiples.

When the intermittent connection is cured (read: when my new monitor arrives and is hooked up), I'll drop that into this thread. The other half knows how I tend to get wordy when logged on (who, me? ;D), so I have to keep these sessions on her computer short and sweet.

But feel free to ask questions (about capacitors) here in this thread, someone will answer them as ASAP as possible.


sumgai

[ChrisK]

That reminds me, I need to write an article on how capacitors act when used in multiples.

Hmmm, sounds like a seriously perilous article.

[sumgai]

Chris,

That reminds me, I need to write an article on how capacitors act when used in multiples.

Hmmm, sounds like a seriously perilous article.

Well, there went my laundry budget for the week, curses!


;D

[ChristoMephisto]

I did have one mod where it has five caps in parallel and it had a slight 'verb to it
it had tone stepping from 01,022,033,047 where i just added more caps inplay
don't know if thats what you meant by multiple caps

[ranchtooth]

Hey another capacitor question I thought I'd just throw into this thread....

On small bear electronics, all the capacitors are listed in units of mf, which I was under the assumption was millifarads.... which is pretty big for our guitar electronics. Is mf in this case the equivalent of microfarads / uf? I dont wanna make an order and find out everything I got was 100 times too capacitive!

[sumgai]

rt,

This is one of those cases where the standards for numbering weren't followed. In the capacitor world, a lower case 'm' does mean 'micro' and not 'milli'. This is the normal operating arena for our (guitarist) needs.

BTW, you would have been one thousand (1,000) times off, not one hundred (100). A 'micro' is one one-thousandth of a 'milli'. To express it like a math major, you're looking at 10^-3 versus 10^-6.



sumgai

[momo]

Yahoooo! ;D, a while back I posted about a 12ax7 blackplate that I found in an old Revere 50's 16mm projector, well there were old capacitors in there... good thing I decided to keep them. Now I read this and I realize I might have somewhat of a little treasure here....

When I finished gutting the projector, I was left with (3) wax .05 mfd "Industrial Condenser Corp", (3) wax .01 mfd from same company, (2)wax Grey Tiger .005mfd,
(1)wax Grey Tiger .05mfd, (1)wax Grey Tiger .02mfd, and (1) 10mfd dry electrolytic
Mighty Midget from "Industrial Condenser Corp".

In there there was also 1 tan color domino like thang that has 6 dots with different colors on it with the leads coming out on both sides.

So how would I use them in the guitar and what should I expect from the tone?
Thanks

[ranchtooth]

Thanks sumgai! Im ordering away with glee now!

[sumgai]

momo,

Yahoooo! ;D, a while back I posted about a 12ax7 blackplate that I found in an old Revere 50's 16mm projector, well there were old capacitors in there... good thing I decided to keep them. Now I read this and I realize I might have somewhat of a little treasure here....

When I finished gutting the projector, I was left with (3) wax .05 mfd "Industrial Condenser Corp", (3) wax .01 mfd from same company, (2)wax Grey Tiger .005mfd,
(1)wax Grey Tiger .05mfd, (1)wax Grey Tiger .02mfd, and (1) 10mfd dry electrolytic
Mighty Midget from "Industrial Condenser Corp".

In there there was also 1 tan color domino like thang that has 6 dots with different colors on it with the leads coming out on both sides.

So how would I use them in the guitar and what should I expect from the tone?
Thanks

You've hit the motherload, to be sure.

That's exactly how most of us started out, cutting up old radios and such, and storing the proceeds in our 'junk boxes'. Hell, we're the original recyclers! ;D

That domino thingie is either a mica or a molded capacitor, the 6 dots are the color code for its value, etc. Rather than my charting out in text form how the code works, here are a couple of good web pages with colorful diagrams and stuff:


radioremembered.org/capcode.htm
(easiest to understand, but not very far reaching)


tpub.com/neets/book2/3g.htm
(all kinds of capacitors)


my.execpc.com/~endlr/markings.html
(worldwide color codes)


www.edasolutions.com/Groups/Tech/ComputerElectricalCalcs.htm
(electrical engineering site, also has on-line calculators, definitions of various terminology, example circuits, etc.)


You probably wanna bookmark all of these, especially the last one. ;D

HTH


sumgai

[momo]

Hey Sumgai, first off all , thanks for all the help sinse i started on guitarnuts ;D....
I readup on the mica dominos, they seem to be of a lower capacitance than the wax ones, I have not been able to correctly value the thing, so i guess trying it will be the thing, but my question would be, is it a better bet from the start to using the wax mustard ones? have you ever seen the dominoes used in a guitar?, also, i have a .01mfd original that came with the guitar, should I replace with mustard .01 or the mustard .05? Ive read that the lower the capacitance, the higher the "cutoff frequency" at witch the cap starts to roll off. would 0.5 be to muddy?, Im just trying to limit the open/closing of the pickguard as its already a pain to do....
thanks!

[sumgai]

momo,

I readup on the mica dominos, they seem to be of a lower capacitance than the wax ones, I have not been able to correctly value the thing, so i guess trying it will be the thing, but my question would be, is it a better bet from the start to using the wax mustard ones?

Dunno, I've never tasted any capacitors with mustard before.

Those units are old, so I'd be very suspicious of how long they'all last in your axe. Personally, I don't think they'll add anything to your overall tone, except maybe some A.P. mojo, baby! ;D

I have you ever seen the dominoes used in a guitar?

Me personally? Nope, never seen one my own self.

Very early Fender Broadcasters had some. They were brought over from Leo's amplifier assembly area, or so the story goes. Not sure of the timeline when Leo started buying and installing waxed ceramic disc-style caps for production guitars, but it couldn't have been much later than that.

i have a .01mfd original that came with the guitar, should I replace with mustard .01 or the mustard .05?

Why replace your current capacitor, is it worn out?

Caps do wear out, due mostly to age. Which brings up Point Number One, above.

A more appropriate question might be, what value cap should you put back in there? Ah, but here we have an opportunity to do some true-blue, dyed in the wool, mad scientist-style experimenting.

I don't recall what guitar you have, but if you can eliminate the current tone cap from the circuit, that would be great. And no, that doesn't mean leave the tone control at 10, it means unsolder the tone circuitry, completely.

Do this: Take a standard, but CHEAP guitar cable, and cut it about a foot from one end. Strip back the insulation of both the outer shielding, and the inner conductor, on each length of cut cable - about 1 inch of the center conductor should be visible on each length.

Insert the short cable into your axe, and the other one into your amp. Hook them together, and test for proper working condition.

Now drop a 0.01µf cap across the two exposed leads - what did it sound like? Remove that cap, and do the same with a 0.05µf cap - what'd that sound like?

Do this with various caps until you find one that sounds about right - this is how your axe will sound with the tone control all the way down at 1. If you want, you can insert a temporary tone pot between one of the capacitor leads, and the joint where it was going. Essentially, you're wiring it up just as if it were inside your axe, but for the moment, you're able to play with the values without a lot of hassle, right? ;D

It shouldn't take much imagination to realize that you can do this for your volume control too, if you also eliminate it from your guitar's internal circuitry. You're simply moving it outside, where you can get at it for testing purposes.

Once you've settled on values that make you smile, you know what to install permanently.

I've read that the lower the capacitance, the higher the "cutoff frequency" at witch the cap starts to roll off.

This is correct.

[W]ould 0.5 be to muddy?

I personally think so, but then again, I don't have your ears, so don't listen to me!

I'm just trying to limit the open/closing of the pickguard as its already a pain to do....

Understood. By now, you're probably already digging into your cable stash, looking for a cheapie to sacrifice to the Test Gawds. ;D Good luck!

HTH



sumgai

_{edited to correct fat-fingerness}

[shortbusx]

sumgai said:

But feel free to ask questions (about capacitors) here in this thread, someone will answer them as ASAP as possible.

Isnt the above link(to capacitors) mostly for Amplfiers and not necisarrily for guitar use...I just notice the voltage is kinda high.

What I dont normally see are links to guitar specific caps...you know, commonly used values and materials.

I found a link yesterday that had a good selection(figured Id share):
www.singlecoil.com/shop.html

Heres another good site that explains the different types of cap materials used....you need to click on the "misc" link at the top of the page
www.diyguitarist.com/

My question is Ive got an HSS and wanna try other caps then the .033uf caps...but dont know where I should go from here....any suggestions.

[momo]

Im presently doing the tests with the caps mentioned above,ill do a new post with my final findings but here is a fast answer. First of all, the caps are tested in my strat with pickups going strait to volume pot, no tone pot connected. All the caps tested were not exactly on the mark, say the 0.02 tested at 0.035, the 0.05 tested at 0.07 ect... so the tolerance is a bit large. The sound of the caps did not vary much between caps of the same brand even with the difference because of the toloerance, but I must say that between brands is very diiferent. For now Ill tell you that the .01 "Industrial corp", had a quack sound to it, with acentuated mids, and almost no low end. I ended up using the "Grey Tiger" 0.05(tested at 0.07) 1000 Volts, this is the biggest of them all, im not sure if it has to do with the sound but this one is great, tight punchy lows and smooth glass like overtones.

So in short, Sumgai's suggested test cable with the exposed leads did the job, I could easily swap caps and compare, so Id say try different brands with ratings from 0.1 to 0.6,7,8?

One thing to note is about the tone pots, I ended up using one pot only for complete tone control. Now my pot clocks in at 265 K Ohms for a 250 K pot. Now this is very good, I ended up using this one because even thought I thought the 0.05 cap to be a tad too muffled in the high end, using the 265K pot with the this cap, gave me a bit more pluck in the high mids.(The higher the resistance,,,265K,,, the brighter the pot).I will post more details in a upcoming post...like how I used the Quacky 0.1 cap in my Vox wah....... awsome!

[sumgai]

shorty,

Isnt the above link(to capacitors) mostly for Amplfiers and not necisarrily for guitar use...I just notice the voltage is kinda high.

Electronics is, and even though the application may be different, the math is always the same. Thankfully. ;D

The fact is, voltage ratings are maximum allowed voltages that can be applied. You won't hurt (or help) anything if you use a 200 volt unit in a guitar. In fact, that's exactly what Leo used in the first few generations of his product.

However, if you stick a 15 volt cap in a tube amplifier's output circuit, be prepared to hear some loud knocking on your door shortly thereafter - that'll be the Environmental Police, and they won't be selling you any cookies or even tickets to a ball.

As momo points out, the way a cap is constructed can affect the tone as much as the value itself. Different manufacturers do it different ways, so if you've got the time/money/inclination, fire up the test rig noted above, and have at it! Remember, everything you see/hear/read/soak up by telepathy, it's all just a starting point. Most SC-equipped guitars these days come with 0.022µf or 0.02µf caps. Some might show a 0.033µf or a 0.03µf, like yours, and that's OK too. As stated previously, the lower the value, the less the highs get cut as you turn down the tone pot.

Point Of History: Leo used a 0.05µf unit in his first iterations, later changing downwards to 0.02µf or in some cases, 0.022µf. (Between those last two, it was nothing more than which supplier would give him the best price, whenever he went on a shopping spree.) But he stuck with molded wax caps for the high end guitars until he sold the company to CBS. Some of his later 'student model' guitars got ceramic discs, they were cheaper. CBS put those discs on everything, cheap or otherwise.

HTH


sumgai

p.s. Thanks for sharing those links, good find. +1 for you.

[sumgai]

momo,

......
All the caps tested were not exactly on the mark, say the 0.02 tested at 0.035, the 0.05 tested at 0.07 ect...

You've got a capacitor tester? What model?


sumgai

[momo]

My local Hobbit/electronics guru friend....has a tester... I don't recal the name but it does only that function and is like a portable handheld multimeter.

Just finished playing 2 hours with the new setup!
I love the control on the tone pot, I can dial in a subtle treble loss, or a wide "Q" mid acentuation, or that Neil Young muted overloaded stuff! with the great low end overtones.
I also did the treble bleed mod, and that is awsome, especially with the 0.0012 Old "Domino" Mica Cap that was included in the treasure ,
Ill try to post pics this weekend, youll see it was a tight fit, with the ac protector cap, the 1/4 cigar size Grey Tiger 0.05 Cap(1000 volt), and the domino!

I had a wierd response though with the Diaz Texas Square Face which is a copy of the fuzzface..... the tone pot almost did not respond, at full drive it was very trebly even with the tone pot turned all the way down,,not a normal response.
I know the fuzzface design makes it difficult with the wah wah in series, maybe this has something to do with that . The tone is still killer, much like Hendrix's "Wild Thing "at Monteray PoP festival. ;D
gotta catch the zzzzzzz

[pmccook1]

www.vacuumtube.com/VTV%20Ultratonecaps.htm

Vacuum Tube Valley web site.....


These are pricey,

What is the sound difference between one of these

.o2 / 200v caps at 40 dollars

Compared to

.02/ ceramic cap at 3 bucks


Is there a 37 dollar sound diffenrence.
It says you get a 3D tone and more real music ?

Phillip

[sumgai]

Phil,

www.vacuumtube.com/VTV%20Ultratonecaps.htm

Vacuum Tube Valley web site.....

These are pricey,

What is the sound difference between one of these

.o2 / 200v caps at 40 dollars

Compared to

.02/ ceramic cap at 3 bucks

Is there a 37 dollar sound diffenrence.

It says you get a 3D tone and more real music ?


Phillip

Improve your tone, for a measly 37 bucks, per part?!

I don't think so.

I think we can all agree that no two capacitors will sound exactly alike, but the corollary to that is, the sound differences between capacitors is not often noticible.

If there was ever a place for my standard Bullsh1t Detector test, this would be it. Simply ask the seller if he'd submit to a double-blind test, his products against whatever you bring to the table. If he takes you up on it, you'll pants him in a heartbeat, and be able to crow from the rooftops. If he 'prefers to decline the offer', then you know that he knows that he's selling Sailboat Fuel, and you can shout about that from the rooftops. ;D

Nope, not this Broomstick Cowboy!

.........


So what would I recommend instead? I'd recommend that you sit down, pop a top, and think about it for few minutes. (And not while channel surfing, either.)

Either you are a Tone Nazi, and you have to spend the maximum amount of money, just to 'prove' that you've got the best tone, or you are a realist, and you realize that as soon as you hit the amp's power switch, all bets are off, tone-wise. There are simply too many variables in the equation to label any one thing as the source of the best tone.

Question: Can you define "the best tone"?

Next question: Is your definition acceptable to others besides yourself?

Question No. 3: If no one else buys your definition, then are they all full of horse patootie?


And so it goes....... A pragmatic person realizes that there is no 'best', only a goal to sound better than what you currently sound like. No one part contributes any more heavily to one's tone than one's own self - all the parts in the world won't help you sound any better. Conversely, if you sound "right'", or "real good" or whatever, then it won't matter what parts are between you and your listener, you'll still sound bodacious.

This concludes todays Lessons in Life, brought to you by the letters "S", "U", "C", "K", "E" and "R". Remember, you won't be one if you stop to think about what someone is telling you. ;D

Da nada.



sumgai

[momo]

Just checked the site... well all I can say is about the size and technique(foil and paper), from what ive experienced, the bigger the Foil/oil/paper type cap, the better bass response, so im pretty shure they would beat any smaller cap of any other construction out there, as far as the actual tone, I have no idea if the 50 year old oil wrapped in foil and paper that my caps have make a difference. Id have to compare side by side, but definetly im shure they are better in bass.....then again, I just realized that all the tests I did were with vintage caps, so maybe there is a big difference, I dont know. Maybe someone with a Hoveland cap could contribute, and then we would have a good basis for comparing vintage caps to the "neo" Hovelands. Maybe its in the old oil, or maybe its just the size, maybe its the tolerance percentage.... hmmmm,
good thing there is that test box going around, that will help to find out!

[pmccook1]

Thank you MOMO, I would like to hear the test between a ceramic cap and a oil cap like the one on the site there.

And yes Sumgai, Blue is prettier than Red when I'm pooping lites, On those dark lager days green seems to stand out a little more.

Do I need to send you a ceramic cap MOMO ? Or a dark lager..,,,

[momo]

Well its hard to refuse fresh Stout , its fresh isnt it?... and you dont have too many choices left..... ha forget the ceramic!! you dont have to send that... seriously even in basic electronics, a ceramic cap is considered the lowest of the low, simple economics, you dont have to put oil based caps or even mica based caps in a tv, japanese radio ect... someone correct me if im wrong but the ceramic discs were simple and cheap to make, period.(All this info comes from my electronics guru friend and I just learned this recently).
So the analogy of comparing old "class a" design in say audio mixers of 30 years ago, and digital technology of today, can also be done to the capacitors, and other components which are used to build these machines. I happen to think that just like a microphone, each capacitor has its personality within some given specification, so like Sumgai said, the testing is in order to find out which one you like. If you read my previous post in this thread, I had a couple of caps with different personalities, so I chose the one which was the best for what I liked. That does not mean that the others were not good, they all were much better than the stock cap. As far as new ones, of coarse you will always have some guy somewhere trying to make a buck without really knowing what he is dealing with. That said, if his caps are oil based like he sais, then for sure its got to be better than any ceramic, is it worth that much, well,its kinda expensive if you dont like the personality of the cap in the end!.
Cheers

[pmccook1]

If I spent 40 bucks to just try it out, I'd have to go ahead and install it, and learn to love it.....

I didn't know what kind of response I was gonna get from the question, I thought it might have been one of those , Heck yea, get it you'll love it.

But I would like to ask Sumgai,,,,
If you had a ceramic laying there and one of the oil types , Without trying out either one first , Which one would you pick up not knowing the tone of either ?

and the lager has been riding in the back of my truck for the last week , left over from a weekend jam session.

Later
PM

[shortbusx]

However, if you stick a 15 volt cap in a tube amplifier's output circuit, be prepared to hear some loud knocking on your door shortly thereafter - that'll be the Environmental Police, and they won't be selling you any cookies or even tickets to a ball.

Yeah...I dont get it. Wouldnt the cap just pop?

the way a cap is constructed can affect the tone as much as the value itself. Different manufacturers do it different ways, so if you've got the time/money/inclination, fire up the test rig noted above, and have at it!

So do you recon thered be much a difference between Polyester, Polystyrene or Polypropylene? Or would there be greater tonal differences in trying mica or ceramic next?

[sumgai]

shorty,

However, if you stick a 15 volt cap in a tube amplifier's output circuit, be prepared to hear some loud knocking on your door shortly thereafter - that'll be the Environmental Police, and they won't be selling you any cookies or even tickets to a ball.

Yeah...I dont get it. Wouldnt the cap just pop?

Yep, sure will! Depending on how severely you violate the laws of electrical nature, the size of the smoke cloud may attract unwanted official attention (those pesky Environmental Police).

Rule of thumb:

Small violations - small cloud, may not escape your work area.
Large violation - large cloud...... and obnoxiously smelly, too. That'll bring the EP running for sure!

the way a cap is constructed can affect the tone as much as the value itself. Different manufacturers do it different ways, so if you've got the time/money/inclination, fire up the test rig noted above, and have at it!

So do you recon thered be much a difference between Polyester, Polystyrene or Polypropylene? Or would there be greater tonal differences in trying mica or ceramic next?

Understand, even in the best of my life's times, there was never a time when I could tell the alleged differences between one kind of capacitor and another. Not in hi-fi gear, not in guitar amps, not in anything that made (or re-made) sound. I suppose you could say that I have a tin ear, but I do prefer to think of it as "there are more important things to work on when striving for the 'ultimate' tone". Statedly simply, let me quote Rhett Butler: "Frankly, my friend, I don't give a damn!"

My choice? Cheapest. It never hurts to start at the bottom, and work your way upwards when seeking satisfaction. That way, you'll know with good reason that you can't possibly get it any cheaper, and still be as satisfied. Seems simple enough to me, anyways.

HTH


sumgai

[momo]

So I finally got hold of a camera so for you visual guys, here are closeup pics of the caps mentioned before....

What is left after my tests...



The big one is the .02 Grey Tiger with a funky mid frequency section...


The Industrial Condensor Corp, Clearer sounding caps compared to the Grey Tigers


And this double one clocking at 0.01 Mfd x 2, this I have not tested yet...


Cheers

[ChrisK]

Well, capacitors have characteristics related to the dielectric material, the foil/plate material, the effective series inductance, and the insulation quality.

The dielectric will have characteristics such as insulation resistance which goes to leakage current and dielectric absorption ( the "recharging" that occurs after it is "completely discharged", which is why high voltage caps have shorting wires across their terminals when they're shipped). For audio quality, and certainly for signal instrumentation circuits, the quality of the dielectric is very important.

I suspect that foil/plate quality is the easiest to control.

The internal self-inductance (before someone says "whoa Sparky, this ain't no inductor", let me state that ALL electrical components including a piece of straight wire have resistance, capacitance [to something], and inductance characteristics, period) is probably of little significance due to the low frequencies afoot.

The insulation resistance is important. While the more modern insulation used is pretty good, some of the older types are questionable long-term. While wax covered caps may seem to be the best sounding ones, the wax doesn't prevent moisture from getting in, it just slows it down. Printed circuit modules that are used for ultra-high instrumentation quality or harsh environments are often con-formally coated with clear materials to achieve such protection. This only delays the infusion of moisture (sometimes by many years).

Moisture that eventually gets into a cap will affect the dielectric to some degree, and possibly begin foil/plate corrosion as well.


If all of these real characteristics are the same for two types of capacitors, they WILL operate, and hence, sound the same. The use of nebulous terms that attempt to differentiate caps based on their "warmth", etc. are undefinable and relative only to each listener individually.

I would make the statement that ceramic caps are inferior for (high-end) audio use due to their less than great dielectric characteristics which allows leakage that manifests itself as a series resistance that does affect the high frequency response of high impedance passive pickups. Unfortunately, I can't always (or even usually) tell the difference by ear.


While we like to think that we've found our personal Nirvana, I'm reminded about the saying about musicians.

If you don't practice everyday, you'll notice.
If you don't practice every week, other musicians will notice.
At some further point, the general audience at large might notice (but don't count on it).

The intricacies of tone are more than lost on most.


Anything other than the actual specificity of component characteristics is lore. Most actual vintage components such as pickups and caps don't have "that sound of years ago", they have the actual sound of old components (with all of their warts) today.

[momo]

ChrisK,... we are all 3 inches from the trees, while you, are floating over the forest...

[monradon]

So in a older guitar with the markings 50P would probably be really .05uf right ?? Got a new meter that also checks caps a Extech 26 its amazing how many caps I found already way out of tolerance

[sumgai]

monradon,

So in a older guitar with the markings 50P would probably be really .05uf right ?? Got a new meter that also checks caps a Extech 26 its amazing how many caps I found already way out of tolerance

No, not necessarily so.

If it's a capital P, as you wrote it, then the chances are greater that it refers to a tolerance code, or even a temperature co-efficient code. For temperature ratings, a "P" would usually mean 'as the temp goes up, so too does the capacitance value". Conversely, "NPO" means the reverse - a rise in temp means a drop in capacitance value.

If it's a lowercase "p", then yes, it's likely a reference to picofarads. However, your math is off by 3 orders of magnitude! 1,000 picofarads equals 1 nanofarad, and 1,000 nanofarads equals 1 microfarad (aka 1µf). (See Footnote 1) This means that your supposition is more like 0.00005µf. (That's 4 zeros after the radix.)

But older caps weren't usually labeled in nanofarads (nf), they were nearly always shown as a zero with some fraction after the radix, indicating that they were in microfarads, or else they were shown in whole values, indicating they were in micromicrofarads. That would be expressed, in correct Greekishness, as µµf. Think of it as "millionth of a millionth" or 10^-12. In those days, 10^-9 wasn't very common. Nowadays, we have to watch it more closely.

HTH


sumgai

1.) Wondering how I got that lower-case Greek letter? Easy. Most forums support "BBCode", and we're no exception. Simply type in the following characters, just as you see them: µ By way of example I'd type out your example value as 0.05µf, which the forum software will render as 0.05µf. Easy, yes?