rickm
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Post by rickm on May 12, 2006 10:36:33 GMT -5
It's probably been covered, but I can't find a solution. I like the tone my Hot Rod Deluxe has on the clean channel at "10" on the volume knob. Trouble is, I can't be in the same room as the amp because of the volume. I've tried an in-line volume/eq box (Boss) but it reduced the volume and killed the tone and the "just broken-up" quality of the pick-ups. In other words, it just don't sound the same. Is there away to keep that full-driven tone and "break-up" at much lower volumes. Is there a way to do it??
I'd rather not replace the tubes (hate to spend the $$), plus I may want more volume if we get larger room gigs.
Thanks.
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Post by UnklMickey on May 12, 2006 11:50:43 GMT -5
hi Rickm,
Welcome to Guitarnuts 2.
yeah, there's something kinda magical about the sound of a tube amp with the output tubes and output transformer saturating, and the power supply sagging.
you could spend $$$ de-clawing your amp so it distorts at lower volumes.
but it will still sound different after you do. maybe better, maybe worse.
but definitely, it will change.
here's another approach for you to consider.
get a nice LITTLE tube amp, like the Epiphone valve junior. ($99 for just the head, $140 for a combo)
crank that puppy up for the tone you want, at a volume that won't make your drummer throw his sticks at you.
not loud enough?
good! that's a way easier problem to fix than being too loud.
put it on a stand so that it's at ear-level, and close enough to you, so you can hear well.
that takes care of you, now for the audience. put a mic in front of it, and run that through the PA.
mic'ed amps sound huge. not loud, just big and full.
so now your drummer complains he can't hear you quite enough.
good! he'll play a little quieter.
and the bass player will turn down a bit too.
the stage volume of the whole band will be more manageable.
none of you go home with tinnitus.
get a A-B-Y switch and use the HRD for the cleans, the VJ for the means, and both together if you like.
way simpler and more versatile than modding your HRD.
unk
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rickm
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Post by rickm on May 12, 2006 12:23:08 GMT -5
Great post - thanks.
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Post by Ripper on May 12, 2006 15:47:01 GMT -5
Hey rickm....Welcome mon ami to GN2
I have a one word solution to your problem...
Variac.
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Post by UnklMickey on May 12, 2006 16:56:50 GMT -5
hey Blue,
that's a pretty good word!
but a dangerous word to toss out there all by itself.
you'll be a better friend to him, if you put a few more out there with it.
like a few more words to tell him which way to turn the knob. and how much.
and a caution about faster valve "wear" would be cool too.
his HRD will sound way different with a Variac.
but he might like it even better.
and it IS plug-and-play.
almost +1 for that one, Blue.
it takes 2 like that one, to score.
finish what you started.
unk
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Post by Ripper on May 12, 2006 17:42:43 GMT -5
Hey Unk...
I type with two fingers. Maybe rickm already knows what a Variac is?
If not hell come back and ask...Then my fingers ( as well as a few others ) will get busy typing.
Always leave them wanting more!
When someone asks me the time, I dont tell them how they made the watch.
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Post by UnklMickey on May 12, 2006 17:46:56 GMT -5
When someone asks me the time, I dont tell them how they made the watch. interesting concept. i'll have to try that out, someday! LSH...... unk |
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Post by Ripper on May 12, 2006 19:18:34 GMT -5
lol! Unk sometimes you make my day!  ummmm, I dont want to go and pick out curtains or anything. |
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Post by UnklMickey on May 12, 2006 19:43:09 GMT -5
right back at ya pal!
cheers,
unk
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lethargytartare
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I promise, I'm not new here...
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Post by lethargytartare on May 16, 2006 10:32:42 GMT -5
Have you seen threads discussing attenuators, like the THD HotPlate -- I think that's the big name in those things. Let's you run your tubes at full steam, but control output...might be better suited to the task than the boss thing you tried?
Best of luck!
ltt
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servant
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Post by servant on Jun 27, 2006 23:29:15 GMT -5
There is a fairly effective inexpensive option that I just learned about. I'm not sure how many watts an HRD is, so proceed cautiously. Get a Radio Shack In-Wall Volume control. They have a mono and stereo version. Mount the unit in a PVC electrical outlet box (kinda hillbilly-ugly, but inexpensive and effective) or something like a Hammond stomp-box project box. It is a 9- or 10- step attenuator of the transformer (not resistor) variety. Designed for an 8-ohm load, you plug your amp head into the attenuator IN, and the speaker/speaker cab into the OUT. I think they are rated for 45 or 50 watts RMS. With the attenuator all the way up at 9/10, it does no attenuating and the amp is at its original volume. Turn (click) the knob down to 5, and the amp is still cranking, but only half the volume (? maybe not technically correct, but MUCH lower...) is reaching the speaker. At the more extreme attenuation, down at 1, 2 or 3, the highs get reduced and you might not like the tone as well. This can be compensated for somewhat by adding a capacitor across the transformer/coil to pass the highs regardless of volume reduction. Here is a link to a thread over at the Marshall 18watt forum, but you have to register to view posts: www.18watt.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=7588 |
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Post by dunkelfalke on Jun 28, 2006 1:35:51 GMT -5
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Post by UnklMickey on Jun 28, 2006 9:12:37 GMT -5
Falke,
be careful with that D.I. box!
that won't provide a load for the amp.
no problem for most modern SS amps.
but for a tube amp, BAD things can happen when driven hard with no load.
for a tube amp, you will want to use a hot-plate with that box.
using a 12AU7 (low gain) or 12AT7 (medium gain) to replace a 12AX7 is a nice "quick and dirty" way to tame down a preamp that has so much gain that it's hard to control.
but in this case, Rickm is trying to get poweramp distortion. (clean channel on 10)
if he were to put a 12AU7 in his clean channel, he might not have enough gain to drive his poweramp hard enough to distort.
those kinds of tricks ARE useful in certain situations.
the best part is, they are quickly implemented and/or removed.
unk
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Post by dunkelfalke on Jun 28, 2006 11:34:17 GMT -5
the manual of that dibox says that you still need either the cabinet or a load resistor, a hot plate is not needed though as the dibox already provides something like that.
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Post by sumgai on Jun 30, 2006 3:41:22 GMT -5
Guys, A DI box will not present any load at all to the circuit where it's connected, pure and simple. In fact, its whole reason for existance is to appear as invisible as possible to the amplifier it's tapping into, and to match impedances between the source and the target systems - it doesn't do anything else. Even if it's connected directly to a speaker tap off the output transformer, or directly to the output transistors, it still has to appear as if it weren't there - the amp must not be loaded in any way, shape or form by the connected DI box. (Caveat: if the DI function is built into a power absorption device, then of course the two functions will co-exist quite nicely. But be aware that they are independent of each other - neither relies on the other for its existance.) Thus, both unk and dunk are correct, a legitimate load must be presented to the amp's output stage. (And no, I don't care what the theory says, both SS and tubes need a load whenever there's a strong signal present. What, you sold your speaker(s) while your amp was torn apart? You've got a load nearby, use it! If you don't, then don't come crying around here when Mr. Murphy pays you a visit!  ) dunk, your comment about the manual is telling. What Behringer is referring to is not some ability to control the output power of your amp, they're talking about how you can control the strength of the signal that goes out of the DI box to some other device. Big difference, my friend.  HTH sumgai |
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Post by UnklMickey on Jun 30, 2006 18:00:33 GMT -5
...You've got a load nearby, use it! If you don't, then don't come crying around here when Mr. Murphy pays you a visit! )
... someone has to, so i guess i will. if Murphy does visit, your amp could become "a load". and i don't mean that in a good way. |
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Post by sumgai on Jul 2, 2006 21:31:38 GMT -5
...You've got a load nearby, use it! If you don't, then don't come crying around here when Mr. Murphy pays you a visit! )
...
someone has to, so i guess i will.
if Murphy does visit, your amp could become "a load".
and i don't mean that in a good way.Well, Vic Tanney or Charles Atlas might like the idea. [insert loud groan here] ;D sumgai p.s. Look at that timestamp! Was I really on that late last night? No wonder my health is failing me! |
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xStonr
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Post by xStonr on Jul 20, 2006 21:15:39 GMT -5
I bought a THD hot plate to use with a Carvin V16 that I have. It was only okay with my set up. To work properly, the hot plate needs an amp of 40 or more watts. What happened was that it lowered the volume, but also sucked out the tone. I had to return it. As posted earlier, a Epi Valve Jr. is a good alternative for not a lot of money.
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Post by knuckledragger on Jul 22, 2006 10:44:54 GMT -5
Thd Makes These Called Yellow Jackets.They are tube sockets with the right pins that let you install l84's they come with JJ 's for around $99 .lets you saturate at around half power of your amp.tubes run cooler no damage and you won't even have to rebias [most times]Great for Deville .I am running these in a vitage 60watt amp with 6L6 .sort of turns it into a class A 30watt amp for smaller gigs .when I want full power I just reinsert 6L6's.Check out Harmony Central for reviews or just go to THD.com
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dsrb
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Post by dsrb on Jul 24, 2007 12:01:09 GMT -5
I've heard EVH used a Variac at 90% of power on Marshall heads for the first albuns. That was a great sound ;D
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Post by vegetablejoe on Jul 26, 2007 1:16:10 GMT -5
Thd Makes These Called Yellow Jackets.They are tube sockets with the right pins that let you install l84's they come with JJ 's for around $99 .lets you saturate at around half power of your amp.tubes run cooler no damage and you won't even have to rebias [most times]Great for Deville .I am running these in a vitage 60watt amp with 6L6 .sort of turns it into a class A 30watt amp for smaller gigs .when I want full power I just reinsert 6L6's.Check out Harmony Central for reviews or just go to THD.com knuckledragger, i got the same thing for my Blues Deluxe, but I haven't been able to spend enough time with it afterward to discern how the tone changed from 6L6's to EL84's. Could you elaborate on any nuances/differences you hear on tone? I would hate to find out that the BD is now an overgrown Pro Jr.! (since I have both amps). Btw, these YJ's are probably the Pentode model, which supposedly bring down the power from between 50-70%. I would have loved to get the Triode model which can supposedly bring power down by 70-90%. |
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Post by vegetablejoe on Jul 26, 2007 4:12:09 GMT -5
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Post by sumgai on Jul 26, 2007 13:22:16 GMT -5
veggie, Just be aware that the reviewers in those two links don't have a clue about what they're discussing. Only the 4th review down in the second link admits that he's not a technician, he's a guitar player, and that's the first bit of honesty I saw. In the end, tone is where you find it. Regardless of how you get there, if it's what you want, then that's the bottom line, for you. And a good bottom line it is. Me personally? I gave up carrying 60 and 70 pound amplifiers that put out only 15 or 20 watts. Finally figured out that I was carrying the worlds heaviest low-power amp, and what did I get out of it? Nada. For the effort, I could have just as well bought or built a low-power amp to start with, and saved the difference on the chiropracter bills. But have you ever heard a tinkertoy amp try to fill a 300 person room, at any tone? Nope, doesn't work. Mucho clean power is the order of the day, and my VG-88 will suffice to get the tone I need, no matter what the situation, thank you just a little bit. ;D As they say in hot-rodder land "there's no substitute for cubic inches". sumgai |
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Post by ChrisK on Jul 26, 2007 15:08:59 GMT -5
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Post by vegetablejoe on Jul 26, 2007 19:08:16 GMT -5
veggie, Just be aware that the reviewers in those two links don't have a clue about what they're discussing. Only the 4th review down in the second link admits that he's not a technician, he's a guitar player, and that's the first bit of honesty I saw. In the end, tone is where you find it. Regardless of how you get there, if it's what you want, then that's the bottom line, for you. And a good bottom line it is. Me personally? I gave up carrying 60 and 70 pound amplifiers that put out only 15 or 20 watts. Finally figured out that I was carrying the worlds heaviest low-power amp, and what did I get out of it? Nada. For the effort, I could have just as well bought or built a low-power amp to start with, and saved the difference on the chiropracter bills. But have you ever heard a tinkertoy amp try to fill a 300 person room, at any tone? Nope, doesn't work. Mucho clean power is the order of the day, and my VG-88 will suffice to get the tone I need, no matter what the situation, thank you just a little bit. ;D As they say in hot-rodder land "there's no substitute for cubic inches". sumgai sumgai, Many thanks for the info! I'm just trying to make my Blues Deluxe apt. friendly... the YJ's are it's last chance. If vol/power doesn't come down AND still sound good, then I will have to let it go. But I will be sorry to have to do that, since I like it stock - but can't play it above 2 on the vol. at home.  I looked at the HC reviews primarily just for some clues on tone changes. I'm satisfied that the YJ's are a safe solution and am happy I won't need to rebias anything. I'm afraid that's the most technical concern I can muster, so I'm very appreciative that the folks here are most helpful with the tech. aspects. In any case, it's apt.-friendly replacement - the Pro Jr. - has arrived. so I've got lots of a/b'ing to do... now if only I could find the time!  |
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Post by benitosuave on Jul 28, 2007 16:58:12 GMT -5
you need to get an attenuator that goes between your "head" and your speakers. This will require a mod for combo amps unless you amp has both a speaker out jack and a speaker in jack. You run your tubes at full volume, but you cut the signal before it reaches the speakers so you get the full tube sound with a lower volume.
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blank
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Post by blank on Aug 29, 2007 11:25:43 GMT -5
There is an approach called Power Scaling also. www.londonpower.com/pscaling.htmI've known about it for years but have never heard it in action. I'll probably just stick with attenuators though. I have some THD Yellowjackets. I use them in a 30 watt Marshall Artist head, which brings it down to about 12 watts. Still very loud! I end up using the Yellow Jackets PLUS an attenuator (Marshall Power Brake) and even on the attenuators lowest setting, the amp is still too loud, unless I set the amp volume down to about "1". Granted, the Marshall Power Brake is notched, unlike the THD Hotplate or Weber M.A.S.S. which has a smooth volume control that can take you down to almost zero. Aside from all of that, Power Scaling is the only concept I've heard about that will preserve the loud sound while being quiet. I personally think that what you have loud can never sound the same quiet because of interaction with the speaker but that's just my pedestrian theory. |
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jefesq
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Post by jefesq on Sept 10, 2007 21:16:54 GMT -5
2nd on the valve Jr. Have the version 2 with the cabinet. there's a thrid version out. I just changed the tubes out, (tungsol 12Ax7 and groove tubes el-84s) awesome clean sound and by the way I can drive the neighbors to call very easily.
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westside
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Post by westside on Dec 10, 2008 15:35:20 GMT -5
There is an approach called Power Scaling also. www.londonpower.com/pscaling.htmI've known about it for years but have never heard it in action. I'll probably just stick with attenuators though. I have some THD Yellowjackets. I use them in a 30 watt Marshall Artist head, which brings it down to about 12 watts. Still very loud! I end up using the Yellow Jackets PLUS an attenuator (Marshall Power Brake) and even on the attenuators lowest setting, the amp is still too loud, unless I set the amp volume down to about "1". Granted, the Marshall Power Brake is notched, unlike the THD Hotplate or Weber M.A.S.S. which has a smooth volume control that can take you down to almost zero. Aside from all of that, Power Scaling is the only concept I've heard about that will preserve the loud sound while being quiet. I personally think that what you have loud can never sound the same quiet because of interaction with the speaker but that's just my pedestrian theory. Hello, I found this board by way of GuitarNuts.com. I started out on BillM's Blues Junior site (from which you can deduce that I have one of those) (it's at ) and followed the links to GuitarNuts for the Strat shielding info (ditto deduction). So now I'm going to shield my Strat and mod my Blues Junior. I think I can do that, if I can figure out which end of the soldering iron to hold. Once that's done, I want to run the amp at lower volume, but with some tone. So, this seems like the right thread. I'm trying to figure out whether I want an attenuator or something like a scaling unit. Has anybody installed one of the London Power scaling units? There is a new model that is apparently easier to install than the original one. www.londonpower.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=7&products_id=27From what I can gather, the power scaling circuit seems like the best approach. It basically operates the power section of the amp at a reduced voltage, so you can saturate the tubes at low power. Conversely, the attenuator dissipates power between the output and the speaker, sometimes with tone penalties, and you have to run the tubes hard, with resulting wear and tear. So, basically I'm leaning toward the scaling circuit. Does anyone have an opinion? I know some of you are kind of shy.  Thanks! |
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Post by chuck on Jun 14, 2010 15:41:44 GMT -5
even a 5 watt VJ is LOUD when you crank it .
so lowering the output of a 60 watt amp to 30 watts isnt much help.
keep in mind that 30 watts is NOT half as loud as 60 watts.
a 6 watt amp is half as loud as a 60 watt amp .
and 6 watts into an efficient speaker is still LOUD .
buy a quality power attenuator.
the THD Hotplate may be all the rage , but they are tone suckers.
try a Dr Z Airbrake .
that should allow you to crank your amp to get the tone you love ... at the volume levels your ears love.
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Thanks!
