Les Paul Jimmy Page wiring with 42 sounds

[dw3000]

Hey, Borsanova - if you return, or anyone who's done his original wiring setup..

I'd seen one one thread somewhere about the mod, maybe even this thread, that his diagram is designed as if looking at the front of the guitar. With that in mind, I was wondering if this is a mostly correct representation of how it should look while looking into the control cavity in the back of the guitar? Or if I'm off base on this? The pickup wire colors may be off, depending on the pickup model, I suppose, but also some clarification on what wires 1-8 represent - North/South Start/Finish would be appreciated...

Also, in this circuit, are these all .022 caps?

Aside from the pickups, some of the wiring colors are just to avoid confusion - wires only connect to one another if they're the exact same color. Also, the wiring on the switch is just representative if that looks off.

Here's what I have, let me know if it's accurate..! Any input is appreciated!

[asmith]

Here's my two cents of a mix-up of Borsanova's 'Twenty-Dual Mix' version:


Here's a PDF of the diagram, a table of the possible selections, and a list of the possible combinations.

I've left the switches un-assigned to a particular push/pull pot so that a wirer can choose whichever control he wants attached to whatever switch - that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[wolf]

And here is the way I approach the Jimmy Page wiring:
www.1728.com/guitar9.htm

[newey]

dw3000-

First of all . . .

Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!

Borsa hasn't been back around since that flurry of posts back in September, and that was his reappearance after several years' absence.

his diagram is designed as if looking at the front of the guitar.

Understand that this doesn't affect the switching at all. Both the P/Ps and the 3-way toggle are symmetric, so swapping right for left doesn't matter. It matters only on the wiring of the pots, where "handedness" enters into the picture.

IOW, had one wired from the back using a diagram drawn from the front, one would end up with all the pots wired left-handed. It would still work, however.

But your diagram is clearly drawn, I had trouble comparing it to Borsa's original sketch, which was hard to read. So if it's right, it's a keeper.

I didn't see any issues on reviewing your version, dw, but it's a complex scheme, so let's await further input. "Looks good to newey" = "famous last words"!

You referred, however, to:

his original wiring setup..

Your diagram seems to be the 3rd version, the one with JohnH's suggested mods to the pot wiring, and the added cap on the Bridge Vol.

There's now so many interpretations of the JP LP thing around here that we need to start numbering them or something. As it is, I find myself typing things like "JohnH's modification of Borsanova's version of the Jimmy Page Les Paul Scheme". . . . Ugh.

[dw3000]

Hey, thanks for the welcome!

Wow, yeah I should have realized that the front/back thing shouldn't matter, except for which pot lug is which.. I think I just kinda saw the "like you're looking at he front" thing and immediately thought 'well, I gotta flip it' hahah

As for mentioning original version, moreso was meaning his latest revision of the original version. There are even alot of variations out there of Borsa's design, let alone the JP design in general..

This one looks like the one I'd like to go with, mainly because I'm curious to try what he calls the 'broadbucker' setting, and the fact that there aren't any muted/silent positions.. and the majority of positions look to be hum-cancelling. Also, with this version, I don't have to modify my pickups or their polarity. With those in mind, it still looks to be pretty versatile, and it doesn't look like I'm missing out on too many other sounds that alot of the other versions offer, either. Or at least nothing drastically different, at least.

I think I have pretty much everything accounted for in that diagram, but yeah, definitely want to double-check it. And also, since it's not really labeled definitively I'm curious if the pickup conductors 1-8 are what I'm assuming, in terms of n/s start/finish, and that the neck and bridge wiring would be what I figured - say if north start is green on both pickups, that would be conductors 1 and 5 on his diagram, rather than green on bridge, and black on neck for example. If that makes sense.. lol Like, are both 1 and 5 'north start', for example. There we go, summed it up in one sentence.. lol

Thanks for the help so far everyone..!

[newey]

Like, are both 1 and 5 'north start', for example. There we go, summed it up in one sentence.. lol

Well, the short answer is "maybe".

Borsa's scheme numbers the pickup wires from 1-8. Nos 2 and 3 are the "series junction" for the neck; 6 and 7 are the series junction for the bridge (which is clear since, at the bridge, the 2 are connected together in std HB fashion.)

You will have to correlate your actual wire colors to those numbers. "Start" and "Finish" are arbitrary designations; all that matters is that both pickups are wired the same, otherwise they'll be out-of-phase. This should be easy if you're using a matched pair, or 2 identical, pickups.

As far as North vs. South, again, shouldn't be a problem if the pickups are the same, or at least from the same manufacturer. If they are different, testing will be necessary both to ensure correct polarity, as well as to ensure that the correct coils are combined for best humcanceling (when both HBs are split).

[borsanova]

Hello all together, and a special Welcome to dw3000.

I see everybody needs to draw his own schematic to understand my wiring. I really appreciate that, it is like a writer being translated in several different languages. The fact that you manage to translate it in your own symbols means that my schematic wasn't too obscure. But since everbody uses his own language, it is not necessary true that I can immediately understand each version. At least I'd need to study your languages for a while.

So first let me say that front or rear view should not be a big issue, especially on a Les Paul, where you need to work on both sides.

Now I've checked dw3000's, it took a while, but since it's quite clear I followed it through. I can see that you built the master version, and I could find no faults. So if I got it right everything seems to be okay. Congratulations!

In any case I couldn't tell the north/south issue. On my guitar with two different pickups I had to sort it out by trying. If your first try "1234" doesn't give you humcancelling with both pickups in single mode, swap one of your pickups to "2143"! That'll do.

As to asmith's drawing it seems to be a variation of my mix-version, but I couldn't tell the differences, since there are too many elements I don't get. It claims to give 24 sounds and I can't understand how he does or what they add.

Best wishes for the New Year and have a great time building your JP Twenty Dual!

[asmith]

As to asmith's drawing it seems to be a variation of my mix-version, but I couldn't tell the differences, since there are too many elements I don't get. It claims to give 24 sounds and I can't understand how he does or what they add.

It's pretty much your mix version. The only difference is that the 'coil cut' for the Bridge pickup - when the series/parallel Bridge pickup switch is pulled - sends the Bridge South signal to the Neck pickup output. You can still get the Bridge Single coil by selecting Lead with the selector switch. It adds three new tones because the Neck humbucker is now affected by the Bridge series/parallel switch being pulled.

Hope that clears things up. Just realised that Bridge North and Neck North out of phase is hum-cancelling as well, instead of what it says on the PDF. D'oh.

[borsanova]

Now I understand. I think you changed only one connection. But the result looks a bit confusing, since you sometimes have to selecte the treble or rhythm position in order to have both pickups on, while in the middle position you have three coils. I guess it's just the time to get used to it.

But as far as I can see, you lose some useful combinations, especially the two single coils humcanceling in parallel (in and out of phase). Yes, you still got it, when you switch to the rhythm position, but it is using different coils, so it's not hum-canceling. I refer in particular to the fourth line from below: Bridge South in parallel with Neck North out of phase. You didn't sign it, but this should give lots of hum. All in all it seems you get twelve humming positions, two of them quite strong.

So how are your additional sounds? Do they add a particular color?

[asmith]

But as far as I can see, you lose some useful combinations...

Aye. I've drawn up a list of theoretical combinations, with comparisons to your original 'mix' scheme. Here's that comparison.

I also noticed in this post on the thread that if you swapped the wiring for the screw and slug coils, more combinations would be hum-cancelling. I drew up that comparison as well, here it is.

It seems that whilst I might get three more sounds, I do lose both the intuitive controls and the sensible nature of the combinations available.

D'oh.

So how are your additional sounds? Do they add a particular color?

I'll let you know when I try wiring them!

[borsanova]

I actually built my guitar to the specifications of your second combos scheme, and so it has already 15 hum-cancelling combinations and 7 humming ones. I don't know why you think that it didn't, but maybe it's due to a misinterpretation in my scheme. In fact, I didn't specify any colors and when I first built it, I had to correct the connections of one pickup from 1234 to 2143 in order to get it hum-cancelling with two single coils.

But I noticed another thing: since in your new scheme you have only two combinations with two single coils, both of them with heavy hum, you might also swap one of your pickups and that would give you two more hum-cancelling combos.

[4real]

Since this thread is a little active at the moment thought I'd just add a thank you to Borsanova and JohnH who did the diagram on page 2 that I followed to complete mine (see the gallery on kahler trem LP)...



Worked/works brilliantly and logically....and a great clean look on this guitar.

I did the cardboard template thing which I think is kind of essential and ran flying leads to the pickups to be sure it all worked before installing...you can see these in the pic above...then neatened it up and taped it appropriately before installing it.

I've found on this guitar with identical fairly high powered no name HB's that there is hardly any noise even in splits and non-HB combos and without cavity shielding (all pup and selector wiring is shielded though)...

Particularly nice is that it works exactly as expected (LP) with nothing pulled...having the splits on the tones "makes sense" and I tend to use these...the bridge local parallel (which is unique in this JP scheme) is a real winner and I use it a lot along with the splits.

I played an LP for years and that was modified with three way mini switches to split to either coil and used it a lot when I played in bands so coming back to the LP after going fender types for quite some time, I wanted a bit more versatility and something a 'bit different'...this scheme provides a range of flavours that the fenders don't as well as that LP Vibe, body and sustain...

It's not my #1 guitar at the moment, but I may do another Lp one day...the tele has been supplanted by my HSS strat with 30+ selections with a modified MR scheme...but I learned a lot doing this one and it is still really cool to pick up this guitar and mess with the controls to get some unusual sound and see what that might inspire to play...it is a solid performer and the B-scheme wiring in it a definite winner.

It's good to see that people are still messing with the ideas...but it would take a lot to convince me to change anything much about the scheme!

PS...is the "42" sounds in the title a typo ( I thought it was 22...hence twenty dual?) ... or referring to the meaning of life?

[asmith]

I used Borsanova's Twenty-Dual Mix scheme, redrawn to this homemade diagram, on my friend Paul's Les Paul.



We used a Seymour Duncan SH-1 '59 Model humbucker in the neck, and a Seymour Duncan SH-14 Custom 5 in the bridge, on the recommendation of S.D.'s 'Tone Wizard,' a 'humbucker suggestion system.' Paul preferred the S.D. pickups as they had a more 'broad' range of sounds to them, as opposed to DiMarzio's more compressed, 'squashed' tone. Other pickup manufacturers are available. But we wanted to splash out on a big name just once, before I eventually get all serious about pickup pros and cons and prices and - Zzzzz...

Instead of placing the 'Neck phase' switch on the 'neck volume' push/pull pot, I opted to use the 'neck tone' switch instead. Simply a matter of personal preference. The logic of the circuitry didn't change. The 'coil cuts' cut the inner coils, so that the 'single coil' sounds were at the extremities of the pickup array, giving more pronounced tones. That's right. 'Pronounced tones.' Hand me a marketer's paycheck.

Here's some sound samples, to show off what the little screamer can do.

And here's the profanely amusing 'User's Guide' that I put together to explain the switch logic to my friend.

Great scheme, great big messes, great tones.

[timothyrb]

Quick question. Anyone know if the order of the master serial would make a difference in final tone. I would think that broadbucker treble bypass would sound different depending on whether you start with the neck or bridge in serial. What about with different volume mixes on JohnH's version?

[JohnH]

May 2, 2011 9:22:33 GMT -5 timothyrb said:

Quick question. Anyone know if the order of the master serial would make a difference in final tone. I would think that broadbucker treble bypass would sound different depending on whether you start with the neck or bridge in serial. What about with different volume mixes on JohnH's version?

Welcome to GN2

Theory will confirm that the order in series makes no difference ie. ground-bridge-neck-Hot = Ground-neck-bridge-hot. THis seems to be true in practice too/

John

[timothyrb]

Makes sense 2+3=5, 3+2=5.
So here's the bigger question:
I have an R8 with 4 push pulls in a JP setup.
I recently received 2 SD Tripleshots which provide pickup ring switching for both coil taps, series/parallel. I am going to rewire for the dual mix option, but what to do with the newly available extra 2 push/pulls? I'm thinking:

1. Phase/out of phase for each pickup - which could also let me match any set of single coils for him
2. I could use switches for capacitor overrides, or some other tone circuit or even active boost.
3. I could use switches to create a master volume override, or maybe figure out a way to create a master override to bypass all options to return to stock, since the Tripleshots are a bit cumbersome.
4. I have Fralin Unbuckers in there which sound great with all the combos, but of course never get true balanced humbucking, so maybe I do a true coil tap to balance them out - I'm a little nervous about doing this one myself.

I think #1 makes most sense. What do you guys think?

[newey]

timothyrb-

Hello and Welcome!

We're moving beyond a discussion of Borsanova's scheme here, so it is better if you repost this enquiry as a new thread in the general Guitar Wiring section.

Not sure exactly what your option #1 means. Do you mean using the p/p pots to put the individual coils of each of 2 HBs out of phasse with each other? IOW, "intra-pickup OOP"?

Or do you mean putting the neck HB OOP with the Bridge HB (i.e., inter-pickup OOP).

Putting the 2 coils of a HB OOP with each other is unlikely to result in a useable sound, as too much cancellation will occur. But some folks may like it, to each his or her own.

OOP between the 2 pickups is much more useful IMO. This requires only one switch, you can choose to put either the bridge OOP with respect to the neck, or to put the neck OOP with the bridge, the result is the same either way.

[borsanova]

Jan 17, 2011 14:50:11 GMT -5 4real said:

Since this thread is a little active at the moment thought I'd just add a thank you to Borsanova and JohnH who did the diagram on page 2 that I followed to complete mine (see the gallery on kahler trem LP)...

Worked/works brilliantly and logically....and a great clean look on this guitar.

I did the cardboard template thing which I think is kind of essential and ran flying leads to the pickups to be sure it all worked before installing...you can see these in the pic above...then neatened it up and taped it appropriately before installing it.

I've found on this guitar with identical fairly high powered no name HB's that there is hardly any noise even in splits and non-HB combos and without cavity shielding (all pup and selector wiring is shielded though)...

Particularly nice is that it works exactly as expected (LP) with nothing pulled...having the splits on the tones "makes sense" and I tend to use these...the bridge local parallel (which is unique in this JP scheme) is a real winner and I use it a lot along with the splits.

I played an LP for years and that was modified with three way mini switches to split to either coil and used it a lot when I played in bands so coming back to the LP after going fender types for quite some time, I wanted a bit more versatility and something a 'bit different'...this scheme provides a range of flavours that the fenders don't as well as that LP Vibe, body and sustain...

It's not my #1 guitar at the moment, but I may do another Lp one day...the tele has been supplanted by my HSS strat with 30+ selections with a modified MR scheme...but I learned a lot doing this one and it is still really cool to pick up this guitar and mess with the controls to get some unusual sound and see what that might inspire to play...it is a solid performer and the B-scheme wiring in it a definite winner.

It's good to see that people are still messing with the ideas...but it would take a lot to convince me to change anything much about the scheme!

PS...is the "42" sounds in the title a typo ( I thought it was 22...hence twenty dual?) ... or referring to the meaning of life?

I just came along to say hello after a long time and noticed that I never answered this post. So I thank 4real for appreciating my schematic and posting his guitar.

Regarding his question, the "42" sounds are not a typo. It's true, there are "only" 22 pick-up combinations here, but using the tone controls for broadbucker effects achieves a lot of additional sounds. I don't remember how I counted them, but 42 was the approximate result, without considering that it corresponded to the meaning of life. What was the question?

[col]

Hi borsanova,

Unfortunately, Peter (4real) passed away in 2014. A newer member posted a link to his obituary last March. We had no idea; though Pete's absence had been noted.

tributes.theage.com.au/obituaries/theage-au/obituary.aspx?n=peter-william-warmington&pid=172843358

[borsanova]

Hi col,

I'm truly sorry to hear that, especially as I notice that we had many things in common: the same name, almost the same age (8 months difference), the same hobbies...

Hopefully he is jamming in guitar heaven with Buddy, Eddie, Jimi, Rory, Stevie Ray, George, B.B., J.J., Les, Chet, Weird and Gilly and all the others.

[heavensthunder]

Hello,
New to this forum.
Does anyone have the latest diagram/schematic for the Twenty Dual?
Been searching the internet and have found different layouts from 2004 to 2010.
Thanks, Tim

[heavensthunder]

Hey borsanova, a little confused on your diagram regarding the 3 way switch and the rendition that dw3000 provided. Is the "ground" from the 3 way switch supposed to go to the "hot" output on the jack? If so, what happens with center position on the 3 way switch?

[newey]

Hey borsanova, a little confused on your diagram regarding the 3 way switch and the rendition that dw3000 provided. Is the "ground" from the 3 way switch supposed to go to the "hot" output on the jack? If so, what happens with center position on the 3 way switch?

HT-

Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!

Borsanova popped back in last week for the first time in 6 years. It might well be another 6 years before we hear back from him again.

In looking back at dw3000's drawing, I think you're right- he's showing the chassis ground lug for the 3-way connected to the jack instead of the center lug. I'm surprised that no one caught that before, especially since I "signed off" on his diagram back when.

Understand that this is a complex wiring, and dw3000's version has not been built AFAIK. JohnH's version has been built, successfully, by others, so we know that diagram works and is correct. If you're building this, I'd use JohnH's version.

[sumgai]

Jan 25, 2017 6:36:05 GMT -5 newey said:

Borsanova popped back in last week for the first time in 6 years. It might well be another 6 years before we hear back from him again.

Oh Gawd, I hope it won't be so long a time before he next shows up!   borsanova is(/was?) one of the more detailed designers we've seen here in The NutzHouse - it's a travesty that he doesn't come around on a regular basis.

borsa, if you're peeking in, please make it a habit, eh? Like more often than once a year, right?!






sumgai

[borsanova]

I apologize for my long absence. But after I've completed my guitars I've moved on to totally different projects.
To tell you how distant: Currently I'm writing a historic novel. Now that you made me think about it: the process and result is quite similar to my wirings: intricate and most complete. I should be writing the Epilogue now, but I got a little writing block, that's why I'm here.

In any case, it's a while that I'm out of wiring and I sometimes even fail to understand my old diagrams.
I'm glad that I remembered at least my password for guitarnuts, but it took me four tries to enter and I had to prove to be actually human.

Anyway, my Twenty-Dual Master (which I built) is still clear in my head, so I'll try to help if I can. You find my latest version on page one of this thread.
I'm not totally sure about the Twenty Dual Mix, which I never built.

The main difference between my diagram and that of John is that I show the guitar from the top, in a front view as if you were looking through the wood, and JohnH shows it from the back. I know that this is a bit strange, because when you're doing the wiring you're always forced to think it upside down. I was only starting then, trying to conceive what was possible, without thinking that I'd actually have to wire it. If you find that difficult you might simply download the file, open it with a graphic editor and flip it upside down.
Another problem in my diagram is that it has no wire colours specified, but JohnH has provided some guidance on page one.

Now to address your questions: The 3-way-switch and the jack are all original. You need to do nothing on those.

Let me know if there is more. I'll try to show up from time to time then, not only when I encounter a writing block.

[link8417]

I'm new here, and I saw the 20 dual master on a Wikipedia article of wiring mods and was intrigued. I'm doing a variation of it using Seymour Duncan Triple Shots, which are pickup rings with built in switches that have coil splits for both coils to allow for 4 different sounds for each humbucker (Split to Slug, Split to Screw, Parallel, and Series). Is there any way I can get John's Series wiring diagram (The one where both pickups have individual volume and tone controls while in series)? It doesn't seem to want to show up on my computer, and I would like to use that for reference for my mod. I'm going for the full splitting/parallel for each pickup and Series and phase for my guitar. Thanks, and nice work!

[newey]

link-

Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!

It doesn't seem to want to show up on my computer, and I would like to use that for reference for my mod. I'm going for the full splitting/parallel for each pickup and Series and phase for my guitar.

As of last week, all of our images hosted through photobucket.com no longer appear in the forum, as Photobucket changed their TOS to a paid model- and they want $400per year to be able to display one's images to 3rd party sites. There is a further explanation of the issue in the "References" section under "Lost Links".

Individual members are going to have to manually restore their images, one by one. As suggested in the other thread, send JohnH a PM and hopefully he can resurrect the images in question.

[JohnH]

Jul 4, 2017 14:33:26 GMT -5 newey said:

link-

Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!

It doesn't seem to want to show up on my computer, and I would like to use that for reference for my mod. I'm going for the full splitting/parallel for each pickup and Series and phase for my guitar.

As of last week, all of our images hosted through photobucket.com no longer appear in the forum, as Photobucket changed their TOS to a paid model- and they want $400per year to be able to display one's images to 3rd party sites. There is a further explanation of the issue in the "References" section under "Lost Links".

Individual members are going to have to manually restore their images, one by one. As suggested in the other thread, send JohnH a PM and hopefully he can resurrect the images in question.

I've restored my images that were in this thread. I've also gone through the other schematic threads where I started them, and there are a few others for LP designs.

[toddmaxx]

Jan 22, 2007 6:09:19 GMT -5 JohnH said:

B

Your parallel/single switch is clever. I like how you can have that, and still get the combinations of single coil modes when you want them.The LP-16 that I found is distorted on the site. I would like to try both. I am new to wiring guitars so I started researching the JP wiring but I think that these are far superior. I have ordered what I believe are the correct parts but any specifics would help. Also, can I ground the pots the same way that they are done in the JP wiring? My p/p pots have a single terminal on the end that the orange and black pickup wires seem to connect. Is this correct or are they soldered to the pots?  Thank you for your time and ideas. *email address redacted*      Todd

My main suggestions for improvement would be to put the tone controls on the pickup side of the volume control, where they can interact with the pups consitently at all volumes. Otherwise, as volumes are reduced, the impedance seen by the tone control rises greatly, and the tone control will cut much more deeply. For simlar reasons, I question the use of the reverse volume controls in series, where turning them down adds lot of resistance to the output impedance, resulting in the cable capacitance cutting more deeply into treble. I think ChrisK has a design where in series mode, the reverse volume controls become just a bypass to the pup, without the added resistance.

John

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Staff Note: I'll attempt to separate the quote from the reply as best I can, using the original post which was quoted as a reference. For privacy reasons, the email address has been redacted.
--Retread

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Jan 22, 2007 6:09:19 GMT -5 JohnH said:

B

Your parallel/single switch is clever. I like how you can have that, and still get the combinations of single coil modes when you want them.

The LP-16 that I found is distorted on the site. I would like to try both. I am new to wiring guitars so I started researching the JP wiring but I think that these are far superior. I have ordered what I believe are the correct parts but any specifics would help. Also, can I ground the pots the same way that they are done in the JP wiring? My p/p pots have a single terminal on the end that the orange and black pickup wires seem to connect. Is this correct or are they soldered to the pots?  Thank you for your time and ideas. *email address redacted*      Todd

Jan 22, 2007 6:09:19 GMT -5 JohnH said:

My main suggestions for improvement would be to put the tone controls on the pickup side of the volume control, where they can interact with the pups consitently at all volumes. Otherwise, as volumes are reduced, the impedance seen by the tone control rises greatly, and the tone control will cut much more deeply. For simlar reasons, I question the use of the reverse volume controls in series, where turning them down adds lot of resistance to the output impedance, resulting in the cable capacitance cutting more deeply into treble. I think ChrisK has a design where in series mode, the reverse volume controls become just a bypass to the pup, without the added resistance.

John

[newey]

toddmaxx:

Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!

You used the "quote box" to quote not only JohnH but yourself, and I can't tell what part of your post is your question(s) versus JohnH. Please just re-ask your questions, don't worry about quoting anyone else for now.