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Post by rabidgerry on Oct 5, 2009 6:06:30 GMT -5
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Post by rabidgerry on Oct 14, 2009 9:26:02 GMT -5
What about this then? I was just wingin' this I hope its right, didn't really know what I was doing just applied some sorta logic to the 4 poles I guess. Still waiting on my 4pdt switches arriving.  |
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Post by sumgai on Oct 14, 2009 12:39:19 GMT -5
Gerry, While that looks nice, it's lacking in one detail: what kind of switch is this, exactly? If it's a true 4PDT, then it only flips two ways (no center position), and all you've done is force the Bridge to be always on while in parallel mode.... probably not what you intended. If it's a 4P3T center off (on-off-on for all 4 poles), then you've got a problem with the ground connection of the Bridge and Neck pickups - in the center postion, they aren't connected to anything. Nor does the Middle pup's hot lead end up anywhere useful. Alas, all is lost.  If it's a 4P3T center on (on-on-on), then you might be in business. It's common practice to draw tiny arrows inside of the switch to denote which way the connections go when in the center position. There's durn few Electrical Engineers here in the NutzHouse, which is why you see so many diagrams that don't follow convention. Don't worry about it, as long as most of us understand what you're trying to tell us, it's all good in the end.  But you can't make too many assumptions about what will be "understandable" to other Nutz, sometimes you gotta fill in the blanks for them!  Since you haven't yet received the switches you bought, we'll wait until you get them in your hands, and can check them out with your multimeter. I'm hoping that you got the more-or-less normal on-on-on version that follows the top-middle diagram in Chris's Templates post, as found here: guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=modules&action=display&thread=3760Note that right next to that drawing is the so-called Kent Armstrong switch. If you got one of those by mistake/accident/on purpose, then I think you'll be OK wiring-wise, but your wallet will probably go on strike, they're more expensive than what you need for this particular mod. Let us know what you find out, OK? sumgai |
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Post by rabidgerry on Oct 15, 2009 9:08:22 GMT -5
Sorry this 4pdt switch was a diagram and used from somewhere on the net. The Switches I've purchased are on/on. They have the same amount of tabs as this diagram from what I can tell. Check these (scroll to the bottom of the page when you open link) cgi.ebay.co.uk/PKG4-Heavy-Duty-4P....id=p3286.c0.m14 these are the switches I bought, they're on/on from what I can tell. Hope I aint made a wrong purchase they still aint arrived. dam I didn't realise I needed on/on/on, I just used Gerry Logic for this diagram |
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Post by rabidgerry on Oct 15, 2009 9:21:05 GMT -5
DAMMMMM!!!
Anyone one want 4pdt switches? I got 6 coming my way!!! These switches I bought wont work, I understand where I messed up.
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Post by newey on Oct 15, 2009 9:37:42 GMT -5
Gerry-
If you bought them from a retailer, check their return policy.
I've got a whole box full of switches I've ordered, then didn't use, either because I ordered wrong, or because the project evolved in a different direction afterwards. I always kept 'em, figuring "someday I"ll use it". In retrospect, I wish I'd returned most of them.
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Post by sumgai on Oct 15, 2009 23:43:23 GMT -5
Extra parts might have an easier time finding a new home in The Hock Shop. But you know me..... you can never have too many spare parts on hand!  |
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Post by rabidgerry on Oct 19, 2009 9:09:44 GMT -5
Majorly p  d here!!! The dam switches aren't what I thought they'd be but they still aren't the right kind!! They are: ON/OFF/ON ahhhhhhhhh!!!!  |
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Post by rabidgerry on Oct 23, 2009 7:36:03 GMT -5
This is the diagram with humbucker seires/parallel switch implemented. The wiring on the 4P switch still needs adjusted and I may have the green and white wires on the humbucker series/parallel switch in wrong place (the green wire may need to go on the centre pole facing the white I've read too many conflicting series/parallel diagrams to know) As it stands for the humbucker I have installed Red is HOT, Black is earth, and green and white are the two coil ends.  |
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Post by sumgai on Oct 23, 2009 15:38:35 GMT -5
Gerry,
First the good news - your ser/par switch is wired correctly, it'll do what you want.
(EDIT: Sorry, but I've had to strike the bit about using a K.A. switch - see my following post.)
Second, the better news - your circuit will work with either the standard 4P3T switch (on-on-on) or the Kent Armstrong variant (on-on/off-on). However, as you show your layout, the physical relationship between the poles needs to change, so I'll have to come up with a drawing (more likely, a pair of drawings) for that. But for what it's worth, you can purchase either only the one kind of switch as you can find, or as your wallet can withstand.
I'll get back to you on this, but it may not be until tomorrow, when the other half is out of my hair for nearly a full day! ;D
sumgai
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Post by sumgai on Oct 24, 2009 18:37:41 GMT -5
OK, it's the next day, let's see what we have here.... Uh oh, things are looking a bit grim for the good guys. I seem to have contracted a case of opto-rectal inversions.   I hit an impassé during my attempt to make the Kent Armstrong switch work. After many hours of  and  I'm forced to conclude that it won't do the job, at least not without a very large compromise. Either the cap is in the circuit for both parallel (not Bridge on) and series, or it's never in the circuit. In which case, a DP3T switch could be used instead!! Here's what I came up with for a non-Armstrong 4P3T switch. Keep in mind that there are two common arrangements, 2 x 2 and staggered, so I've drawn both of them, just to be complete.   They operate the same, but the middle two poles are reversed, that's all. As with the K.A. switch, dropping the cap obviates the need for one pole, which gives us a DP3T. As discussed before on these forums, such a beast is often mis-named as a DPDT, on-on-on. Whatever they call it, this type is pretty common, much more so than the 4P3T, and a lot cheaper too! Just something to consider. I'll not "analyze" the signal structure while in series mode. I have a feeling, but it's only that, a feeling, that positions 2 and 4 will sound pretty much like position 3 - Middle pup only. I think the only two interesting tones will be in 1 and 5, the definite series connections. Sorry if I've mislead anyone with my previous post! In fact, it's been awhile since I've done this, so let me dust off an old policy, still in force for one and all. If you are a non-USA forum member, and you want something from a supplier that won't send it to you because you're "outside the USA", or perhaps they want an arm, a leg, your first born child, and a note from your mother, then take heart. I will be more than happy to purchase the item for you, have it shipped to my house, then turn around and mail it to you. If you don't specify how to ship it, I'll use the USPS, as it's almost always the cheapest way to go, no matter where in the world I might send it. Others here have taken me up on this offer, so don't worry (too much ). HTH sumgai |
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Post by rabidgerry on Oct 26, 2009 14:04:05 GMT -5
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH and double ahhhhhhhhh!! I just bought a Kent Switch!!! Its the only 4P3T i've saw in the UK. The only other switches I've spotted are 4PDT which I own 4 off already!!!! AHHHHHHHH I've never spotted a regular 4P3T switch anywhere else, after a long time searching the internet (I really tried). |
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Post by D2o on Oct 26, 2009 14:11:07 GMT -5
Sorry if I've mislead anyone with my previous post! In fact, it's been awhile since I've done this, so let me dust off an old policy, still in force for one and all. If you are a non-USA forum member, and you want something from a supplier that won't send it to you because you're "outside the USA", or perhaps they want an arm, a leg, your first born child, and a note from your mother, then take heart. I will be more than happy to purchase the item for you, have it shipped to my house, then turn around and mail it to you. If you don't specify how to ship it, I'll use the USPS, as it's almost always the cheapest way to go, no matter where in the world I might send it. Others here have taken me up on this offer, so don't worry (too much ). HTH sumgai And he even knows what switch you need.D2o |
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Post by rabidgerry on Oct 26, 2009 14:18:22 GMT -5
I'm all confused now  dunno what to do, I can't have the global series/parallel wiring without the cap but then again I've never spotted a 4p3t switch that is of respectable size other than the KENT switch. totally dunno what to do, Dam Kent armstrong catering for brian may!! The way it stands at the moment I'm just going to implement the bridge on and the series/parallel humbucker switch. I've no problem adding two switches and drilling two holes. I hate doing things if they aint right so I'm not having a half assed s-none mod where the cap aint in there or else is in there all the time.  (sell the kent on ebay may be, £15 is a lot of cashola when your outta work) |
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Post by sumgai on Oct 26, 2009 15:36:56 GMT -5
Gerry, Truly, I'm sorry for having mislead you. I figured, after your last PM to me, that you'd wait a moment to see what I'd come up with, diagram-wise. Of course, it took me the better part of nearly two days to finish the job, so I can understand your chagrin, when compared to your desire to get things rolling. (Time off from work, for whatever reason, is good practice time.) Tell ya what. I'll take that K.A. off yer hands in trade for what you need, if that floats yer boat. But I freely admit, that'll add at least 10 days (probably closer to 20), to your waiting time. If you wanna go back to Plan A, using two switches, that's doable, as we've already seen. Just remember that issue of Bridge On and Series at the same time. A few "Ooops" moments, and you'll have that drilled into your muscle memory. BTW, you certainly do not need to have a capacitor in the circuit in order to make a series connection for two (or more) pickups. I dunno where you got that idea, but if you look around at some of the other threads here on this Forum alone, let alone the whole World Wide Wait, you'll find beaucoup designs that give series and parallel with various kinds of switches, and all with no capacitor. (Or with, if you're still so inclined.) Here's one of my personal favorites. It even uses one of those mini-toggles you just got off of eBay! The first thing you'll see is a circuit with a Blend control. Read on, and you'll see that this can be eliminated, if so desired. But you'll also find that others have built the design as shown, and are loving it! Again, it's all up to you, I only toss it out there for your consideration. sumgai |
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Post by rabidgerry on Oct 27, 2009 9:13:21 GMT -5
Truly, I'm sorry for having mislead you. I figured, after your last PM to me, that you'd wait a moment to see what I'd come up with, diagram-wise. Of course, it took me the better part of nearly two days to finish the job, so I can understand your chagrin, when compared to your desire to get things rolling. (Time off from work, for whatever reason, is good practice time.) Relax man its not your fault I shoulda waited instead of behaving like a little kid greedy for more sweets!!(candy to you statesiders) You've had the kindness to help me along with this the whole time so I should be thanking you for even bothering (thank you!) BTW, you certainly do not need to have a capacitor in the circuit in order to make a series connection for two (or more) pickups. I dunno where you got that idea, but if you look around at some of the other threads here on this Forum alone, let alone the whole World Wide Wait, you'll find beaucoup designs that give series and parallel with various kinds of switches, and all with no capacitor. (Or with, if you're still so inclined.) i know I know, but I want all 5 of the global series wiring tones, I bought 3 caps for it an 0.01, and 0.005 and an 0.001!! I told you I was greedy ;D ;D ;D, I'm obsessed with having options at my disposal, it helps me in my quest for making "my own sound" even more unique, especially where I live, people daren't even raise their own string heights over here!! When I chat to them about guitar tec stuff they think I'm just weirdo. I sniffed out that these three mods will give me a lot more of what I like so I'm anxious to have all three series/parallel (global) series/parallel (bridge humbucker) bridge on Tell ya what. I'll take that K.A. off yer hands in trade for what you need, if that floats yer boat. But I freely admit, that'll add at least 10 days (probably closer to 20), to your waiting time. If you wanna go back to Plan A, using two switches, that's doable, as we've already seen. Just remember that issue of Bridge On and Series at the same time. A few "Ooops" moments, and you'll have that drilled into your muscle memory. Let me think about the trade. Its such a shame we can't get the Kent to work. Say I was to trade with you what size/sorta switch can you bag for me to do this mod with full working s-none and bridge on using a 4p3t switch? |
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Post by sumgai on Nov 5, 2009 2:48:53 GMT -5
rg,
I sent you a PM, check your Inbox.
sumgai
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Post by rabidgerry on Nov 5, 2009 8:57:31 GMT -5
 new and improved with sprinkles uhhhh its actually a little different from yours sumgai but I think it doesn't matter. Its like a mirror version, check if you please. I gots your original diagram if I am wrong. |
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Post by sumgai on Nov 5, 2009 11:29:40 GMT -5
rg, I was all set to slap you on the back, but sorry to say, no can do. You've had this misfortune (1 out of 2 chances) to select my diagram for a 2 x 2 configuration. As we've discussed in recent PM's, the switch I'm sending you has the staggered configuration (as seen in the Datasheets provided by Digi-Key). Back to the drawing board for you! ;D And for the record, you can't just mirror the switch contacts. You actually did that here, and the results were, the Bridge on would have happened only in Series mode, and the Middle would have gone through the cap when in Parallel mode. Probably not what you wanted, I'm guessing. If you look at the diagram(s) I posted back on Page 5 of this thread, you can number the terminals like on Digi-Key's Datasheet (rotated, of course): 3 - 2 - 1 6 - 5 - 4 9 - 8 - 7 12 - 11 - 10 Since we have the staggered layout, I can tell you the following: 2 and 1 go to the Bridge On jumper on the 5-way pickup selector; 6 and 11 go to the Middle positive lead; 5 goes to the Bridge and Neck negative leads; 4 goes to ground; 10 goes to the Middle pup terminal on the 5-way pickup selector; and 10 and 12 go to the cap. 7, 8 and 9 are unused. (You could, if you wanted to, use 7, 8 and 9 instead of 1, 2 and 3.) HTH! sumgai |
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Post by sumgai on Nov 8, 2009 13:37:17 GMT -5
A simple bump to let one and all know the status. I've received the magic switch from Digi-Key, and tomorrow it will get on the slow boat to Ireland, routed via an even slower boat to China, I'm sure. (The local Post Office was closed by the time the switch was dropped on my doorstep on Saturday.) Gerry figures that what with looming Postal Service strikes where he lives, it may be a "wee bit o' time" before he can get this project completed. I'm sure he'll keep us posted when he's done.  sumgai |
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Post by rabidgerry on Nov 9, 2009 11:17:36 GMT -5
Balls!! Ok Back to photof__kinshop for me it is then!! Sorry I PM'd you there before I checked the main thread. I'll have the diagram done to the staggered layout asap. As for numbering of the lugs on a switch!!! Good way to blow my mind. I'll give it a shot ;D |
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Post by rabidgerry on Nov 9, 2009 11:21:36 GMT -5
rg, I was all set to slap you on the back, but sorry to say, no can do. You've had this misfortune (1 out of 2 chances) to select my diagram for a 2 x 2 configuration. As we've discussed in recent PM's, the switch I'm sending you has the staggered configuration (as seen in the Datasheets provided by Digi-Key). Back to the drawing board for you! ;D And for the record, you can't just mirror the switch contacts. You actually did that here, and the results were, the Bridge on would have happened only in Series mode, and the Middle would have gone through the cap when in Parallel mode. Probably not what you wanted, I'm guessing. If you look at the diagram(s) I posted back on Page 5 of this thread, you can number the terminals like on Digi-Key's Datasheet (rotated, of course): 3 - 2 - 1 6 - 5 - 4 9 - 8 - 7 12 - 11 - 10 Since we have the staggered layout, I can tell you the following: 2 and 1 go to the Bridge On jumper on the 5-way pickup selector; 6 and 11 go to the Middle positive lead; 5 goes to the Bridge and Neck negative leads; 4 goes to ground; 10 goes to the Middle pup terminal on the 5-way pickup selector; and 10 and 12 go to the cap. 7, 8 and 9 are unused. (You could, if you wanted to, use 7, 8 and 9 instead of 1, 2 and 3.) HTH! sumgai OK i GET IT NOW sorry was a bit slow, the whole "rotate it" made me brown my trunks!! |
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Post by sumgai on Nov 9, 2009 14:32:23 GMT -5
rg,
That's OK, so long as you don't raise your Chinese laundry bill!
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Post by rabidgerry on Nov 18, 2009 9:15:15 GMT -5
I'm thinking this is how the diagram should be wired with a staggered 4P3T switch  and let us not forget the robbery which befolded the belated switch that Sumgai posted to myself leaving me well and truly screwed. |
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Post by sumgai on Nov 18, 2009 16:32:28 GMT -5
rg, Your latest drawing has it all correct, you may carry on with dispatch! (Well, there is that series/parallel label which is pointing to a blank switch section. ) Any luck yet with the Postal "authorities" over there? (BTW, folks, this is the first time I've had a glitch in the shipping of parts and pieces to our non-USA friends. Sorta blows my mind. ) sumgai |
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Post by rabidgerry on Jan 2, 2010 10:21:08 GMT -5
Okey doke!! I pulled the mod off after much waiting for appropriate times to carry out the operation and waiting for switches and what not to arrive in the post. I will show my final diagram soon as.... and take some pics. I had trouble doing the series/split/parallel switch, I had two wires that needed swapped (the green and the white in the above diagram) so this has meant my diagram needed ammended. I'll post it soon. Basically It was all working bar one postion on the bridge humbucker series/split/parallel switch. Parallel was not engaging so after swapping the green and white and got it all working. Thanks for all the help kids I'm very happy with my 24 sounds (I'll post them in a proper diagram also) and special thanks to SUMGAI for mega patience and uh basically walking me through everything and being top font of all knowledge.  |
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Post by rabidgerry on Feb 1, 2010 12:09:10 GMT -5
Ok here it is the final working diagram with the correct wires to the bridge humbucker series/paralle switch. I hope someone else uses this someday!!  |
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Post by sumgai on Feb 1, 2010 12:53:00 GMT -5
Ah, closure at last! Time for a +1. ;D Thanks Gerry, for that, and for putting up with the time it took to make it all work. I'm sure someone down the line here will appreciate it. Now, can you rig up some sound samples? (After the shielding job is done and you've put it back together, of course.) sumgai |
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Post by D2o on Feb 1, 2010 15:17:17 GMT -5
rg,
I gave you crap where I felt you had it coming, so it's only fair that I give you credit where you've earned it.
You really stuck with this project ... good job.
D2o
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Post by rabidgerry on Feb 2, 2010 14:11:44 GMT -5
No problem D2o, I dunno if I remember you givin me crap or not!!! hahahahahah but its nice to have you gimme credit after all that!!! I couldn't a dunnit without the main man
SUMGAI helpin me along!! I was asking for a lot in a specific sorta design (picky may be) but I wanted it like that for greed, for tonal switching heaven, and I was determined to get it!! And I did. Now I'll be experimenting with the cap values on the series/parallel (global) switch.
I've a 0.01 in there right now, but I got some 0.0047's off Sumgai and I'm ready to give them a go!!
After I finish shielding the behemoth strat I've created!!
Thanks again for patience and help all who did!! ye haa!! I
rish modder rule!!
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But you can't make too many assumptions about what will be "understandable" to other Nutz, sometimes you gotta fill in the blanks for them! 
I hit an impassé during my attempt to make the Kent Armstrong switch work. After many hours of 
